Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Sooooo.

Hey do you guys think we could create our own Mind Fire with we mixed ulgu and aqshy together properly?

The whole point of tongs experimentation is too see if we can make new lores like necromancy is made of shyish and dhar, so I'm kind of imagining what those lores could consist of.
Honestly, I am just more interested in trying to make Ranaldian Theurgy.

Less, because of any expectations of it being revolutionary, and more that I really enjoy Mathilda interacting with Ranald, and exploring this form of magic will only encourage more interactions between them.

As such, it is just more interesting for me, even if going with tongs was guarentees to be a success, significantly better, and only took one action to do.

Maybe even if Theurgy Reaserch was guaranteed to fail... though I doubt that it is.
 
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The tongs are only needed if you limited yourself to the elven perspective of how magic works, when humans have access to a much broader range through Theurgy. Now, I know you have reservations against religious magic, but consider the most recent update, and then ask yourself: Could Elementalism be an example of secular Theurgy? It could be a way of accessing the benefits of the process through a system of belief in how the world works that's tied to a philosophical doctrine (a love of nature, in the case of Elementalism) rather than a religious one.
That seems like an unnecessarily complicated explanation for elementalism.

Much simpler to just say that the elves, and therefore the colleges, aren't completely correct about how magic works.
 
The tongs are only needed if you limited yourself to the elven perspective of how magic works, when humans have access to a much broader range through Theurgy. Now, I know you have reservations against religious magic, but consider the most recent update, and then ask yourself: Could Elementalism be an example of secular Theurgy? It could be a way of accessing the benefits of the process through a system of belief in how the world works that's tied to a philosophical doctrine (a love of nature, in the case of Elementalism) rather than a religious one.

Remember that elven spellcasting and Collegiate spellcasting are not the same. Teclis may have spent twenty years teaching the early Magisters, but there's a lot they didn't understand of his teachings, such as why the elves consider divine and arcane magic to be the same thing when they cast their spells - which is something that makes sense based on the elven view as that their gods are part of themselves and they are part of their god, and that by performing any action in a god's portfolio they briefly embody them.

That then fits with how elves can cast elemental spells as well as Wind ones, as told to us by BoneyM.

There are also hints that the elves don't see the Eight Winds as being as distinct as Collegiate Magisters learn to.
 
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Theurgy research intersects with Ulgu tong any way. You will want both to do it.

Theurgy isn't really what we want with Ranald due to us having Ulgu arcane marks we can't go down that route any more. What we need is more akin to how Chaos sorcerers interop their divine magic and normal magical skills together.

Theurgy is accessing magical lores via divine patronage. So you have The lady of the Lake with Life, Beasts and Heaven lores for her Damsels despite it being godly magic. The same with the Nehekarans, getting death and light lores alongside their mortuary cult lore.

They do 'normal' magic through the divine. That option is closed off to us in part due to our arcane marks. So we have to approach things from the other way. Doing magic to divine energy supplied to us by Ranald. That's where Ulgu tongs intersects as we'll be effecting what is either a melange of the eight winds in some form or an AV equivalent and either way we'll be doing by reaching out and touching it with Ulgu, in a similar vein to what we did with Mork where we opened an Ulgu conduit to Ranald to pass the divine energy through.


So on deeper reflection I think Ulgu tongs is a gateway research tech to three major potential avenues, obviously there's lots of smaller applications but they aren't really important to the conversation.

  1. Casting spells with another wind of magic
  2. Potential mixed lores (that either are or aren't dhar reliant, see Athel loren and Kislev ice witches for possible examples)
  3. Reverse Theurgy where in we do more wide ranging magic by doing Ulgu tong/pipelined and channelled ranald spells.


That seems like an unnecessarily complicated explanation for elementalism.

Much simpler to just say that the elves, and therefore the colleges, aren't completely correct about how magic works.

Given that magic is channelled through the soul, I imagine the fact that Humans and Elves have different souls must lead to pecularities in the way magic works which would be true for humans but not Elves. It's why Vampires have different things happen to them when they drink blood from different living things. They don't interact with the aethyric realm in the same way.
 
