Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Ericwinter]

"You merged with an orc god? Huurrrgh... Okay, I'm okay. Please don't tell me how you managed that, I'd like to keep my lunch where it is.

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Technically, he merged with us, and we just took advantage of that fact. It wasn't our fault, really. We're innocent, your honor.

 

[veekie]

Well, not just cost. There were a number of advantages (didn't rely on the strength of the wielder, didn't tire someone out as much to use over and over, much quicker to train someone to use) but the biggest is simply that they're much deadlier, especially against armor. As far as I'm aware, Warhammer actually demonstrates this with the Empire, with handguns being armor-piercing and bows... not.

Of course, once you get into magical elf-bows with enchanted offbrand-mythril arrows and whatnot, the calculus changes.

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Actually no, early guns didn't armor pierce well at all. Keep in mind a bullet was a soft round-ish lead ball which, if its not going fast enough tended to 'splash' against steel plate armor, and this remains true without steel jacketed or high caliber rounds even today. Granted, with enough velocity you're still hitting the target hard enough to make their head ring through a helmet.

By contrast arrows have a hardened steel point which, when launched with basically your entire upper body musculature, is hitting armor with maybe twice or thrice the impact force of a spear, concentrated into a smaller point.
Well made armor would prevent it from getting a straight hit, but you need a lot more metal to stop an arrow than a bullet.

So why guns? Well, training someone to be that swole is a lot harder than getting 2-3 more average dudes with a gun, most opponents aren't armored significantly, and you have more problems individually with hitting the target than killing it.
So bows are superior for an army when you have a lot of swole and extremely accurate guys, guns are superior when you have a lot of average guys, and they're about par when you're working with a body of swole but not particularly accurate guys.

Which neatly breaks down to:
-Elves - Swole, extremely accurate. Bows, hands down.
-Hunters/Woodsmen - Swole, somewhat accurate due to lifelong practice with the bow as their primary livelihood. Bows, advantage.
-Farmer Levy - Swole, but not accurate at all. About par.
-Urban Levy - Neither swole nor accurate. Guns, hands down.

If I'm following what you're saying, it's that the Elves will think the Ulricans massacred the villagers, the Empire thinks the Elves disappeared them and the truth is the villagers just fucked off to get out of the situation, led by the Wolves.

My objection to this is that unless the Ar-Ulric has sent his men to go burn down and destroy the empty villages after the fact (and no Elves came across any empty villages between the evacuation and the destruction) then there's no way anyone seeing the villages will think they were attacked. Even cutting down running peasants leaves marks. So the Elves must be assuming the villagers are being relocated at least in some fashion, so why would they care where they're going to such an extent it would undermine the whole alliance/conversion thing?

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So long as they don't have to officially take notice of the fact the peasants weren't killed, they probably don't care, I think. They're not Dawi.

That said, having to officially take notice could cause undesirable political implications, so maybe be real cautious about revealing that information anyway.

Easiest way to untangle this knot might be for the peasants in question to be able to offer the Elgi some form of recompense, 'cause I'm pretty sure the Elgi aren't actually worse about grudges than the Dawi, and even the dwarves have ways to end things before violence happens. Under the circumstances, we might be able to wrangle some of the credit for helping with the Waystone Network be counted as recompense on the part of the Nordlander peasantry.

That... probably requires higher skill in diplomacy, though.

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The crux is that the elves want them gone. They don't care how.
They're gone and the forest is reclaiming the villages, no reason to check further.
However, it'd be a breach of alliance when you tell them you'd "get rid" of the settlers and then instead evacuated them.

That said theres nothing distinguishing the Ulrikadrin former Nordlanders unless you were personally familiar with them. Even if Eonir walked in front of one they wouldn't know, Nordlanders are everywhere, why would they think theres any connection to the lost villagers?

The solution is to let their origins be forgotten.
As it happens, they live a half day march away from Eight Peaks, theres basically no reason for the Eonir to ever encounter them.

