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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I think the thinking on Hit Hard is that we're already ludicrously good at hitting from stealth, and as we get better at our magic, we will get better at stealth. But no part of our character progression is going to help us hit harder other than magical enhancement.

Remember that turn when we needed to open the tower gates to reinforcement but didn't have a way to do so safely and reliably?
 
So, gotta ask, why marksdwarf pistol?

Mathilde herself mused that, when you can't guarantee a one-shot kill, it's better to aim for the chest and shoot thrice than hope for a headshot.

Marksdwarf fills no role in our toolbox. The revolver is sufficiently accurate as a pistol that the difference won't matter, as Mathilde plain ain't a good enough shot that "the only limitation is the user" would make a difference. The revolver is otherwise massively better, firing thrice a round instead of once.

Besides that, Shadow Knives will soon fill in the pistol-range niche for ranged murder. The marksdwarf doesn't hit harder, it doesn't fire faster, and the mechanical accuracy of a dwarven revolver is more than enough for a shooter of Mathilde's skills, which are good, but not that good.

And then, there's the fact that the best shooter with the best handgun will be handily outshot by a mediocre shooter with a decent rifle, because the rifle plain and simply has ten times the effective range of a pistol.

So, why not a fine rifle?

[X] [KRAGG] Hit Hard
[X] Tower of Utter Neutrality
[X] [SPIDER] They are military assets and thus the responsibility of Dreng.
[X] [SHOPPING] Go to Zhufbar look for a nice rifle.

And because the pistol is a complete waste of money:
[X] [SHOPPING] No purchase.

We don't need to burn an action on it right away, it can serve, for example, as a testbed for enchanting. It should take all of one action to hire an instructor and get really good with it, but that doesn't have to be now.
 
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Enerael said:
I am a bit sad that Hit Hard is winning so hard. I am really curious what an assassination runic super-greatsword made by Kragg the Grim could possibly be like.

It would be something weird and amazing and completely bullshit I am sure.

Not that Hit Hard won't be awesome, but it just seems a bit... boring. And not as much in line with how we have contributed the most to this campaign, which has been with scouting and assassination.

Well, and sabotage, but doing demolition with a greatsword does not seem very effective.

But, eh, all the options are equally good, they will just shape our playstyle differently.
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Our magic makes us better at stealth as our magic stat improves our characters physical strength will never improve, at the absolute most we could potentially hit S4 through years of actions dedicated to fitness. What Mathilde needs in combat stealth or otherwise is the ability to hit like a truck. Weapon skill we can train to a very respectable level, our toughness the ability to soak wounds and actually sustain taking them is already at the limit that humans can have in this setting or better. (Our toughness on TT stat line is actually super human thanks to the belt)

Whilst I would be interested in knowing what the other runes could be I don't think the utility maximiser would come from Kragg trying to help us be more stealthy. I think it comes from him giving us a weapon that grants S10 hits. It's the thing that lets Matty fight on the level of Lord characters in the TT.
 
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Gingganz said:
Because we know how to shoot a pistol, not a rifle, and I don't want to spend actions on learning it.
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But a rifle is a valuable addition to our arsenal and can serve as a very nice enchanting project to sharpen our skills. Proficiency also raises Martial, which is a bonus all on its own.

I'd rather buy nothing than waste money on a pistol that we have no use for.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
So, gotta ask, why marksdwarf pistol?

Mathilde herself mused that, when you can't guarantee a one-shot kill, it's better to aim for the chest and shoot thrice than hope for a headshot.

Marksdwarf fills no role in our toolbox. The revolver is sufficiently accurate as a pistol that the difference likely won't matter, as Mathilde plain ain't a good enough shot that "the only limitation is the user" would make a difference. The revolver is otherwise massively better, firing thrice a round instead of once.

Besides that, Shadow Knives will soon fill in the pistol-range niche for ranged murder. The marksdwarf is doesn't hit harder, it doesn't fire faster, and the mechanical accuracy of a dwarven revolver is more than enough for a shooter of Mathilde's skills, which are good, but not that good.

And then, there's the fact that the best shooter with the best handgun will be handily outshot by a mediocre shooter with a decent rifle, because the rifle plain and simply has ten times the effective range of a pistol.

So, why not a fine rifle?

[X] [KRAGG] Hit Hard
[X] Tower of Utter Neutrality
[X] [SPIDER] They are military assets and thus the responsibility of Dreng.
[X] [SHOPPING] Go to Zhufbar look for a nice rifle.
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Because a rifle requires minimum two actions to become proficient to use. It's as simple as that.
 
Kornet said:
Because a rifle requires minimum two actions to become proficient to use. It's as simple as that.
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Mininum two actions? :Citation Needed:

We are already halfway proficient with due being proficient with a pistol. One action, at best.

