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Depends on what we want them to be capable of.
If we want someone who is capable, if necessary, of going onto an infiltration mission to steal ledgers (c), we want a journeyman.
If we just want a clerk who is incapable of independent field action on our behalf, apprentice is fine too.

I think former is preferable - the map between EIC and K8P is not safe, any journeyman is likely to have to go out and stab a gribbly or deal with corrupted trade guard or check the ledgers(tm) at least at some point. Costs more, but we are paying for the valuable resource, not nothing. But I can see the arguments towards a mere apprentice.
Well, a journeyman will usually be more useful than a simple apprentice. Just that in regards to EIC, I do want Mathilde to personally deal with it rather than a journeyman. EIC current situation is a tad sensitive at the moment and the less people that knows about it the better. Also, we are basically in home territory at the moment and there isn't a lot of point in doing stuff like stealing ledgers when we can probably just ask for them since Mathilde has a high enough position and reputation.

If we do want a Grey Journeymanlings, I rather have them deal with stuff like skaven infiltrators which might be an issue in the not so distant future. If not, more combat oriented Journeymans would be useful for the retaking and defenses of K8P. Just dealing with EIC I feel is a bit of a waste and potential breach of secrecy if we involved them too much.
 
As for Ranald Sorcery? I could give any number of reasons, but in the end- because it's awesome. It gives Mathilde her own unique brand image that stands with the likes of other big name casters of the setting. It gives us a way to have lasting impact in our specialty long after we're gone. It provides awesome narrative potential in exploring where divine magic begins and color magic ends and convincing others to allow it. It's a potential magnum opus borne out of the development and refinement of unique character traits we've had since the start of the quest. It doesn't have to be the theoretical most optimal choice to be gripping and cool, to change how we the voters, Mathilde herself, and the society she comes from view magic can't be anything but compelling.

Why is it awesome? We have been discussing how Sorcery is not unique. Sure Ranald sorcery would be unique but in the end it's just another type of sorcery. Prophetess of the lady of the lake use it and liche priests have used it. To have a long lasting impact we would have to teach it. And Ranald is not the most loved god. How many people would be willing to pursue such a relationship with Ranald? What unique character traits from the beginning of the quest would sorcery be a magnum opus of? Looking at character creation we had enchanter and brave. If you are talking about blessed by ranald than having the attention of a deity by no means makes the deity partial to sorcery.

I don't want the most theoretically optimal choices. That's not why I am here. As I look at sorcery though the more I see a tired trick that cultures of warhammer have tried to use to change the world before and it never worked the way they wanted it too. Sorcery is not new, and I no longer find it the compelling or cool choice I once did.

You say that sorcery would change the way that society views magic but looking at Bretonnia that is simple not the case. You say that sorcery would change how Mathilde herself views magic. That would happen anyway as Mathilde learns more about magic. We don't need sorcery to do that.
 
As I look at sorcery though the more I see a tired trick that cultures of warhammer have tried to use to change the world before and it never worked the way they wanted it too. Sorcery is not new, and I no longer find it the compelling or cool choice I once did.

Why do you say it never worked? Bretonia is doing fine with its significantly less explosion-prone mages.
 
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[X] Windreader > Windsage: Your magical senses see more than your normal ones. +2 Learning, even more able to see and understand emotion and magical effects in others.

That's THE magical upgrade

[X] Magical Duellist: Anyone unwise enough to try to cast spells you don't want them to will quickly regret it. +2 Learning, +10 bonus to dispelling and inducing miscasts.

That one is pretty nice to have (always glad to boost Learning and dispel better), but to be honest at that point it is an anti-Avatar vote.

[X] Wolf Familiar > Winter Wolf Familiar: Turns out Wolf is a late bloomer. Wolf will grow large enough to ride upon.

You can't have enough Wolf! Well, maybe you can when he is house-sized.

[X] Plan Fields of Gold
-[x] Recruit Maximilian
-[X] Recruit Johann

I was going to vote for Max+Panoramia because I like her more than Johann, but was convinced by the argument that she doesn't need our management to do her job, but Johann is likely to do some shady shit without it.

