Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[SITB]

Collegiate is what we need for a lot of our long range ambitions, because it seems to have dropped the action economy in exchange for bonuses in teaching and communicating in the Colleges.

And we make very regular use of our College connections.

Yeah, Polyglot saves us time, but Collegiate is what we need for a lot of our late game projects.

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Only if desired endgame is to become the Supreme Matriarch/Grey Matriarch.

I don't care for this much and the actual bonuses that Collegiate gives Mathilde aren't useful for what I want.

(Or in general, getting another Wizard underling isn't quite the AP cost cutting measure people think it is)

 

[Fanhunter696]

Collegiate is a must as we have too many wizards working for us, and are likely to get even more as our fame spreads and we get Magister Lord.

And Assassin, we did not take it last time and (almost) came to really regret it, we keep assassinating high value targets and despite our progress we are not yet at the point where we can call it safe.

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The thing is that the previous version of Collegiate make that we could hire and coordinate up to 3 mages with a single action... which basically gave us an extra AP.

But that is gone in this new version of the trait, so it is significantly less interesting now than it was before...

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Yeah, this is not a private hatred, I would be not surprised in the slightest if this trait is what the Patriarchs look at when they're passing Mathilde up for Wizard Lord, since we'd be expected to not fuck up when liasing with other major organizations in the Empire then.

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Eh...

"Nothing in this life or the next is free, and whilst I am willing to trust in my own abilities and limitations, and accept any errors I make while weaving my spells, I do not wish to trust the continued benevolence of a deity whose need for my faith and dedication might far outweigh my own need for His or Her aid."

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The Colleges aren't particularly pro-religion let alone pro-Sigmarite. Considering Mathilde's accomplishments being less enthusiastic about Sigmar is a quirk they'll swallow because they can't have too many people on Mathilde's tier.

The same Dawi who hold Sigmar in a position of some respect.

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They also hold Thorgrim in a position of some respect - that doesn't mean Mathilde can't feel Thorgrim or Sigmar are overhyped and just not that great in general.

I like the idea of a trait related to Wolf, but I can't think of one.

Also, a trait related to the We.

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We haven't really spent much time with Wolf and the We though.

 

[kellanved]

I am also in favor of dropping that trait, mostly for narrative reasons.

Disdain for Sigmar: Abelhelm Van Hal died abandoned by Sigmar. You intend to return the favour. +1 Piety due to renewed faith in other gods, will not let Sigmarism flourish in institutions she controls - penalty to institutional actions unless worship of another god is instituted.

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It is pretty obvious that she conflates Sigmar with Sigmarism, and from that it is a small step to Sigmarites. It is bigotry in either case, and something brought on by grief. I want her to let go of her anger.

 

[uju32]

Oh dang yeah the Witch Hunters. That's gonna suck, if it works out that way, as it might mean difficulties with getting along with the Empire's religious investigators into what goes bump in the night. =/

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Yeah. Like the GM has said, we're supposed to be their backup.

And I will note that it was the Witch Hunters, with a nudge or two from Ranald, who cracked the conspiracy that held Mathilde and her former Master in thrall. It was Abelworth dropping the good word to his friends in the Witch Hunters that got that particular investigation going, and it was the Witch Hunter investigation that managed to uncover all the conspirators without putting valuable wizard heads on the chopping block.

This is a pretty big deal from where I stand.

 

[vsh]

Forbidding one religion, and then mandating another, absolutely is religious persecution.

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It's not: it's discrimination. Persecution means there's actual harm done, not just any kind of preferential treatment.

 

[LilyWitch]

I am also in favor of dropping that trait, mostly for narrative reasons.



It is pretty obvious that she conflates Sigmar with Sigmarism, and from that it is a small step to Sigmarites. It is bigotry in either case, and something brought on by grief. I want her to let go of her anger.

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This is explicitly not true. This is the second time this page I have had to say the we have word of Boney that we do not hate sigmarites.

 

[Quest]

Both Polyglot and Collegiate essentially are AP saving traits, but acting in different areas, I think Collegiate is technically more versatile though, as it will impact our plans to teach people as it gives a bonus there and possibly frees up an AP.

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I think the thing with Collegiate is that it's almost certainly going to come up again. We are the Court Wizard of K8P and we are going to keep working with the college and managing wizards. That's never something we're going to stop doing. We can get it next time. Polyglot on the other hand is incredibly useful in the short-term to medium term rather than late game.

Collegiate is what we need for a lot of our long range ambitions, because it seems to have dropped the action economy in exchange for bonuses in teaching and communicating in the Colleges.

And we make very regular use of our College connections.

Yeah, Polyglot saves us time, but Collegiate is what we need for a lot of our late game projects.