And even better: we can just hire someone to teach us. If a teacher can add two progress to Advanced Greatsword in one action, I find it absurd that one wouldn't put us damn near halfway there with a weapon that needs little more than an afternoon or two of instruction due our associated pistol skills.

If we want to snipe, we get a rifle. A marksdwarf pistol is a waste of perfectly good gold.
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Mininum two actions? :Citation Needed:

We are already halfway proficient with due being proficient with a pistol. One action, at best.

And even better: we can just hire someone to teach us.

If we want to snipe, we get a rifle. A marksdwarf pistol is a waste of perfectly good gold.
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we're so action strained already I struggle to think of a reason to do this. Why bother? Especially as that action could be used to do something like learn a magic spell.
 
[X] [KRAGG] Hit Hard

[X] Tower of Utter Neutrality

Definitively want all of them though. Thank Ranald we have all that cash!

[X] [SPIDER] They are foreign allies and thus the responsibility of Prince Kazrik.
[X] [SPIDER] They are military assets and thus the responsibility of Dreng.

Anything but another timesink. If there's a weird problem they can't solve Belegar will send us in again anyway.
 
Heh. I was looking at the proto- FAQ (man, I wish the Character sheet showed in the Informational tags dropdown) and spotted this, which I asked way, way back on page 34, about what sort of Deed might qualify as Proving ourself for the Magister trial, which seemed a long way away back when we had Magic 3.
BoneyM said:
Alliterate said:
Deed like... knocking over a (Vampire?) Necromancer in Drakenfells? Or is that... overkill?
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It would be overkill, though if you pull it off it'd definitely work. You only need to prove that you're ready to begin as a Magister. The entire Ledger Saga could qualify if you sold it well enough, though you are currently heavily lacking on the magical side of things - which is why I haven't brought it up before now.
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Heh.
Turns out that there's no overkill like "knocking over a Necromancers (castle on their head)" overkill.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
we're so action strained already I struggle to think of a reason to do this. Why bother? Especially as that action could be used to do something like learn a magic spell.
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Then don't buy a pistol we have zero use for. Mathilde isn't more accurate than her revolver, and Matty herself admitted that for a shooter of her skill, the revolver's quick firing is much better than a more accurate single-shot pistol.
 
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[X]TotallyNotEvil
[X] [SHOPPING] Buy a second Dwarven Revolver.

I want a rifle to act as our long term enchanting project and a second revolver feels like a decent enough idea to me.

Aegon Targaryen said:
Thing is, people around here love the Articles of Magic. Resurrecting Vlad would break all of them, without fail.
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We're reading the Big Book Of Necromancy. The Articles are damn important, but it isn't impossible for Matty to make decisions that lean towards shades of grey.

Explain to and convince people how Vlad being alive would be a net benefit for the Empire and it'll get through.
 
Here's our pistol instructor indirectly commenting on markspistol vs revolver:
BoneyM said:
an old memory comes to mind from nearly five years ago, when Gustav taught you to fire a pistol.

"Almost always," he said, "you'll be better served by three quick bullets to the torso than one careful one to the head. The brain is smaller than you'd think and the skull harder, whereas the torso is full of things the target probably needs. Heart and spine shots put the target down right away, lungs and livers are debilitating, and most of the rest of the organs mean they'll probably die in the coming days. But every now and then, everything lines up, and that is when a pistolier can truly build a legend for themself."
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The marksdwarf pistol is a complete was of money. Mathilde is better served by her revolver.

If we want to invest in sniping, we buy a rifle, which is literally ten times better at the job. Long range for even the finest pistols is fifty meters. Long range for a decent rifle is five hundred meters. You know what else has a long range of close to fifty meters? Shadow Knives.

Mathilde can't exceed the mechanical accuracy of her revolver. Until the limiting factor becomes the gun, and not the shooter, the revolver wins every time. And at that point, we are a true markswoman, and might as well get a damn sniper rifle.

Otherwise, our book purchasing habits are doing more than enough to finish off our wealth, this lastest spending is looking like it will take an entire fifth of our remaining money.

So please folks, make up your mind: either don't spend the money, or buy a rifle if you are interested in the opportunities an invisible sky-walking assassin represents.
 
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See, when I have to convince people and I have to out-argument people like Alliterate, BungieONI, TotallyNotEvil and Redshirt Army, I know it's time to cut my losses.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Then don't buy a pistol we have zero use for. Mathilde isn't more accurate than her revolver, and Matty herself admitted that for a shooter of her skill, the revolver's quick firing is much better than a more accurate single-shot pistol.
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I think something like one of the other pistole types could be useful (blunderbuss, heavy bullet). In the mid term, I think a rifle should definitly be on the list, but I'd put it after advanced greatswording, maybe even master greatswording.
 