[X] Donate it to whoever ends up leading the Undumgi.

Selling is unwise, 2 favor is nice,but not critical and donating to Undumgi can have positive effects both in social sense and in the next battle.
 
Well, a journeyman will usually be more useful than a simple apprentice. Just that in regards to EIC, I do want Mathilde to personally deal with it rather than a journeyman. EIC current situation is a tad sensitive at the moment and the less people that knows about it the better. Also, we are basically in home territory at the moment and there isn't a lot of point in doing stuff like stealing ledgers when we can probably just ask for them since Mathilde has a high enough position and reputation.

If we do want a Grey Journeymanlings, I rather have them deal with stuff like skaven infiltrators which might be an issue in the not so distant future. If not, more combat oriented Journeymans would be useful for the retaking and defenses of K8P. Just dealing with EIC I feel is a bit of a waste and potential breach of secrecy if we involved them too much.

EIC is not a secret at all though. Grey Order knows all there is to know about it, they just trust Mathilde to be the Magister responsible for keeping an eye on it. There is no secrecy to breach.
So increasing a number of people in the know, as long as we still seem to be in control of situation and not trying to make it someone else's problem, is perfectly fine, I think.

And "I do want Mathilde to personally deal with it" - that's why I am concerned though. We have 0-2 actions free to do our own things if we take direct action with EIC + take control of 2 wizards + no Collegiate.
If we hire a 3rd wizard to offload EIC to - to offload anything at all to - without Collegiate we will need to spend another action on management, them being 3rd wizard, thus nullifying an action point gain.
With Collegiate we can do it this way, sure...but it's a whole trait, which are in high demand. Still, it'd mean that, if we can offload EIC action to journeymanling, we are left with 1-3 free actions.


That's what I am driving towards. The way I understand it, the only way to having a guaranteed at least 1 free action for our own research/projects each turn if we take EIC is to take Collegiate and outsource the EIC anyway. Without doing it, we are returning towards it hampering our action economy.
It is somewhat better than what I said right now because a) some of Councillor actions are going to be what we wanted to do personally anyway; b) some of journeymanling actions will be things which are Councillor actions or close to that; c) it's 1-3, not 1, depending on how much on fire things are.
But it's still something of a tight spot.
edit: well, we can use journeymanling for supplementing us in other areas and taking direct control of EIC, I guess. Still means we need one to make up for action sink of EIC, so point still stands.


tl;dr: Management is not a free action. Thus I foresee having hard choices between management and research if we take EIC (without taking Collegiate + journeymanling who'd actually take care of it).
 
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And Knights who often consider the peasantry under them subhuman. Having less explosion prone mages does not make a good society. It can help sure. But so far it hasn't seemed too.

That has literally nothing to do with sorcery though. That would be like arguing that an alliance with the dwarfs has been bad for the Empire because...

*picks grimdark out of hat*

There are sigmarite fanatics in many parts of the Empire that consider all of the other gods false and the miracles of their gods the workigns of Chaos

One does not follow the other at all.
 
And so on. If you put some thought into it, lots of traits and their combinations can give her compelling brand images. Sorcery does not have monopoly on that.
(You could argue it's more impactful than any of those; I would counter, quite reasonably IMO, that with time investment enough to develop Sorcery, if it is possible at all, those splats/brands could be grown into comparably fearsome things)
Those are all fairly generic in all honesty. The last one is literally trying to emulate the Bursar, Adventurers wanting to dive and delve into something they shouldn't is not necessarily novel, and the first is almost the Archetypical Grey Wizard with Mathilde's sword and a more martial bent.

I'm not talking about a brand, I'm talking about her brand. Something that would make her stand out even compared to the likes of Gelt, Elspeth, Teclis, the Fey Enchantress, etc. A character who's uniqueness and place in the setting speaks for itself. All those examples you gave are roles to play, but trying to create and propagate sorcery in the Empire is defining. This is something so heterodox and radical given Volans' original plan for the Colleges that we could face a ton of censure. We'd be disputing the very philosophy and foundation that they view their magic with.