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Late game is late game. We're almost certainly going to get it again given interaction with the college.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Only if desired endgame is to become the Supreme Matriarch/Grey Matriarch.

I don't care for this much and the actual bonuses that Collegiate gives Mathilde aren't useful for what I want.

(Or in general, getting another Wizard underling isn't quite the AP cost cutting measure people think it is)

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It impacts training other wizards, a lot of us are interested in Theurgy and Ulgu tongs. Both of those are made easier and more practical by having a trait that explicitly allows us to teach others things we do more easily. Also the fact that the traits makes it easier for us to teach people implies our understanding of magic becomes more easy to generalise which is very important as we become more and more learned in esoteric lore and gain specialised abilities.


Imagine we take the next tier of Wagghbane. Collegiate will help us to explain that to other wizards.

 

[vsh]

that's not bad actually, goes well with our obsession with towers.

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And will apply to research of K8P's giant arcane megastructure.

 

[LilyWitch]

Yeah. Like the GM has said, we're supposed to be their backup.

And I will note that it was the Witch Hunters, with a nudge or two from Ranald, who cracked the conspiracy that held Mathilde and her former Master in thrall. It was Abelworth dropping the good word to his friends in the Witch Hunters that got that particular investigation going, and it was the Witch Hunter investigation that managed to uncover all the conspirators without putting valuable wizard heads on the chopping block.

This is a pretty big deal from where I stand.

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Again. Not letting orginisational worship of sigmar flourish in orginisations we run does not stop us getting along with witchhunters. Also not all (indeed not most) witchhunters are sigmarites.

 

[chocolote12]

Yeah. Like the GM has said, we're supposed to be their backup.

And I will note that it was the Witch Hunters, with a nudge or two from Ranald, who cracked the conspiracy that held Mathilde and her former Master in thrall. It was Abelworth dropping the good word to his friends in the Witch Hunters that got that particular investigation going, and it was the Witch Hunter investigation that managed to uncover all the conspirators without putting valuable wizard heads on the chopping block.

This is a pretty big deal from where I stand.

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Explicitly it doesn't effect our relations with Witch Hunters. Not unless they make us a long term, there-for-multiple-years Witch Hunter General or something.

 

[das_slash]

I think the thing with Collegiate is that it's almost certainly going to come up again. We are the Court Wizard of K8P and we are going to keep working with the college and managing wizards. That's never something we're going to stop doing. We can get it next time. Polyglot on the other hand is incredibly useful in the short-term to medium term rather than late game.

Late game is late game. We're almost certainly going to get it again given interaction with the college.

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That's like saying we don't need assassin, as we are going to be assassinating targets all the time, and thus we can get it whenever.
We want collegiate precisely because we are going to be working with wizards for the foreseeable future.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Only if desired endgame is to become the Supreme Matriarch/Grey Matriarch.

I don't care for this much and the actual bonuses that Collegiate gives Mathilde aren't useful for what I want.

(Or in general, getting another Wizard underling isn't quite the AP cost cutting measure people think it is)

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I mean, whether or not you care for it don't change the fact that it's basically the highest rank we can get unless we cut our ties with the empire and crown ourselves the mage queen of some poor country.

as long as we continue to grow as a wizard Supreme Matriarch/Grey Matriarch is the end game.

 

[Shador]

But the trait explicitly says she is to act against worship of Sigmar in any institution she is in charge of.
I'm going to step out of the thread for a bit because it is getting heated, and i am most definitly not innocent of it.
But the trait, as written, is very much punishing not persecuting a specific religion and followers thereof.

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Word of Boney says that you are wrong in that.

It's about institutional Sigmar worship taking hold in organizations she controls, not individual worshippers.

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Her grudge is against Sigmar, not Sigmarites.

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[LilyWitch]

Explicitly it doesn't effect our relations with Witch Hunters. Not unless they make us a long term, there-for-multiple-years Witch Hunter General or something.

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Even then only the Templars of Sigmar are actually Sigmarites. Many witchhunters belong to secular authorities or one of the other cults of the empire.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

It impacts training other wizards, a lot of us are interested in Theurgy and Ulgu tongs. Both of those are made easier and more practical by having a trait that explicitly allows us to teach others things we do more easily. Also the fact that the traits makes it easier for us to teach people implies our understanding of magic becomes more easy to generalise which is very important as we become more and more learned in esoteric lore and gain specialised abilities.


Imagine we take the next tier of Wagghbane. Collegiate will help us to explain that to other wizards.

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I'm not sure the coming lecture puts those were lecturing under our authority.

@BoneyM ?

 

[SurpriseMe]

Reread my goddamned speculative statement sir.
And please stop accusing me of things I am not doing.

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I'm going to accuse you of what I see you doing. The first half of your post I quoted is speculation or assumptions. Which of those words you use depends on how much you agree with them. I did take the more combative term off the start because I disagreed with your speculation, for which I apologize.

