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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Sinsystems said:
it's just that at a later date he got better due to his so called best friend breaking a sacred death bed oath in the worst possible way.
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well to be fair, from what we know, him going evil come from like several different vector and before going evil, he was a pretty swell guy, even if he have his head shove up his ass, but at least he shove it up there when it was screw on right
 
Chronic said:
We lost Karagril miners. I think it is incredibly unlikely that they were caught outside of the walls, considering they live inside of them. The Broken Tooth somehow punched through our defenses or circumvented them.
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Fair enough, though that doesn't change the fact we were unprepared, had little to no defenses in that direction, and miners are also like, the weakest unit they could have gone after. I also wouldn't be surprised if we rolled really badly there, at which point it's just bad luck, whcih should be counted on as little as good luck. We still don't know how they managed it, but we've probably patched that hole since.
Anyways, I'm going to bed now. Hopefully when i wake up the next update won't be far behind.
 
Ericwinter said:
Fair enough, though that doesn't change the fact we were unprepared, had little to no defenses in that direction, and miners are also like, the weakest unit they could have gone after. I also wouldn't be surprised if we rolled really badly there, at which point it's just bad luck, whcih should be counted on as little as good luck. We still don't know how they managed it, but we've probably patched that hole since.
Anyways, I'm going to bed now. Hopefully when i wake up the next update won't be far behind.
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I disagree. We held Karagril for more than a year, and we're Dwarves. The idea that we wouldn't fortify the entrance to the mountain from an at that time still hostile caldera as heavily as possible seems remote to me. Also, those Miners include former Ironbreakers. Even if they did not have access to suits of Gromril armor they would still be some of the most hardcore soldiers in the hold. We have to assume that what happened there at Karagril can happen again.

Also, have a good night.
 
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vsh said:
Thorgrim raised and taught Belegar, housed his clan, sent Gotri our way and allowed Kragg to come. He's not a bad guy in this story - just misguided.
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I am going have to reluctantly disagree here. Thorgrim is the one who has the explicit political manifesto of killing dwarfs faster so long as a bunch of old grudges get scribbled out for it. That's pretty villainous in my opinion albeit a tragic villain. It's true Thorgrim trained Belegar, but he trained him to go out and die striking out grudges not actually be the king of a living Karak.

People have been saying 'don't blame Thorgrim, pity him'. I am minded to do both.
 
As already pointed out, the information that Thorgrim has paints a pretty hopeless picture.
Disappointing it may be to not gain reinfocements, evil or unreasonable it is not.
 
Valmond said:
We have plenty of copters to evacuate runelords if they want to leave.
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Those copters are committed to the defense of the hold above all else, by the time the situation would be desperate enough to evacuate the anvils they would likely all be destroyed, the fact that Thorgrim could not spare a single Gyrocpter for the sole purpose of getting those anvils out an with no other commitment does not paint a pretty picture.
 
vsh said:
Thorgrim raised and taught Belegar, housed his clan, sent Gotri our way and allowed Kragg to come. He's not a bad guy in this story - just misguided.
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Yeah. For all that the thread likes ragging on people, this is basically exactly what we wanted Thorgrim to actually do as a king; recognize meatgrinders and not throw his people into them. That we happen to be on the other side of his first implementation of 'Common Sense: King Edition' is unpleasant, but the only reason he's not incredibly correct right now is that we're sitting on a gigantic superweapon that could theoretically kill five hundred thousand orcs in about ten seconds, if they weren't hiding from it.

Like, for Thorgrim, this is a combined tower defense and civilization building game, but his troops are drawn directly from his civilian population, not prodded from the aethyr through the use of money. He has to decide which levels he wants to play, and how much he's willing to sacrifice to win them. There are a lot of dwarven resources in this map, but the difficulty of the wave of monsters coming at us makes retaining them hopeless. If he puts more resources in, he's probably just going to lose them all with nothing to show for it, so he buckles down and cuts his losses.

He couldn't possibly have known that this was a special map with one of those gimmick-mechanics that shows up every ten levels, and then at the final fight there's some variation of it that you need to use to defeat the boss. Building gimmick mechanics isn't what Dwarves do. Well, I mean, building gimmick mechanics is about to be what dwarves do if we survive, because gimmick mechanics are awesome, but it's a new technology; they made some pretty ridiculous stuff back in the golden ages, but nothing with the same nature as this particular masterpiece.
 
@BoneyM

Actually, now that it's been some time, do we have any idea how those 5,000 Broken Toof Orcs were able to get past the Karagril defenses enough to inflict 500 casualties on the miners? That's probably the biggest disaster of the previous battle, and how it was done might be a big sticking point for Hold vs Withdraw.
 
chocolote12 said:
He couldn't possibly have known that this was a special map with one of those gimmick-mechanics that shows up every ten levels, and then at the final fight there's some variation of it that you need to use to defeat the boss. Building gimmick mechanics isn't what Dwarves do. Well, I mean, building gimmick mechanics is about to be what dwarves do if we survive, because gimmick mechanics are awesome, but it's a new technology; they made some pretty ridiculous stuff back in the golden ages, but nothing with the same nature as this particular masterpiece.
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This had been brought up and it's just not true. Kazrick told him about the Eye of Gazul, Thorgrim chose to ignore it because it's wizard work.
 