Your examples would be the methods and tools through which we could impact the the world with. Imperial Sorcery would be the impact and then some in its own right. One is our worldview, the other is our worldview trying to make itself a reality and all the shenanigans that entails.
 
[X] Take an active hand in the EIC

[X] Avatar: You're growing worryingly familiar with being used as a conduit by deities. ???
[X] Windreader > Windsage: Your magical senses see more than your normal ones. +2 Learning, even more able to see and understand emotion and magical effects in others.

[X] Donate it to whoever ends up leading the Undumgi.
 
@BoneyM in regards to taking an active hand in the EIC and the action we have to commit to that, how broadly are we interpreting that? As there isn't really anyone except Mathilde herself taking care of things.

Are any of these actions fine?

1. Using the action to help Anton find a spouse. He owns a large share of the EIC and his wife will have influence on it. Ensuring that the wife is someone who wouldn't abuse the EIC seems like it would qualify and we can make sure that they are happy at the same time.
2. Just spending time with the shareholders who also happen to be our friends, helping them with whatever task they are currently on. If it relates to the company, we can guide their work.
3. Using the action to just be in Stirland, maybe finish reviewing the data collected from our undead information collection agency.
4. Running a branch of the company in K8P.
 
@BoneyM in regards to taking an active hand in the EIC and the action we have to commit to that, how broadly are we interpreting that? As there isn't really anyone except Mathilde herself taking care of things.

Are any of these actions fine?

1. Using the action to help Anton find a spouse. He owns a large share of the EIC and his wife will have influence on it. Ensuring that the wife is someone who wouldn't abuse the EIC seems like it would qualify and we can make sure that they are happy at the same time.
2. Just spending time with the shareholders who also happen to be our friends, helping them with whatever task they are currently on. If it relates to the company, we can guide their work.
3. Using the action to just be in Stirland, maybe finish reviewing the data collected from our undead information collection agency.
4. Running a branch of the company in K8P.

Only 4. It's taking an active hand in the EIC, not being vaguely in the same area as it while doing something completely different.
 
And "I do want Mathilde to personally deal with it" - that's why I am concerned though. We have 0-2 actions free to do our own things if we take direct action with EIC + take control of 2 wizards + no Collegiate.
If we hire a 3rd wizard to offload EIC to - to offload anything at all to - without Collegiate we will need to spend another action on management, them being 3rd wizard, thus nullifying an action point gain.
With Collegiate we can do it this way, sure...but it's a whole trait, which are in high demand. Still, it'd mean that, if we can offload EIC action to journeymanling, we are left with 1-3 free actions.
Or we can just hire someone that is a good steward. They don't necessarily even need to be from the college, just someone we can trust and rely on for day to day stuff. Any of the more intrigue aspect of EIC can be dealt with us. I'm sorry if I sound disrespectful here, but you haven't really given a lot of good reasons to hire journeymans to deal with EIC and your reasoning here actually makes me feel more hesitant to hire a journeyman to deal with this since it will take up an action. It seems to be an issue that a normal person can deal with and I rather just have that since I rather use journeymen for actions that most normal humans can't really do.
 
Those are all fairly generic in all honesty. The last one is literally trying to emulate the Bursar, Adventurers wanting to dive and delve into something they shouldn't is not necessarily novel, and the first is almost the Archetypical Grey Wizard with Mathilde's sword and a more martial bent.

I'm not talking about a brand, I'm talking about her brand. Something that would make her stand out even compared to the likes of Gelt, Elspeth, Teclis, the Fey Enchantress, etc. A character who's uniqueness and place in the setting speaks for itself. All those examples you gave are roles to play, but trying to create and propagate sorcery in the Empire is defining. This is something so heterodox and radical given Volans' original plan for the Colleges that we could face a ton of censure. We'd be disputing the very philosophy and foundation that they view their magic with.

Your examples would be the methods and tools through which we could impact the the world with. Imperial Sorcery would be the impact and then some in its own right. One is our worldview, the other is our worldview trying to make itself a reality and all the shenanigans that entails.

This literally is a thing I've already replied to with the part in parenthesis of the post you've quoted. I can reiterate and expand on it, however.