To me it looked like you were passing your speculation as fact here:

Which means they have been steering Sigmarites away from here. Given as much of the Empire, and thus much of the magical talent pool, are Sigmarite, we have been denying ourselves resources and recruitment.

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People sometimes mock newspapers for saying things like "allegedly" even when the truth seems clear, but making sure to establish which are facts clearly is important. Otherwise you make absolute statments that may not line up with reality.

I'm also going to disagree with your speculation on the colleges mapping at all to normal religous life in the empire. We can be reasonably certain that at least the Jade order has a druidic tradition from pre-Teclis times which isn't a reflection of mainstream imperial beliefs. I would also not be surprised if the Amber order is made up of Taal worshipers most prominently, due to their focus on the wilds. We also have the Amethyst order, where the focus on death could lead to an increased proportion of Morr worship. These are nearly half the colleges that could reasonably have different religous makeups from the rest of the empire, even without the possibility of Simar's cult being especially unattractive to mages and without the traditional secularism of the colleges.

With those in mind, it is my opinion that there is no reasonable basis to claim that Sigmarite worship in the broader empire can be used to inferr details about the colleges of magic, and I do not find claims that we will be censured over a distaste of Sigmar realistic.

 

[Alratan]

yea that's one the reasons it's a hard choice. Library bonuses mean we're going to benefit in the short to medium turn an awful lot from Polyglot. On the other hand Collegiate effects mid to late term projects like Ulgu tongs and Theurgy a lot.

That said, early opportunities doing more for you means success snow balls.. So being able to build large boosts from lots of lore from around the world is a very strong option. Hnnng.

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The thing is, to take an extreme example, I'd prefer to succeed at developing theurgy and fail at spreading it widely to risk failing to develop it and having nothing to pass on. A more multilingual library could pile up some truly large bonuses, particularly if we can tap into Ulthuan's libraries and trade, which should contain records from the far eastern human civilizations.

 

[chocolote12]

Collegiate is a great trait... but it's up against the (tentatively named) Arcanitect. That's the trait I want most off of this list. More than any trait from the battle, more than any cultural trait, more than upgraded Waaaghbane or getting in on Ancestor Worship or Polyglot-for-cultures.

I want more tower defense. And that means being a Tower Wizard.

 

[DragonParadox]

Explicitly it doesn't effect our relations with Witch Hunters. Not unless they make us a long term, there-for-multiple-years Witch Hunter General or something.

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It's worth nothing that not all witch hunters are Templars of Sigmar and that even among those that are Templars formally speaking they do not necessarily have to be devoted to him on a religious front. While the zealous Sigmarite witch hunter exists they form at most a plurality of those tasked with countering supernatural threats to the Empire.

 

[ninjafish]

My biggest issue with the hatred of Sigmar trait is that i feel it's kinda petty and selfish.
Ok, fine, Sigmar did not save a guy important to us personally. So what?
He fails to save thousands of people, constantly, and we never had problem with that, why should Van Hal be an exception?
Sure Mathilde (and the voters) considers Van Hal more worthy than many others, but why? Even with his death, the damn castle is dead and Sylvania is being cleansed in big way.
Sigmar is not all powerful, Sigmar is not all knowing, and i think Mathilde should know (or atleast suspect) that after all her dealings with gods.
So outright hatred is kinda pointless. As is not accepting worship of him by our (potential) underlings or organizations we run.

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Irrational hatred is completely human, and it's a good flaw.

Flawed characters are good characters.

So I say we keep hatin ol siggie.

 

[Boney]

I'm not sure the coming lecture puts those were lecturing under our authority.

@BoneyM ?

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Not for a guest lecturer circuit, she'd have to settle in with a teaching job to start applying that bonus to students.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

I'm not sure the coming lecture puts those were lecturing under our authority.

@BoneyM ?

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[ ] Karak: Collegiate
New Trait: Collegiate - Bonus to convincing wizards from the other seven Colleges of Magic to work with you; bonus to assisting and teaching wizards in your employ or under your authority.
Come to think of it, the only College that hasn't contributed to this adventure in some way is the Light Order. And the dragon probably counts for them.

If you're lecturing you could probably argue that technically people going to you have accepted you as an authority on the subject you're lecturing on but obviously BoneyM would need to state catgorically whether that's correct or not but certainly any one you're taking the position of teacher for is putting them selves under your authority.

 

[kellanved]

This is explicitly not true. This is the second time this page I have had to say the we have word of Boney that we do not hate sigmarites.

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You are putting words in my mouth. There's a world of difference between hate and bigotry, although one can lead to the other. Sure she doesn't hate sigmarites, but their worship of Sigmar is something to tolerate.