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The tongs are only needed if you limited yourself to the elven perspective of how magic works, when humans have access to a much broader range through Theurgy. Now, I know you have reservations against religious magic, but consider the most recent update, and then ask yourself: Could Elementalism be an example of secular Theurgy? It could be a way of accessing the benefits of the process through a system of belief in how the world works that's tied to a philosophical doctrine (a love of nature, in the case of Elementalism) rather than a religious one.
I actually believe that Elementalist do not use any divine assistance in their magic, no more than a Teclian wizard anyway.

I made a post about it before, and I think that they might be using the natural Elements as "Filters" for magic and then using tools to prevent contaminations or Dhar deterioration... most of the time.

I think that this is most likely, but it is just an educated guess.
That seems like an unnecessarily complicated explanation for elementalism.

Much simpler to just say that the elves, and therefore the colleges, aren't completely correct about how magic works.
considering that according to the BonyM, on a previous post, says that there are elven Elementalist equivalents?

I think it is not any lack of knowledge on the part of Elves, rather just a consequence of how when Teclis made the Colleges he had limited time and so focused on the most important things, such as ensuring the wizards mental stability as best as he could with as much firepower as possible.

As such, he focused on the basics and making everything as clear as he could, notably not mentioning the connections between gods and magic.

That he left before talking about other froms of magic in detail does not mean that he does not know of them.
 
So, didn't we send a messenger to go ask for help ? Will we be able to intercept him ?
We did. But we don't know where Belegar is; he's off investigating piracy, and that necessarily means he was going from place to place checking out rumors. So our gyrocopter pilot is going to have to follow his trail, asking at each place he went where the next place he went was, and we have no idea how long that will take.
so many people said:
*so much arguing about esoteric metaphysics*
Words cannot express how sick I am of this goddamn tongs argument. It's at the point where I just want to put everyone who talks about it on Ignore, because not a single new point has been raised in hundreds of pages and I am tired of reading this circle.
 
I actually believe that Elementalist do not use any divine assistance in their magic, no more than a Teclian wizard anyway.

I made a post about it before, and I think that they might be using the natural Elements as "Filters" for magic and then using tools to prevent contaminations or Dhar deterioration... most of the time.

for what it's worth given that gods are created by sufficient belief it's quite possible a secular philosophy backed up by enough surety and certitude could actually create that resonance in the aethyr to piggy back off.


Words cannot express how sick I am of this goddamn tongs argument. It's at the point where I just want to put everyone who talks about it on Ignore, because not a single new point has been raised in hundreds of pages and I am tired of reading this circle.

Then ignore it, literally nothing is going to happen to change the current vote from winning there's nothing else to discuss. You were happy to like a post chiding me for talking about it just after an update but now there's nothing going on you still want to limit what people can discuss you don't think that's perhaps a little unfair?

I LITERALLY just raised a new point. Ulgu Tongs intersects with Theurgy as a research project due to the fact that it requires us to use Ulgu to interop with Ranaldian divine energy which has a lot of overlap with AV and Ulgu tongs as a project as divine energy is a melange of the eight winds, just because you're bored of the topic doesn't give you the right to shut discussion down.
 
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Words cannot express how sick I am of this goddamn tongs argument. It's at the point where I just want to put everyone who talks about it on Ignore, because not a single new point has been raised in hundreds of pages and I am tired of reading this circle.
But... the entire discussion you're responding to is about a single new point that's been raised about esoteric metaphysics.
 
The tongs are only needed if you limited yourself to the elven perspective of how magic works, when humans have access to a much broader range through Theurgy. Now, I know you have reservations against religious magic, but consider the most recent update, and then ask yourself: Could Elementalism be an example of secular Theurgy? It could be a way of accessing the benefits of the process through a system of belief in how the world works that's tied to a philosophical doctrine (a love of nature, in the case of Elementalism) rather than a religious one.

it could be... but were already marked by ulgu, we have to use the wind method.
 
it could be... but were already marked by ulgu, we have to use the wind method.