Sorcery is something exceptionally major. It is going to take up immense amounts of time and effort. If we sink comparable effort and resources into any other splat, I am convinced we can achieve same setting-defining greatness in those too.

Explorer splat 1: on high end, what about completing Ranald's Level-Up and stealing power of two more gods, getting up to his holy number of four?
Explorer splat 2: steal shit from necromancers without triggering the curse. Fuck you Nagash, fuck you Archon or whoever, End Times are cancelled, all silly relics are destroyed or securely held by Greys. Impossible, you say? So is sorcery, and yet we are comparing to that, so.
Explorer splat 3: steal ledgers records confirming Dark Elves were behind War of the Beard.

Assassin splat 1: kill Malekith. Impossible? So is sorcery.
Assassin splat 2: Assassinate next Everchosen.
Assassin splat 3: Perma-assassinate a great deamon or ten. Perma-kills are impossible? Well, if you think we can invent sorcery, why not believe we can invent Assassination so hard it becomes conceptual?

Do you get what I mean now? You are proposing achieving the almost-impossible and then comparing it to basically mundane levels of achievement of other splats. That's like taking Level 40 Theurge and saying that Level 20 Wizard is worse...because he is Wizard and not because he is level 20.
 
That one is wrong. Seed explicitly lets us regrow lost limbs, and therefore any other comparable body trauma.
I'm almost positive that Boney has stated that the seed has certain limits. If our body is too badly destroyed, if enough biomass is loss- that sort of thing but I can't exactly look it up at this time.
 
About Avatar how often would we see that in effect?
Most trait would be useful straight away for many turns since we see more magic work, action and paperwork unlike Avatar which could be in effect for special occasions or rare crazy stuff.
 
[X] Leave the EIC alone
[X] Infiltrator: Nobody seems to guard anything well enough to keep you out. +2 Intrigue, +10 bonus to infiltration.
[X] Windreader > Windsage: Your magical senses see more than your normal ones. +2 Learning, even more able to see and understand emotion and magical effects in others.
[X] Magical Duellist: Anyone unwise enough to try to cast spells you don't want them to will quickly regret it. +2 Learning, +10 bonus to dispelling and inducing miscasts.
[X] Donate it to whoever ends up leading the Undumgi.
 
Only 4. It's taking an active hand in the EIC, not being vaguely in the same area as it while doing something completely different.

Ah, so other 3 don't take up an action?
Well, that changed calculus and makes things quite easier, thanks.

Or we can just hire someone that is a good steward. They don't necessarily even need to be from the college, just someone we can trust and rely on for day to day stuff. Any of the more intrigue aspect of EIC can be dealt with us. I'm sorry if I sound disrespectful here, but you haven't really given a lot of good reasons to hire journeymans to deal with EIC and your reasoning here actually makes me feel more hesitant to hire a journeyman to deal with this since it will take up an action. It seems to be an issue that a normal person can deal with and I rather just have that since I rather use journeymen for actions that most normal humans can't really do.

This implies that a baseline human can safely deal with things which can happen on a road between Stirland and Karak 8 Peaks, latter being an active warzone.
They might be able to. They might not. I'd rather err on side of caution, given that the road in dangerous and Karak far from secure.

I am not precisely sure why are you so convinced a normal person can deal with it - I mean, they might, it all depends on what goes down.

But, well, if I interpreted WoQM right, we only spend actions on EIC if we actively manage something(I think?), so there's no need for any of that anyway. I overestimated action cost of that all.
Edit: If anything aside from assuming direct control costs no action points, I am quite fine with taking a more active role and my objection is withdrawn.
 
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Say @BoneyM would doing something like setting up a sort of facility for visiting wizards with basics things like a library and a few labs set up be something we can do? I'd imagine that it would help attract some wizards as it would mean that those that come won't have to worry about setting up their own labs.

Also would we be able to attract wizards without having to hire them? Like a sort of general "You can stay here and use the facilities, but you must help out K8P while you are here."
 
