Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
In some ways, I'm a little annoyed we skipped the entire enchanting subsystem with runic gear. We got some endgame items very early and now we don't need to worry about upgrading our gear—at least, not until the threats catch up with us.
I'd agree with that take on the grounds that... we have not seen much combat have we? The closest thing to it we dealt with recently was assassinating a man in bed, a thing which did take some stealth, but nothing more and it is hard to imagine any enchantment we could get our hands on making us better at stealth. The closest thing I can think of to that is that Robe of Move that would allow us to make like a ghost with Mockery of Substance.
A lot of the stuff we have cannot be realistically upgraded. In fact lets go through the list with some nice colors:
Staff of Mistery: We built a spell around it and the only other battle magic we have is made safe by its presence
Runic Gromril Greatsword, Branulhune: This is the best sword, made by the best smith from the tradition most skilled at magical gear in the setting
Seed of Regrowth: While it is theoretically possible to imagine a better healing item if we got say elves to make it or something the fact of the matter remains that it is hard to beat 'will raise the dead' other than by time scale (which is soft locked by how souls and Winds work) or number of resurrections, which we have not had to do even once so it's kind of moot
Belt of the Unshackled Mountain: See above sword argument. If the Rule of Pride was not a thing we could go 'make us a 25 DF version of that', but it is so Mathilde will be wearing this to her grave
Ranald's Coin: Character concerns to one side we are not finding another divine artifact we can use
Candle of Cleansing Radiance: First one where there is a reasonable argument to be made for replacing it, we could make say 'the same thing but Windherded with extra functionality' or we could get another College spell that they are wiling to hand to us... but what kind? Between the limitations of A) Ranald with fateweaving B) Not putting other magic in Mathilde's brain meats and C) The College in question being willing to sell it to us there isn't a lot of stuff we could use, much less use reliably enough to be worth the price
Dragonflask: Drink: Same as the above with the added issue that this one has seen combat and proved quite useful on two occasions (Drakenhoff clean up and Drycha)
Armoured Robes: The last item we have that is actually sub-par combared to our resources since they were produced with rather low robes right before Dum.
Last edited:
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm definitely of the opinion of eventually switching out the Dragonflask for something else.
Unlike the Candle and the Grounding Rod (which protect against possible worst-case scenarios), the flask is a rather one-off weapon we've barely used. I'll repeat my preference of binding Whispering Darknesses to create an mist/fog-like AoE attack, and then switch out the flask for something that covers a different niche, like Penumbral Pendulum (massive damage in a single line).
We definitely could have improved upon the robes. It's not just that our Magic score could yet increase or that we could get the We-silk in the future, but... quite simply, we could have enchanted them with something on top of Aethyric Armor, like Shadowcloak or Take No Heed. Mathilde explicitly noted that we didn't really take full advantage of possibilities allowed by using a powerstone and the Helldrake scales.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Since Aethyric Armour's effectiveness depends on Mathilde's Magic stat, she'll make new robes once she's reached Magic 10.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
What Ulgu Cataclysm spell?
No point in getting rid of the dragonflask until the thread is willing to learn battle magic, and even then it still has value as a bound spell with a simple activation sequence.
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
The Old World Rulebook, page 327, Elementalism lore, Travel Mystical Pathway spell:
My first thought on reading this was "Huh, maybe the elementalists from Nuln would've helped with the waystone project after all". Of course the two settings are quite different in their approaches to magic, so it was just fun thought, not something I actually believed in. But then it pinged a memory of mine, and I remembered something I glanced at in the wiki's page on waystones.
<Waystone>
The wiki's citation for that bit of lore is WFRP 4e: Winds of Magic page 197. Opening that page, the word "earthbound" isn't anywhere in it; it instead says "Natural earth energies form a globe-spanning gridcalled the Geomantic Web.". Sloppy for the wiki to use the word "earthbound", but understandable. The word "earthbound" does appear several times in the book though, just not in the wiki.
From what I can tell, in Winds of Magic, the term "earthbound magic" means colour magic that's saturated in the environment. In Divided Loyalties, "earthbound magic" means colourless magic that's diffused into matter and can inherit a new nature. Decidedly different, but also surprisingly similar.
What's more surprising is that WFRP 2e: Realms of Sorcery seems to COMBINE the two terms. Page 39-41, the beginning of the Earthbound Magic section:
The one actually important discovery is that in Realms of Sorcery, earthbound magic is something that gets sucked up by the Great Vortex, which means the Elementalists are relevant to the waystone project. That's something actionable in-quest, using accepted 2e lore.
<Waystone>
I reread this and was astonished that it actually fit well within the Divided Loyalties framework. Unlike in TOW, where elementalists use the winds of magic, elementalists in DL use earthbound magic. If the Geomantic Web is earthbound magic, then it fits for the elementalists to have a spell like Travel Mystical Pathway.