Yea pretty much, due to the Arcane marks on Mathildes soul it's the only channelling method that can be used now so everything else has to be done at remove via Ulgu, that includes any divine magic attempts. So Ulgu tongs is needed now regardless of whether we're going to try and do theurgy or not.
 
Voting closed, writing has begun.

[X] Strike against Clan Eshin
- [X] ESHIN: Attempt to assassinate their Sorcerer.

Luck be with you.
 
Then ignore it, literally nothing is going to happen to change the current vote from winning there's nothing else to discuss. You were happy to like a post chiding me for talking about it just after an update but now there's nothing going on you still want to limit what people can discuss you don't think that's perhaps a little unfair?
We could be discussing the next few war turns of dealing with the skaven.

We could be discussing tactics for keeping the Waaagh in check so we can zap it safely.

We could be discussing our future dealings with Qrech.

We could be discussing how the events of this war interlude affect our turnplanning.

We could be discussing who we want to social this coming social turn.

Don't tell me there's nothing else to discuss but esoteric metaphysics. It's just the same few people who are really, really into this idea and bring it up every time the thread gets quiet.
But... the entire discussion you're responding to is about a single new point that's been raised about esoteric metaphysics.
Elementalists were discussed in the context of tongs and multi-wind magic hundreds of pages ago:
There weren't mono wind traditions of magic in the empire pre-teclis. The closest was the elementalists from 1e RPG and those themselves were a rememnant from Warhammer before it became Warhammer fantasy battle. Basically the 1st edition table top not even the RPG. Basically you either had a bevy of quasi religious magic traditions or you had the fumblings of natural philosophers and such trying to grapple with the winds of magic from a purely pre-science tradition of learning. The distinction of the winds of magic being 8 and distinct is actually an Elven and before them Slann introduction to the worlds understanding of magic.
This isn't new at all. It's the same circular argument, and we've been having it for over a month.
 
for what it's worth given that gods are created by sufficient belief it's quite possible a secular philosophy backed up by enough surety and certitude could actually create that resonance in the aethyr to piggy back off.
If they where numerous enough, maybe.

I just dont think they are and while they "like nature" so do Ghur mages and they are no more or less religous than other colleges.

What even implies that they are even a religous or philosophical movement anymore than a college normally is or that they draw power from these ideals or gods?

Heck, Druids where once much more popular than the Elementalists ever where and their gods were, and in some places still are, worshipped across what would later become the empire. they flat out worshipped the earth/world as a whole for a while if I remember right.
Elementalists don't have nearly those numbers of "secular believers" and yet they are significently more stable than the druids who did have them.
 
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I actually believe that Elementalist do not use any divine assistance in their magic, no more than a Teclian wizard anyway.

I made a post about it before, and I think that they might be using the natural Elements as "Filters" for magic and then using tools to prevent contaminations or Dhar deterioration... most of the time.

honestly, I think the thing with magic is you need a system. It does not need to be the same one, but so long as there is a framework to force it into, you can get it to behave in an orderly fashion.
 
We could be discussing the next few war turns of dealing with the skaven.

We could be discussing tactics for keeping the Waaagh in check so we can zap it safely.

We could be discussing our future dealings with Qrech.

We could be discussing how the events of this war interlude affect our turnplanning.

We could be discussing who we want to social this coming social turn.

Then discuss those things, but don't try and tell me to essentially shut up and go away because that's rude as hell. As to the rest of your post when Elementalists were discussed in the past they had no mention in story, now they do. We have more information to work with since the last update especially as we know they go insane at closer to the rates of teclisian wizards rather than dhar wielding ones.

This isn't new at all. It's the same circular argument, and we've been having it for over a month.

I pointed out that Ulgu tongs is needed for Theurgy. That hasn't been discussed before IIRC.


If they where numerous enough, maybe.

I just dont think they are and while they "like nature" so do Ghur mages and they are no more or less religous than other colleges.

What even implies that they are even a religous or philosophical movement anymore than a college normally is or that they draw power from these ideals or gods?