BurnNote said:
I think something like one of the other pistole types could be useful (blunderbuss, heavy bullet). In the mid term, I think a rifle should definitly be on the list, but I'd put it after advanced greatswording, maybe even master greatswording.
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Yeah, the other ones might have uses, the hand-cannon is obviously better at super tough targets, the blunderbuss if we want to cook special ammo.

But the marksdwarf is just pointless. If we ever reach a point where the mechanically accuracy of a dwarven revolver is the limiting factor to our shooting, we are well past the point buying a rifle and spending the one action to hire an instructor would have been more than worth it.
 
Walliseatscheese said:
We're reading the Big Book Of Necromancy. The Articles are damn important, but it isn't impossible for Matty to make decisions that lean towards shades of grey.

Explain to and convince people how Vlad being alive would be a net benefit for the Empire and it'll get through.
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Vlad Von Carstein is an unrepentant ego maniac that views humans as a source of food and little else. The idea that he's a good guy is very very mistaken. Any one that thinks otherwise I recommend you read the Liber Necris which is a setting book written from his perspective.

Edit: Above is incorrect, Manfred wrote the liber Necris.
 
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Walliseatscheese said:
We're reading the Big Book Of Necromancy. The Articles are damn important, but it isn't impossible for Matty to make decisions that lean towards shades of grey.

Explain to and convince people how Vlad being alive would be a net benefit for the Empire and it'll get through.
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I would argue that her loialty to the colleges began eroding before the Liber Mortis came up. She told the dwarfs about the possession, but did not even consider telling the Grey Collge about it (no vote just GM fiat because it would have been that bad).
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Our magic makes us better at stealth as our magic stat improves our characters physical strength will never improve, at the absolute most we could potentially hit S4 through years of actions dedicated to fitness. What Mathilde needs in combat stealth or otherwise is the ability to hit like a truck. Weapon skill we can train to a very respectable level, our toughness the ability to soak wounds and actually sustain taking them is already at the limit that humans can have in this setting or better. (Our toughness on TT stat line is actually super human thanks to the belt)

Whilst I would be interested in knowing what the other runes could be I don't think the utility maximiser would come from Kragg trying to help us be more stealthy. I think it comes from him giving us a weapon that grants S10 hits. It's the thing that lets Matty fight on the level of Lord characters in the TT.
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Kragg is not stupid, if we need S10 for the best backstabs, the backstabber will have his Rune.

It would not hit like a truck all the time, but like a train when backstabbing. Or an invisible truck.

We are not deciding which option is objectively the best here, they are all equally great weapons, and equally well suited to Mathilda. If humans direly need S to be effective, all of them will provide enough S for that.


Hm, do dwarfs have a Rune of darkness? If our sword could make darkness on command that we could see through, that would fit the Backstabber very well.


I think that the Hits Fast option would give great many attacks and something like that Master Rune that pierces all defences on x+ and be exceptionally good against hordes while being weaker at backstabbing, Hit Hard to be a universally useful and powerful weapon, and the Backstabber a Legendary Greatsword equivalent of an assassins dagger.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Vlad Von Carstein is an unrepentant ego maniac that views humans as a source of food and little else. The idea that he's a good guy is very very mistaken. Any one that thinks otherwise I recommend you read the Liber Necris which is a setting book written from his perspective.
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You know...it's truly sad that the Liber Necris is written by and from the point of view of Mannfred von Carstein...who is an egomaniac who views humans as sources of food.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Here's our pistol instructor indirectly commenting on markspistol vs revolver:


The marksdwarf pistol is a complete was of money. Mathilde is better served by her revolver.

If we want to invest in sniping, we buy a rifle, which is literally ten times better at the job. Long range for even the finest pistols is fifty meters. Long range for a decent rifle is five hundred meters. You know what else has a long range of close to fifty meters?

Otherwise, our book purchasing habits are doing more than enough to finish off our wealth, this lastest spending is looking like it will take an entire fifth of our remaining money.

So please folks, make up your mind: either don't spend the money, or buy a rifle if you are interested in the opportunities an invisible sky-walking assassin represents.
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You know why a marksdwarf pistol is good? Because it is cheap. It's gold cost is in the same ballpark as an impulsive purchase of romantic literature (by our current scale), it cost no actions. All in all, it's cost is negligible. And it does offer a small increase in our capability - it would have been a bit more useful killing that warpstone-toothed gobbo boss. giving us a bit of a bonus to a rare, yet important kind of roll. All the while being an utterly trivial investment of gold and effort.

Rifle, on the other hand, is not trivial. Rifle requires spending actions to get a capability we are not that interested in dedicated ourselves too - there has been a large push against raiding lately. Hell, I'd say that when it comes to sabotage/assasination a rifle is inferior to Burning Vengeance - but it is another kettle of fish. Whatever actions it requires to train to use is at least one action too many.
 
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