Tasoli
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Alternate account for Manaan named like true MMO gamer.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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She'd be a Saber.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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Stromfels' followers have claimed He's the True Aspect (tm) of Manaan since at least 2e:
That Ulthuan's treaty with Marienburg led to the Manaanites to abandon the more violent parts of Manaan and then those outlawed parts became Stromfels is news to me, though.Tome of Salvation said:
Edit: Though, it's not impossible that Stromfels' worship was in fact influenced by Norscans or such after they split off. Or maybe even before that, the Cult of Manaan did in fact get influenced by Norscans, just like how some Norscans see Ulric as a fifth Chaos God.
Edit 2: The post immediately below is enlightening.
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1e Marienburg, Sold Down The River:
The cult of Stromfels ... is also a part of the cult of Manaan, an ancient part that represents a balance with the sea. The truth is that Stromfels is an aspect of Manaan, known as the Wrecker. Outlawed as heresy after the signing of the Treaty of Amity and Commerce with the High Elves...
2e Thousand Thrones:
Stromfels is an ancient aspect of Manann, the God of the Seas. Worship of Stromfels was outlawed as a result of Marienburg's treaty with the Sea Elves in 2150. In the years following, the priests of Manann cut their ties to the cult of Stromfels and concealed Stromfels' association with their God.
Well for one I can't imagine the human sacrifice and boat sinking was that popular to begin with.
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Human sacrifice probably was. It has been, in various forms, popular even though real human histiry and even excluding religious aspects, have often been a form of entertrainment although in that case, it was done to people perceived to be criminals (hangings in the wild West, Guilotine in French Revolution, public burnings of
Boats, on the other hand, are terribly expensive
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K von Carstein
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Human sacrifice without a religious aspect is not a sacrifice, just an execution. If executions of criminals are human sacrifices, the Stalinian Purges made the atheistic USSR even more devout than the Aztecs. And most religions in history didn't engage in human sacrifice, which shows it wasn't very popular.
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Warhammer is not real life, Warhammer has the Chaos Gods.
The High Elves may have exerted similar influence on other coastal communities that simply isn't something that the Empire based scholars who IC write the books we read mention.
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Eh, I think an execution done as a way to entertrain the public is a sacrifice in a sense, although maybe not if we adhere by an exact definition of it.
Executing someone with no audience indeed has no connection to it.
Warhammer is generally trying to be grimmer than real life, this quest aside. And even in history, not only the evilest of Gods want sacrifice, so why would only Chaos want it in Warhammer?
Imagine you are a good Sigmarite standing all snug in your bed, you hear about the raiders from the north and their sacrifices on foul altars, you hear about the witch elves and their Cauldrons of Blood... and then you hear that some priests of Manann also do that. Human sacrifice has a bad reputation in the Empire, even though if you dig deep enough you can probably find bits and pieces of old rites that required it in all sorts of places. The whole test of the flame in Middleheim for instance might well have started as a sacrifice to Ulric with those the Wolf God respected being spared. Manann just clung onto those primordial rites a lot longer, but the trend of the modern empire is less human sacrifice, preferably none, because it has bad associations.
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That is fair. Cultural drifts like that in order to better other the other happen. Especially when the other is actually foul, which does not often happen in reality.
Although people going "our glorious rites vs their foul rituals" is all toohuman too.
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We're really stretching the meaning of the term "sacrifice" if we count non-religious executions as being an example on the grounds that they're "entertainment"
Besides which, the primary point of public executions wasn't entertainment, it was deterrence
"Do not [do this thing] or else [this] happens to you"
The morbid fascination with death, and the most exciting public event random peasant or burgher has heard in the last month happening to be a public execution, are what cause public executions to also end up being entertainment
But that's more a byproduct than the end goal
Now the Coliseum is an entirely different matter
Regarding exactly how commonplace human sacrifice was. It's a bit fuzzy and hard to glean.
Written historical records of such are rare, and those that exist are possibly untrustworthy because accusing other polities of human sacrifice was a fairly popular way of demonizing them
Archeological evidence can also be shaky because there's not a whole lot to differentiate a human sacrifice from an execution, a prisoner killing or etc.
Sometimes the situation is fairly clear from other context clues, like a whole group of people being buried in an elaborate tomb with weapons and servant equipment is probably a retainer burial
There's also the fact that cultures are not static
There's enough evidence to suggest that human sacrifice in some form has been practiced in most regions of the world at some point in time, mostly by early agricultural societies
But the practice often ended up getting phased out with time, either internally or due to conquest or influence from neighbors
And the practice wasn't necessarily regarded fondly even during periods when it was still being practiced, but in some cases simply had enough traditional inertia that it was considered "necessary"
Which regard to Manaan and Stromfels
It sounds like the practice of human sacrifice and ship wrecking was already pretty tenuous and unpopular, and Ulthuan drawing a hard line simply gave the political impetuous to end the practice entirely rather than let it continue out of tradition
It's probable that there was a notable movement within the Cult of Manaan at the time that argued against the practice
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I am unreasonably excited about the possibility of shade being thrown on Templar Witch Hunters in relation to medieval banking principles.