Heck, Druids where once much more populated and their gods was once worshipped across what would later become the empire. they flat out worshipped the earth/world as a whole for a while if I remember right.
Elementalists don't have nearly those numbers of "secular believers" and yet they are significently more stable than the druids who did have them.

Elementalists of that magical school aren't the only people that had a four elements world view it was also very popular in academic circles in the empire. Whether thats enough to create the resonance needed is hard to say but given sufficient belief in sigmar allows two priests to attack other with divine magic from Sigmar, I rather imagine it's difficult to properly judge.
 
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Then discuss those things, but don't try and tell me to essentially shut up and go away because that's rude as hell.
I didn't tell anyone to shut up and go away. I expressed tiredness of and frustration with this topic. I don't think that saying "I find the eternal circular discussion of this one topic damaging to my enjoyment" is toxic behavior.
 
So speaking of magical improvement, let's talk about Ulgu. Putting aside tongs or Theurgy, which seem like sidegrades or totally different casting styles, how can we improve our mastery of ulgu itself? We've mastered the conventional spellbook so where do we go from here? Simple answer would be inventing spells, but I'm going for a slightly more specific answer.

The next level of ulgu lies in battle magic. I'm not talking about the difficult-to-use conventional system. I mean, a personalized set of battle magic designed to benefit from our traits and our purposes. I imagine every single piece of those magics would be the culmination of an arc. A battle magic to reveal and a battle magic created to obscure information after exploring the spells created from Warrior of Fog. A battle magic that invokes Ranald akin to some Hysh spells to draw on his domains. Not manipulating divine power with tongs but replicating whatever the other colleges do with their gods. Maybe a Pit of Shades equivalent after studying the Vitae and the Brass Orb.

This is pretty long-term and ambitious, but it is an idea going around my head. Battle Magic is difficult to use + Personalised battle magic isn't = Build your own personal Battle Magic spellbook.
 
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Crematorium
Crematorium

Princess Edda's Throng marched on Karag Rhyn, the elite mercenaries of the Besiegers joining them, but they were not the only ones. One person makes little change in the calculus of war, but the right person at the right place can make a difference. Adela Burgstaller, Journeywoman of the Bright Order knew her place. Fire was ever the answer to trolls.

***

Adela Burgstaller had been in battle before. This wasn't it. This was an extermination. Dangerous, deadly even, but not a battle. The battle was what happened to this place before they got here. Tunnel after tunnel was carpeted with the dead. Here Broken Toof orcs fell charging a barricade, but the wood was broken and splintered and beyond it there were few orc dead, and many goblins. The Crooked Moon goblins had died hard, but they'd died.

There a number of holes in the walls and floor were sprung clean, the covers shuffled about and stomped but still recognizable. Some of the Moon goblins were still in the holes, dead before they made it all the way out. But it was the orcs they'd surrounded in ambush that littered that cavern, not goblins.

In a side tunnel a number of deformed, broken and melted orc bodies lay still among still wigging troll guts, while men and dwarves tossed them into the flames of cobbled together firepits. She called upon her blade and joined the grisly work. Every troll already down that they could end permanently was another one not producing the shouts and screams echoing around the mountain.

***

She stuck close to the mercenaries. Her Khazalid was still a work in progress, and she had no intention of dancing in close with trolls. There was bravery, and there was stupid. Not when she had other options. The noise had masked them on approach, and the bodies they strode over hid the stink. Her group rounded a corner in the tunnel and were suddenly at a cavern opening. One not only covered in the dead and the still wiggling trolls, but whole ones, feasting on the fallen, orc, goblin and troll alike. She'd long past lost her sense of smell, but even so the stink was choking.

The mercenaries wasted no time, planting their shields and firing. The thrum of crossbows seemed to only anger the monsters. They were too close and lumbering closer. She called upon the inner fires, feeling the warmth in her soul. How it wished to burn, everything. Well, she was in need of some burning. Flame arced above the heads of the solders, barely staying below the tunnel roof, before splashing against one of the monstrosities. Its scream deafened her. The trolls took off at a run and they would reach the lines in but a moment when the second thrum came.