DragonParadox said:
Those copters are committed to the defense of the hold above all else, by the time the situation would be desperate enough to evacuate the anvils they would likely all be destroyed, the fact that Thorgrim could not spare a single Gyrocpter for the sole purpose of getting those anvils out an with no other commitment does not paint a pretty picture.
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Do you really think we would not spare a copter to get the anvils or the runelords out if they wanted to leave?
Or that they would leave?
We have the capability to evacuate key personel if we want to, we just don't want to, and the key personal we would evacuate would not be willing, and might declare a grudge on the spot if someone suggested it.
 
DragonParadox said:
This had been brought up and it's just not true. Kazrick told him about the Eye of Gazul, Thorgrim chose to ignore it because it's wizard work.
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If you hear and you don't believe, then you don't know. A Map Mechanic tooltip showing up on your loading screen isn't something you bet your game on. Or, perhaps, it's the equivalent of the mission description going 'However, the Court Wizard of Karak Eight Peaks is rumored to have constructed a powerful weapon that might be able to turn the tide...', while the 'Difficulty: Impossible' rating stares you in the eye.
 
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Valmond said:
Do you really think we would not spare a copter to get the anvils or the runelords out if they wanted to leave?
Or that they would leave?
We have the capability to evacuate key personel if we want to, we just don't want to, and the key personal we would evacuate would not be willing, and might declare a grudge on the spot if someone suggested it.
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Yes I think that a situation in which it only becomes obvious that the battle is lost and we require anvil evacuation would come after the last gyrocpter is destroyed in defense of the hold is entirely posibile. Also you seem to be conflating the runelords and the anvils. They are most certainly not the same thing. I am certain Krag would die rather than evacuate, but he would see to it that his anvil is safe in that case because with every anvil lost the whole of Karaz Ankor is less. Avoiding that is the responsibility of High King Thorgrim not King Belegar whose responsibility is to his hold first and foremost.
 
DragonParadox said:
Those copters are committed to the defense of the hold above all else, by the time the situation would be desperate enough to evacuate the anvils they would likely all be destroyed, the fact that Thorgrim could not spare a single Gyrocpter for the sole purpose of getting those anvils out an with no other commitment does not paint a pretty picture.
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It's not like Belegar would refuse the Runelords if they requested gyrocopters to evacuate their anivls right now. And if they don't request it, that's that, those Anvils belong to them, not to Thorgrim.
 
DragonParadox said:
Yes I think that a situation in which it only becomes obvious that the battle is lost and we require anvil evacuation would come after the last gyrocpter is destroyed in defense of the hold is entirely posibile. Also you seem to be conflating the runelords and the anvils. They are most certainly not the same thing. I am certain Krag would die rather than evacuate, but he would see to it that his anvil is safe in that case because with every anvil lost the whole of Karaz Ankor is less. Avoiding that is the responsibility of High King Thorgrim not King Belegar whose responsibility is to his hold first and foremost.
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I don't think that standard is entirely equal. It's all of their responsibilities to safeguard the anvils of doom or not, as the case may be. Thorgrim already provided the Airforce of Karak Eight Peaks; this included the heavily modified gyrocopter made specifically to transport Kragg's Anvil. If we choose to use it to attack with, rather than keep Kragg's Anvil safe, that's a misallocation of resources on our part, not something he should rectify by giving us more gyrocopters.
 
agumentic said:
It's not like Belegar would refuse the Runelords if they requested gyrocopters to evacuate their anivls right now. And if they don't request it, that's that, those Anvils belong to them, not to Thorgrim.
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It's not about Belegar refusing it, but the possibility that there would not be any more gyropopters to send because they are all lost in battle. If Thorgrim had sent a gyrocopter that woudl have been on standby for evacuation, otherwise every machine in the hold is committed to fight and potentially be destroyed against the orcs.
 
DragonParadox said:
Yes I think that a situation in which it only becomes obvious that the battle is lost and we require anvil evacuation would come after the last gyrocpter is destroyed in defense of the hold is entirely posibile. Also you seem to be conflating the runelords and the anvils. They are most certainly not the same thing. I am certain Krag would die rather than evacuate, but he would see to it that his anvil is safe in that case because with every anvil lost the whole of Karaz Ankor is less. Avoiding that is the responsibility of High King Thorgrim not King Belegar whose responsibility is to his hold first and foremost.
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And wtf would the gyrocopter do at that point?
Battle is lost, all out airforces are grounded or destroyed, how do they go get the anvils at that point?
And the anvils are with the runelords, who are unlikely to relinquish them while they live, and the odds of anyone being able to get them afterwards is minuscule to non existent.

I'm not happy with the situation we have here, but i'm not going to blame Thorgrim that much.
Dice screwed us and screwed him, the "no reinfocements" should not be on the table at all, atleast not without a good reason why Thorgrim can't send them.
But here we are, and it's not like KaK could have sent that much forces in the time we had anyway.
 
DragonParadox said:
It's not about Belegar refusing it, but the possibility that there would not be any more gyropopters to send because they are all lost in battle. If Thorgrim had sent a gyrocopter that woudl have been on standby for evacuation, otherwise every machine in the hold is committed to fight and potentially be destroyed against the orcs.
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We could just keep two copters in reserve for the evacuation, 2 copters won't make or break the defense.
 
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