Well look at it from their perspective... Humans are on and individual level worse at everything than members of the elder races (barring heroes) and their two claims to fame as far as I can see are inventing necromancy and being the favored servants of the Dark Gods.

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I figure the human perk is that they got nothing, so they're willing to try everything.
Most of the time it ends up with the person trying hurt, humiliated or dead, but sometimes you can get a true gem out of it.

No. People keep making this mistake. The elves predate the Winds of Magic. The elves were built to manipulate whatever pre-magic energies that the Old Ones made available though the geomantic web.

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Probably resembled High Magic a lot in nature if so. Braiding High Magic out of the Winds is putting Humpty Dumpty back together again.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

Personally, my reason is that I despise the "person/ race is born always chaotic evil" on a moral level.

Certain exceptions do exist. If they are literally evil parts of one's personality that need to be whole (see the heartless, or the noodies) it is acceptable. If they are always feral monsters without a mind, I guess I can see the neccessity of them being mooks, or a tide of unstopable enemies in a more horror story. If they are controlled by a hive mind, then they are in essence one evil person. If they are brainwashed, magically or not, then the dark cog or whatever plot device is to blame. If they have to choose to be evil to join the race, then its not so much a race as it is a club with form reshaping privilleges. If they are avatars/manifestations of some higher power , see hive mind, it applies even if they have unique personalities. If something evil has a grasp on their souls? see bbrainwashing.

But if they are born as evil sapient individuals with no chance to be otherwise? That makes me, viscerally, want to say no. And that extends to the way I rp and assume stuff too. And it may be that this is naive for Warhammer, but warhammer is oft dark for darkness sake, to the point of griimderp. But we have word of QM it is different in this instance, as it is theoretically possible to redeem a Skaven. And we have also seen in Qrech that it is possible for a Skaven to selflessly care for another (the pup) . And that is enough for me to push for it.

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Problem is, the setting doesn't exactly agree with you. I mean, Beastmen are the prime example--they are literally such an Always Chaotic Evil that they cannot tolerate civilization itself, of any kind, really. Greenskins, meanwhile, are kinda driven to war and violence partially from instinct and partially from magic/divine influence. While you can kind of condition and force an individual greenskin to be...not evil, I suppose, good luck getting that to stick when you scale it up and the Waaagh Field overrides all of your careful conditioning.

Chaos Dwarfs? I mean, if you got the Everqueen involved, she could maybe save one of them individually, but that's just from the taint of a dark god. Good luck changing their entire culture and society that's literally more evil than the Skaven Underempire and Norsca combined.

Skaven are probably the most interesting possible subversion, though. It's their society and culture that makes them evil, not their inherent instincts or divine influence.

 

[Mopman43]

Good luck changing their entire culture and society that's literally more evil than the Skaven Underempire and Norsca combined.

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...Okay, explain to me how the Chaos Dwarfs are more evil than the Skaven Underempire.

(Like, the Chaos Dwarfs are evil and all, but that's a pretty high bar...)

 

[Guile]

Spoiler: MathildeXKragg

You want to be headpatted by Kragg the Grim.

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Is that what the kids are calling it these days? Sorry, I haven't left my workshop in a couple of human lifetimes, so I'm not sure.

What Your Favourite Divided Loyalties Ship Says About You

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Spoiler: MathildeXKasmir

The most important thing in a relationship is someone who understands you (r talent for surviving being murdered).

Spoiler: MathildeXWilhelmina

You find sleeping on a pile of treasure like a dragon to be sexy, but you prefer to get it legally. Or at least, with a minimum amount of graft.

Spoiler: WilhelminaXAnton

Look, sometimes if you want things to line up. you have to pair the spares.

Spoiler: AntonXReinhild

You believe that explosions bring people together, not blow them apart.

Spoiler: MathildeXHeidi

You like heist movies. And you really liked Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

 

[Horium]

Skaven are probably the most interesting possible subversion, though. It's their society and culture that makes them evil, not their inherent instincts or divine influence.

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Actually, Horned Rat does make them evil. They are the same deal as Chaos Dwarfs.