The first shot had been near panicked, reflexive, a result of countless drills. The second one was aimed, placed with forethought and precision. All three trolls collapsed as several bolts found their knees, each. The follow up sought other joints. The Besiegers would struggle to kill the trolls, even with multiple bolts to the head, the damn things were too stubborn and too stupid to die from it. But they could leave them wiggling on the floor, near helpless. Near, as one found out, as several streams of vomit exploded from the downed monsters. For once, the crossbowmen did not hide behind their shields. Instead, in the half second the steel barrier bought them, they threw themselves aside, so that when the stream inevitably punched through, none of them were caught. Well, badly anyway. More than one was stripping boots, or jackets from stray drops, but better leather and steel than flesh.

Those could be replaced with dwarven gold. At least this group wouldn't have to wait for dwarves to arrive to dismember the trolls. Adela Burgstaller called upon the fires in her soul and burned them out and then kept burning until all the bits and pieces of their kin the trolls were eating were still as well. The cavern, the tunnels, the entire mountain was a charnel house, one being burnt out, one piece at a time. The rot and death being replaced by burning flesh, to end in pure ash. An ancestral home polluted by greenskins, now cleansed in flames.

It was a good day.

She tried not to think about the Dragon and hoped it would not become her problem. For once in her life, she wasn't at all sure there was enough fire in the world for that problem. Hopefully the Magister had some cunning way of dealing with it. Adela wasn't at all sure how this had all come to be, but when all your enemies start killing each other, and the battle is over before you arrive, you don't need to be a child of Burghers to understand simple truths. Who profits?

From there, she didn't need to know. Not the schemes or the plots. The results spoke for themselves. It was said there was no Wizard so feared on the field of battle as a Bright one. In sheer scale of the damage they could do, none were their match. This? This is what the Greys did. A battle won, before the first swing. Adela was witnessing the work of a maestro of that terrible art.

Letters would need to be penned. The Colleges were aligned, allied. But they were also rivals and the Greys could be as coldhearted as the Astromancers, in their own way.

Best to keep the fires warm and close at hand.
 
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So speaking of magical improvement, let's talk about Ulgu. Putting aside tongs or Theurgy, which seem like sidegrades or totally different casting styles, how can we improve our mastery of ulgu itself? We've mastered the conventional spellbook so where do we go from here? Simple answer would be inventing spells, but I'm going for a slightly more specific answer.

The next level of ulgu lies in battle magic. I'm not talking about the difficult-to-use conventional system. I mean, a personalized set of battle magic designed to benefit from our traits and our purposes. I imagine every single piece of those magics would be the culmination of an arc. A battle magic to reveal and a battle magic created to obscure information after exploring the spells created from Warrior of Fog. A battle magic that invokes Ranald akin to some Hysh spells to draw on his domains. Not manipulating divine power with tongs but replicating whatever the other colleges do with their gods. Maybe a Pit of Shades equivalent after studying the Vitae and the Brass Orb.

This is pretty long-term and ambitious, but it is an idea going around my head. Battle Magic is difficult to use + Personalised battle magic isn't = Build your own personal Battle Magic spellbook.

Fill out the entire spellbook, or create spells of our own.
 
But not in the context of Theurgy, which is what the discussion was of. The reason I'd brought it up was explicitly to redirect the conversation away from tongs.

Which dove tails back because.

Mork had poured His terrible power into you, and with typical greenskin carelessness had done nothing to seal that connection after his purpose had concluded. A single strand of Ulgu touches the aperture that Mork had torn in your soul, and its other end extended into nothingness, offered freely to your oldest and most infuriating companion. And with a delighted laugh, he accepted.

And then he pulled.

Theurgy is going to require learning more about Ulgu interops with other energies. Divine or otherwise theurgy is going to use something like Ulgu tongs to work with Ranaldian divine energy. It has to because we have Arcane marks that preclude us channelling energy in any other way.
 
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