I thought the limit was the limited number of charges.
That, and it takes just a little bit of time to work. If one were to keep poking Mathilde during the healing, he could easily make the seed go through all the charges in rapid succession and finally stop working. That's why being mobbed is dangerous.
 
Why is it awesome? We have been discussing how Sorcery is not unique. Sure Ranald sorcery would be unique but in the end it's just another type of sorcery. Prophetess of the lady of the lake use it and liche priests have used it. To have a long lasting impact we would have to teach it. And Ranald is not the most loved god. How many people would be willing to pursue such a relationship with Ranald? What unique character traits from the beginning of the quest would sorcery be a magnum opus of? Looking at character creation we had enchanter and brave. If you are talking about blessed by ranald than having the attention of a deity by no means makes the deity partial to sorcery.

I don't want the most theoretically optimal choices. That's not why I am here. As I look at sorcery though the more I see a tired trick that cultures of warhammer have tried to use to change the world before and it never worked the way they wanted it too. Sorcery is not new, and I no longer find it the compelling or cool choice I once did.

You say that sorcery would change the way that society views magic but looking at Bretonnia that is simple not the case. You say that sorcery would change how Mathilde herself views magic. That would happen anyway as Mathilde learns more about magic. We don't need sorcery to do that.
This isn't about optimal. This is about narrative. We study the Liber Mortis and we learn secrets of magic, how shyish can be used to manipulate Dhar. It gives us a good theoretical understanding, but how do we use it? That knowledge can serve as the backbone for using Ulgu to manipulate other winds and forms of power. This is where we'll get the basis of manipulating Ranald's power with Ulgu.

But to do that we need to understand gods. Where do they come from? Where does the power of a god end and the god itself begin? What is the difference between color magic and divine power? This comparison brings another question to our mind. Gods are beings of the warp. But so are daemons. What's the difference? Daemons are often much closer to the winds of magic and wouldn't you look at it? We have this Daemon trapped in a prison of glass in a curious state of dead and alive. It's blood flows endlessly before us. What secrets can we extract from it? We've called the blood Liquid Quaysh and looked at it as a source of power, but it's part of the daemon. It's blood. Where does that end and begin? We can learn much of the nature of the warp and it's denizens.

Then armed with this knowledge, you look into a god's divine power. Find out where it begins to differ from the winds we wield. If the blood of a daemon can be used as a source of power, why not the energy of a god? Priests certainly do it.

Ulgu-Ranaldian magic is a final endgame goal, but it's not like we can't reach it by pursuing our other goals and research topics.
 
Ah, so other 3 don't take up an action?
Well, that changed calculus and makes things quite easier, thanks.



This implies that a baseline human can safely deal with things which can happen on a road between Stirland and Karak 8 Peaks, latter being an active warzone.
They might be able to. They might not. I'd rather err on side of caution, given that the road in dangerous and Karak far from secure.

I am not precisely sure why are you so convinced a normal person can deal with it - I mean, they might, it all depends on what goes down.

But, well, if I interpreted WoQM right, we only spend actions on EIC if we actively manage something(I think?), so there's no need for any of that anyway. I overestimated action cost of that all.
Edit: If anything aside from assuming direct control costs no action points, I am quite fine with taking a more active role and my objection is withdrawn.
While I am in the pro EIC faction, I think you are interpreting it wrong. The other 3 actions still do take an action, it just doesn't count as an action spent on EIC management.
 
So went back through the thread, and this was the closest quote in regards to what would happen if we were chopped up.

On the topic of the Seed in general, what limits it is how easy the counter to it is to stumble upon: if she goes down, just keep stabbing her until the roots stop moving. It has multiple charges but if she gets killed once where nobody's around to distract whoever/whatever did it, it's very likely to result in Game Over. Also it rather depends on Mathilde's death leaving her mostly in one piece, and there's a lot of ways to die in the setting that aren't so polite.

Now this doesn't actually say that we can't regrow limbs, but I can see why Karugus thinks that. So there's a really easy way to answer this question. @BoneyM does the seed allow us to regrow limbs if they were chopped off? And if the limb chopped off was our arm that was holding the seed, would it still work?
 
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