Funnily enough, Southern Norsca and Druchii are the evil factions closest to being a valid candidate for redemption, for much the same reason you mentioned above.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Actually, Horned Rat does make them evil. They are the same deal as Chaos Dwarfs.

Funnily enough, Southern Norsca and Druchii are the evil factions closest to being a valid candidate for redemption, for much the same reason you mentioned above.

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Eh. The Druchii are...complicated. It is possible to like, grab a child and raise them as a normal person, but there is a fair bit of divine influence (and Chaotic influence, and magical influence) where they are now, and a bunch of them are very very dedicated to being evil because they've been at it for 5,000 years and have sort of gotten into the whole 'sunk costs' thing.

 

[Horium]

Eh. The Druchii are...complicated. It is possible to like, grab a child and raise them as a normal person, but there is a fair bit of divine influence (and Chaotic influence, and magical influence) where they are now, and a bunch of them are very very dedicated to being evil because they've been at it for 5,000 years and have sort of gotten into the whole 'sunk costs' thing.

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Well, yes. They are not born evil, that's the thing. Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs I think cannot be prevented from becoming evil due to Horned Rat and Hashut, respectively.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Well, yes. They are not born evil, that's the thing. Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs I think cannot be prevented from becoming evil due to Horned Rat and Hashut, respectively.

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By that logic the Druchii should be born evil due to the influence of either Slaanesh or Khaine. It's not like their society doesn't worship evil gods.

 

[Horium]

By that logic the Druchii should be born evil due to the influence of either Slaanesh or Khaine. It's not like their society doesn't worship evil gods.

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Not the same. Skaven and Dawi Zharr collectivelly basically have a "Pact" with Horned Rat/Hashut.

Khaine is a deity respected (if not outright worshipped) by Asrai and Asur as well. Afaik, neither he nor the rest of the Cyntherai engage in such agreements with entire races.

The Chaos Gods (including Slaanesh) have a "Pact" with Dragon-Ogres, for example, but not with men or Druchii.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Not the same. Skaven and Dawi Zharr collectivelly basically have a "Pact" with Horned Rat/Hashut.

Khaine is a deity respected (if not outright worshipped) by Asrai and Asur as well. Afaik, neither he nor the rest of the Cyntherai engage in such agreements with entire races.

The Chaos Gods (including Slaanesh) have a "Pact" with Dragon-Ogres, for example, but not with men or Druchii.

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This heavily depends on which version of canon you're going with. I'm pretty sure there was canon that had Morathi being an outright servant of Slaanesh and the Cult of Pleasure being worshippers of such to the point of submission, and I think there's been canon before that had the Druchii being basically used as Khaine's tools to prove his dominance over Asuryan, but I'm less sure of that one.

 

[veekie]

Not the same. Skaven and Dawi Zharr collectivelly basically have a "Pact" with Horned Rat/Hashut.

Khaine is a deity respected (if not outright worshipped) by Asrai and Asur as well. Afaik, neither he nor the rest of the Cyntherai engage in such agreements with entire races.

The Chaos Gods (including Slaanesh) have a "Pact" with Dragon-Ogres, for example, but not with men or Druchii.

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So best to think of Khaine as...hard liquor.
The Asur partake in moderation, and don't let it drive them.
The Druchii overindulge habitually and get culturally roaring drunk as respectable behavior. They could stop, but they won't, they enjoy it and don't want to stop being drunk.

The human Khaine cultists meanwhile decided its a replacement for water and die of liver failure.

 

[random_npc]

You're still frowning. "So you're willing to worship Ulric, without yet knowing why you're worshipping Ulric?"

She shrugs and smiles. "He has power, He is here, and He is not actively malevolent. That is enough for a foundation. We have plenty of time to get to know each other."

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So to go back to this, I think the conversion to urlric worship is genuine, but not typical. They worship him on their own terms rather than how humans worship him. They seem to have added him to their pantheon in a way that is consistent with their own view of faith and their relationship with their gods. This is very very different than how humans do it.

So whether or not their conversation counts as real remains a political question.

