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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon

I see absolutely no reason why transforming a person into a dragon could possibly go wrong!
Then again I am currently on a "For science!" kick So I may be biased.
 
picklepikkl said:
Thought experiment for the people calling this a meme plan:

If it were a spell that summoned a dragon for an hour to fight for you, would it still be a meme plan to make an item to do this? If not, what makes this different?

People are memeing around it, as @Ericwinter said, but I don't think that's the same as it being a meme plan. Besides:

Can't say this isn't creative.
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Seriously guys.

This isn't a meme plan, it's a perfectly legit plan that also happens to have a lot of meme potential, which imo, just makes it even more appealing.

It allows full interdiction of flyers all across the eight peaks, is honestly gonna be a better counter to another dragon than a lightning tower would be, has a lot of studying potential, and its memetastic.

It's the best of all worlds really.
 
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Ericwinter said:
The one problem I see with eventually turning into a dragon is whether it might interfere with plans for ascension into a goddess.

It's really not a meme plan. The memes came into it after the plan was made on fairly logical grounds and gained enough support that it actually seemed possible. Honestly, the "meme plan" comments seem more like a form of fear-mongering than anything.
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Agreed. This plan is not a meme. Producing a dragon to fight for us is legitimately the most flexible and effective defensive system yet proposed. It just also happens to have substantial memetic potential.
ninjafish said:
probably gonna work better than just shooting lightning at it
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Actually, could someone who knows WFRP math out the damage a lightning tower can do and compare it to a dragon?
 
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No more of this 'meme plan' business. People are giving their reasons for thinking it's a valid plan, and while you can disagree with those reasons, calling it a 'meme plan' instead of addressing the reasons they give is dismissive and rude.
 
NSMS said:
Looking at the reasons a lot of people have given for their votes and having read the whole discussion, I can safely say that even if it's not a meme plan it certainly comes off as one to me. And even if I'm wrong and it's not, there have been enough not-so-subtle hints from BoneyM that the dragon plan won't be as clean or simple as 'use altar, instant dragon' that I couldn't support it anyway.
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The last part I can understand, and that's cool, but which reasons are you talking about here? The ones which were actually made to support the plan, or jokes people made having already agreed to it for fun?
 
Angelform said:
Urge to make an airship-portable Battle Tower… rising.
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Is this a thing we can seriously do?

Because if we can buy an airship off of the Dwarves, and get a tower-grade targetable any-time-of-day-or-night Burning Shadows spell, and a powerful bonus to counter spelling attached to it, we could totally fly around annihilating armies.
 
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You know, I'm really not appreciating people calling this a meme vote in order to dismiss its effectiveness. To be frank, for the actual purpose of the assignment (Anti-Dragon specifically, with other capacities a bonus), it's simply just the best suggestion we've had. Dragon Breath is 2d6 hits, the same as chain lightning, so you can have the big lightning bolt cake and eat it too, even.

That it's getting derided because we dared to enjoy the idea that a weapon meant to deal with a dragon might be cool is pretty annoying.
 
guyfromtheplace1 said:
Is this a thing we can seriously do?

Because if we can but an airship off of the Dwarves, and get a tower-grade targetable any-time-of-day-or-night Burning Shadows spell, and a powerful bonus to counter spelling attached to it, we could totally fly around annihilating armies.
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if a dreadnought would break belegars budget than an airship capable of carrying a murder tower definitely would.
 
The way I see it, Dragon on Dragon is the only thing only Mathilde can bring to the table.

Uranon's Thunderbolt is fundamentally just another projectile to launch at enemies, and the dwarves are not really lacking in that regard.

Turning a regular soldier into something that can wrestle with a dragon though, that's an opportunity only we can bring.
 
ninjafish said:
if a dreadnought would break belegars budget than an airship capable of carrying a murder tower definitely would.
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A flying tower is only thirty favor, if I recall correctly. If we chipped in for that he could cover the cost of the weapons we'd put on it.