Though wouldn't those be quite different in Warhammer? Since IIRC there's no major religious taboo against taking interest on a loan in warhammer, so you don't have that pushed off onto a disliked minority (thereby also reinforcing the dislike), and people just hate bankers in general.
K von Carstein
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That's not just stretching the exact definition of sacrifice, that's making baloon animals out of it.
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Sure, in an academic context, but the discussion was about humans accepting sacrifices as a thing, and the fact that they did it nonreligiously for entertrainment implies they are more than willing, is my point.
K von Carstein
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Not just in an academic context. Human sacrifice is by definition sacrificing a human to a higher power, which has precisely nothing to do with the execution of criminals. Executions are about punishing people committing crimes and trying to frighten people into not doing the thing that than the guy getting executed, not entertaining the public.
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NavySeel
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Oh no they entertain the public quite a bit, it's just that that's not really a goal just a side effect.
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Ok I didn't actually want to buy a thing before and I desperately do now. Yes plz.
The question then becomes, what was the impetus to begin regarding human sacrifice as bad?
If Ulrica and Taal had sacrifices and a bunch of the old rites did too, when did the turn to humanism happen and why?
It seems like Shalaya would be the obvious answer, but that implies lot of low-level penetration of her ideas into society. Sigmar, because he was human? Idk did Sigmar ever have the sacrifice thing beyond burning heretics?
I thought it was legitimacy.
"This is a Bad Person and they are getting what is coming to them because of Our Rule".
They say justice is always the first service protogovernments provide, whether bronze age or modern areas of governmental collapse.
NavySeel
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I don't think those are really mutually exclusive in any way, that message comes with an implicit, "Don't be a 'Bad person' or we'll do this to you too."
I think the answer is dwarfs, not only does no aspect of dwarfish religion include it, not only is it practiced by their hated kin, but it is also anathema to how Karaz Ankor society works. People in the in group are too valuable and people in the out group who are enemies are wanted dead. Killing them is already a social obligation as deep as any religious dogma, a grudge avenged.
if i remember right, there was something, somewhere, about how Lothern loaners are happy to give out loans to people.
Something to do with how they are very good at collecting off the powerful thanks to the high elves networks of merchants letting them find debters, and people not wanting to upset the very rich elves by not giving them up.
and they are also happy to give loans to those of lesser means as long as they have to pay before leaving.
after all, they could always just
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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Regardless of how you want to split hairs as to what human sacrifice constitutes, the Empire officially Does Not Like human sacrifices in the way that ancient and primeval and bloody Cults did. Executing someone for breaking the law is fine because it preserves the stability of society; and unlike real life there are Verenans who will religiously strive to be fair in their judgements, or appeal to authorities to be that way in case they don't handle it themselves. But ritually sacrificing someone to please Stromfels is bad because Stromfels Does Not Care whether the people he's eating deserve it, or about society at all.
I can't imagine the Cult of Manaan was winning itself any friends with the other Cults back when Manaan still had those more savage aspects... aspects which are, let's be real here, probably themselves an extension of Mathlann as he originally was, an Ellinilli - a personification of the uncountable natural disasters that plagued the world when it was originally being shaped.
It's entirely possible that, on top of it being pragmatic for Ulthuan's ships, there was a religious motivation on the part of Mathlann's followers in trying to excise those nastier elements from Manann. In fact, it's pretty possible that an elf would spontaneously manifest and say that those two things are exactly the same reason, or something.
...On that general topic, I can't help but wonder what sort of disastrous splinter-god would emerge if the Cult of Ulric formally schismed and the more extremist outliers created a God of Wolves That Hunt You To Death In Winter.
I can't imagine the Cult of Manaan was winning itself any friends with the other Cults back when Manaan still had those more savage aspects... aspects which are, let's be real here, probably themselves an extension of Mathlann as he originally was, an Ellinilli - a personification of the uncountable natural disasters that plagued the world when it was originally being shaped.
It's entirely possible that, on top of it being pragmatic for Ulthuan's ships, there was a religious motivation on the part of Mathlann's followers in trying to excise those nastier elements from Manann. In fact, it's pretty possible that an elf would spontaneously manifest and say that those two things are exactly the same reason, or something.
...On that general topic, I can't help but wonder what sort of disastrous splinter-god would emerge if the Cult of Ulric formally schismed and the more extremist outliers created a God of Wolves That Hunt You To Death In Winter.
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