 

[notanautomaton]

So to go back to this, I think the conversion to urlric worship is genuine, but not typical. They worship him on their own terms rather than how humans worship him. They seem to have added him to their pantheon in a way that is consistent with their own view of faith and their relationship with their gods. This is very very different than how humans do it.

So whether or not their conversation counts as real remains a political question.

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However, this means that a major part of the equation is how big Ulric becomes in their pantheon. If he ends up as a primary god, the difference becomes academic.

 

[Ganurath]

The Druchii overindulge habitually and get culturally roaring drunk as respectable behavior. They could stop, but they won't, they enjoy it and don't want to stop being drunk.

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Helps that they keep stealing fresh livers from other people to keep from overdosing.

 

[Alliterate]

While there's a lot of WTF moments to digest, there's at least one unalloyed good for one of our personal contacts.

He looks uncomfortable. "I don't know yet. Things are complicated."

"Ulrican things?" He nods. "Want to talk about it later?" Another nod.

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"My family asked me to pass on what information I could," he admits. "I would like to prove to them I serve Ulric. But the more time I spend at Ulrikadrin, the more I wonder if they are His truer servants."

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We'll be able to reassure Hubert that the Winter Wolves continue to serve Ulric, straight from his worldly mouthpiece.

"He always was headstrong," he grumbles. "But I might have done similar, when I was his age. Tell him that it is not in doubt that he and his continue to serve Ulric."

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While I'm at it, a thought struck me. It's not probable, but...

All wolves are born of Ulric,

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"Very well," he says. "Let us speak as one faithful to another."

"As you say," is your very careful reply, and the Ar-Ulric purses his lips and closes his eyes for a moment.

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...could the Ar-Ulric be thinking we got Wolf from Ulric (from whom all Wolves spring, he holds), and we're thus a lay faithful or in some way in the favour of his Wolf god?
(Ranaldlaugh.wav)

 

[Robotninja]

...Okay, explain to me how the Chaos Dwarfs are more evil than the Skaven Underempire.

(Like, the Chaos Dwarfs are evil and all, but that's a pretty high bar...)

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They made an entirely new and more effective form of greenskin. With predictable results.

 

[Kyr'am]

They made an entirely new and more effective form of greenskin. With predictable results.

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I feel like that's not so much evil as stupid (Hanlon's Razor in action).

 

[Mopman43]

They made an entirely new and more effective form of greenskin. With predictable results.

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Like @Kyr'am said, that's more arrogance than evil. Like, the Elves have done worse out of arrogance. (They've also done better, which balances it out, of course)

It's certainly had an impact on the Dwarfs, and I'm sure the Chaos Dwarfs don't care about any harm done by Black Orcs with the exception of what they've suffered, but compared to the Skaven's... everything, it still doesn't make them worse.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Personally, my reason is that I despise the "person/ race is born always chaotic evil" on a moral level.

Certain exceptions do exist. If they are literally evil parts of one's personality that need to be whole (see the heartless, or the noodies) it is acceptable. If they are always feral monsters without a mind, I guess I can see the neccessity of them being mooks, or a tide of unstopable enemies in a more horror story. If they are controlled by a hive mind, then they are in essence one evil person. If they are brainwashed, magically or not, then the dark cog or whatever plot device is to blame. If they have to choose to be evil to join the race, then its not so much a race as it is a club with form reshaping privilleges. If they are avatars/manifestations of some higher power , see hive mind, it applies even if they have unique personalities. If something evil has a grasp on their souls? see bbrainwashing.

But if they are born as evil sapient individuals with no chance to be otherwise? That makes me, viscerally, want to say no. And that extends to the way I rp and assume stuff too. And it may be that this is naive for Warhammer, but warhammer is oft dark for darkness sake, to the point of griimderp. But we have word of QM it is different in this instance, as it is theoretically possible to redeem a Skaven. And we have also seen in Qrech that it is possible for a Skaven to selflessly care for another (the pup) . And that is enough for me to push for it.

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Honestly, with skaven it can be argued that it is a case of the race being brainwashed/conditioned to be evil.