It'd be basically unsteerable and pretty fragile for a flying thing, though, so I wouldn't recommend it as a weapon against other flying units.
 
Hey, I first went for knowledge bomb, then Skavenslayer, them versatile.

At first, I thought the dragon alter was ridiculous, but the more I thought about it, the more it grew on me.

It's a boosted altar, it'll have paranoid protections, it's mobile enough the be hidden away and taken to the battlefield as necessary. A dragon that would instinctively know how to fight.

This is a decent plan. Sure, it relies on good rolls, but so does everything we do. Sure, if you mess up it'll mess you up, but war is war. Our volunteers will know what they sign up for.

Just think of what the undumgi have done and seen Mathilde do. A few of them were even Stirlanders, not to mention the halflings who saw how Asarnil and Deathfang fought at Drakenhof. This is doable.
 
picklepikkl said:
Thought experiment for the people calling this a meme plan:

If it were a spell that summoned a dragon for an hour to fight for you, would it still be a meme plan to make an item to do this? If not, what makes this different?

People are memeing around it, as @Ericwinter said, but I don't think that's the same as it being a meme plan. Besides:

Can't say this isn't creative.
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kfrar said:
If you think the plan is bad, please, demonstrate to the thread why it's actually bad - because as far as I'm concerned, the plan stands up well on its own merits.
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  1. BoneyM's stated that using KoD on a non-Amber is rolling the dice, suggesting it's inherently more unreliable than an item that just does battle magic (or, to respond to picklepikkl, just summoning a dragon).
  2. There's a risk of someone being trapped in dragon form if they run up against casters, which has completely unknown long-term consequences.
  3. BoneyM's stated most citizens of the empire would see turning into a dragon as the same thing as dying, and the humans of K8P were empire citizens and thus likely have that same mindset. Asking someone to sacrifice their life to protect the Karak- whether it's actually true or not- leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
  4. It's something that requires human help and aid, to the point that dwarves literally can't use it themselves. Not can't use as effectively, not can use but it was made by shoddy (human) craftmanship, can't use at all. Considering this is their home and the long-term unreliability of humans, I dislike that.
 
I'm gonna be honest, I started voting for it not because I thought it would work that well, but because dragons are awesome, and we need more. But the discussion since has actually convinced me that it's at least not any worse than the other options, and it fulfills Belegars goal of being something unexpected. I mean, you don't expect that when you're facing/attacking a dwarfhold.

One point that has not been considered: The dragonstone might have multiple uses in quickish succession, in which cases it would definitely be the best options. The Emperor dragon will win a fight against a single dragon, but two? Gets a lot more dicey.

It also has the advantage of being more generally useful, because dragon works against most things, and it's somewhat portable, so it's not necessarily just a defense. For something with a chunky investment, that's pretty nice. We should still get an AA tower, but it doesn't have to be an expensive battlemagic using one.
guyfromtheplace1 said:
Is this a thing we can seriously do?

Because if we can but an airship off of the Dwarves, and get a tower-grade targetable any-time-of-day-or-night Burning Shadows spell, and a powerful bonus to counter spelling attached to it, we could totally fly around annihilating armies.
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The idea has come up. I don't think we got a WOG on feasibility.
 
[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon

I'm tentatively convinced- assuming we can find a set of volunteers, that is. While I'm unsure that the spell will work on dwarves without interfering with their magic resistance, I suspect that some of the Umdungi would volunteer in an emergency.

BoneyM said:
Most citizens of the Empire would look at transformation into a dragon to be equivalent to dying.
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NSMS said:
BoneyM's stated most citizens of the empire would see turning into a dragon as the same thing as dying, and the humans of K8P were empire citizens and thus likely have that same mindset. Asking someone to sacrifice their life to protect the Karak- whether it's actually true or not- leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
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I imagine most soldiers would consider any plan that involves them fighting a dragon as basically sending them to die.
 
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