The Problem is that the thing doing this theoretical conditioning is the god of all Skavendom and he is really really god at what he does.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

...Okay, explain to me how the Chaos Dwarfs are more evil than the Skaven Underempire.

(Like, the Chaos Dwarfs are evil and all, but that's a pretty high bar...)

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Chaos Dwarfs basically believe in enslaving everyone and everything, both mind, body, and soul. They have a society where backstabbing is expected, and they don't just play with daemons--they turn them into weapons, armor, and magical trinkets, some of which they sell to Chaos. It's deeply ingrained into their culture to dominate and enslave everything--whether it's orcs or daemons, or even each other.

I guess it's about par, really. The difference, I'd say, is that the Skaven Underempire doesn't magically taint its people into being evil, terrifying people through a terrifying god--you wouldn't find people like Qretch from the Chaos Dwarfs, I think.

Actually, Horned Rat does make them evil. They are the same deal as Chaos Dwarfs.

Funnily enough, Southern Norsca and Druchii are the evil factions closest to being a valid candidate for redemption, for much the same reason you mentioned above.

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Er, the Horned Rat doesn't touch all Skaven. The Horned Rat operates more like an elven or human god--it has significant effects on the most faithful/useful of servants, but it doesn't touch/taint them at/around birth (Hashut) or constantly influence them whenever there's a group of them together (Mork/Gork).

 

[Mopman43]

Chaos Dwarfs basically believe in enslaving everyone and everything, both mind, body, and soul. They have a society where backstabbing is expected, and they don't just play with daemons--they turn them into weapons, armor, and magical trinkets, some of which they sell to Chaos. It's deeply ingrained into their culture to dominate and enslave everything--whether it's orcs or daemons, or even each other.

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That's... basically no different from the Skaven. I don't think you could really call it worse.

I guess it's about par, really. The difference, I'd say, is that the Skaven Underempire doesn't magically taint its people into being evil, terrifying people through a terrifying god--you wouldn't find people like Qretch from the Chaos Dwarfs, I think.

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It... basically does? Like, Qretch has been relatively civil, but that's just as much about the level of power Mathilde has over him. If he had the chance, he'd stab us in the back to get away. Put a Chaos Dwarf in the same circumstances, I'm not sure they'd act all that different.


One difference that I think is significant- the Skaven cover a good portion of the world and have attempted to conquer it multiple times, and kill untold numbers of people in the attempts and in their day-to-day lives. The Chaos Dwarfs mostly just stick to the Dark Lands and inflict their misery on each other and the Greenskins.

 

[Robotninja]

One difference that I think is significant- the Skaven cover a good portion of the world and have attempted to conquer it multiple times, and kill untold numbers of people in the attempts and in their day-to-day lives. The Chaos Dwarfs mostly just stick to the Dark Lands and inflict their misery on each other and the Greenskins.

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The Skaven have also saved the world. Chaos Dwarves never have, and they sell to Chaos all the time.

 

[Mopman43]

The Skaven have also saved the world.

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All right, I'll give them 1 point for helping kill Nagash, and -100 for trading with him and partially arming him with the tools he needed to try to conquer it in the first place.

 

[Ericwinter]

While I'm at it, a thought struck me. It's not probable, but...
...could the Ar-Ulric be thinking we got Wolf from Ulric (from whom all Wolves spring, he holds), and we're thus a lay faithful or in some way in the favour of his Wolf god?
(Ranaldlaugh.wav)

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Yeah... probably not. You skipped straight over the part where he also says "but not all wolves die belonging to Ulric, and yours has the least bad reason for that," almost certainly confirming that he's well aware Wolf belongs to Ranald. On the other hand, he probably also noticed our own enormous piety, and so considers us at least somewhere on his level when it comes to divine hierarchy. At least, I think that's what the "one faithful to another" line means, since it seems to imply an amount of equality. Not sure how accurate that consideration would be, since we're not even a proper priest of Ranald, let alone his high priest, but I think we're supposed to be one of his biggest mortal champions, right?