The wiki's citation for that bit of lore is WFRP 4e: Winds of Magic page 197. Opening that page, the word "earthbound" isn't anywhere in it; it instead says "Natural earth energies form a globe-spanning gridcalled the Geomantic Web.". Sloppy for the wiki to use the word "earthbound", but understandable. The word "earthbound" does appear several times in the book though, just not in the wiki.
Page 7:
Page 62, Lore of Light, Assault of Stone spell:
Page 88, Lore of Light, Leyfinding spell:
Page 189, in the chapter talking about the effects of magic in the world, i.e. what happens when a region is saturated in a wind or the winds:
Page 190:
Page 193:
Page 194, the Containment waystone property:
What's more surprising is that WFRP 2e: Realms of Sorcery seems to COMBINE the two terms. Page 39-41, the beginning of the Earthbound Magic section:
From Divided Loyalties, we get dispersion/diffusion and low-magic suitability for use in low level spells. From Winds of Magic, we get saturation and winds of magic.
The one actually important discovery is that in Realms of Sorcery, earthbound magic is something that gets sucked up by the Great Vortex, which means the Elementalists are relevant to the waystone project. That's something actionable in-quest, using accepted 2e lore.
Last edited:
- Location
- Earth
Ranald's Mischief.
It's a fun enough idea that I'll allow it.-- Ideally we'd want something relevant to the foundation, but in leiu of that... per White Dwarf 389 (UK), pg. 69, Ulgu is able to create the spell "Ranald's Mischief", where "Using a small silver mirror, the wizard switches an ability of one of his allies with that of one of his enemies." I have no clue if this is actually a good idea or not, but I thought it might be funny if in this timeline, Horstmann's Speculum was a joint Ulgu/Hysh windherder project.
--- I'd want QM confirmation that we could do something like this without it causing weird looks because Horstmann already made his mirror, or because a random White Dwarf isn't a reliable source. @Boney ?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Just to be accurate, there are a few major differences- Ranald's Mischief copies two stats (chosen at random) from an enemy unit within 24", but does not give the enemy unit your stats.
With Van Horstman's Speculum, you always switch Strength, Toughness, Initiative, and Attacks with the enemy unit you are challenging.
Ranald's Mischief copies 2 of Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Initiative, or Leadership. Again, chosen at random.
The Speculum is certainly considerably more powerful, at least mechanically. Though it's also more limited in some ways, such as only being able to switch with the unit the character is challenging, and having to switch, while Ranald's Mischief just needs an enemy unit within 24".
Last edited:
Well, Mathilde is already aware that earthbound energies are drawn into the waystone network. Turn 41 Social - 2490 - Part 1 is where Mathilde read into the elementalist books from Nuln and she notes that most earhbound energies are drawn into the waystone network.
You can see the extended text in that part for more details, but essentially it involves Mathilde coming to understand where the standard college view of Earthbound magic (as being colorless, among other things) has gone wrong. What you've described as the DL meaning is more the Colleges meaning, but the lore from the elementalists books is closer to the Winds of Magic meaning, at least as I understand the situation.
I think you're generally right that elementalism could contribute to the Waystone Project - if not the actual elementalists in Nuln, then some theoretical more skilled ones. In fact, we may learn more from the Library of Mourning books since elves do not alter the nature of the magic in their environment so are capable of elementalism in a way a college magister is not (we have some Asur books of elementalism now as it happens). Even futher - we may already be incorporating elementalist knowledge from the Laurelorn elven mages, but we just chalk it up to 'mysterious elven magical know-how'.
My gut feeling is that introducing elementalists would not be too helpful to understanding or building waystones, but may be really quite helpful to understanding leylines and the points on which nexus are built. I haven't gone in depth into the lore, but it certainly seems that the asur-dawi network was built over the bones of the geomantic web, and that the location of nexus points (and leylines) is not completely arbitrary. One thing that is quite difficult otherwise but may be easier with help from elementalists is the mapping of leyline networks and locating of lost waystones/nexuses - the Athel Yenui nexus we found from a map and comments from the Grey Lords, but Mathilde didn't notice it with mystical senses until inside the ruins.
Any ability map the network more easily could translate into any number of advantages, including groundwork to understanding nesuses, locating lost nexuses or where they should go, a better understanding of how and where to place waystones, and other such benefits. On the other hand there might be no benefits, we might already be getting the benefits via elves, and Mathilde probably wouldn't realise the link between the leylines of the asur-dawi network, and leyline as a fundamental property of the world (so to speak) linked to elementalism. Might be worth reading more books on.
An interesting look into The Old World lore too, thank you for sharing that. I'm still quite hesitant about it in general, but we'll see.
Edit: While writing this post I forgot about the one thing that prompted me to make it: The thing which intrigued me as a possible elementalism-waystone network link was how exactly Laurelorn was detecting the reconnection of K8P. I mean sure, Thorek (and presumably other runelords) recorded disturbances that they correlated to world events, but Laurelorn seem to be able to detect waystone network activity in a fairly profound way. I don't ever recall finding out how they did this and this jumps to mind - mostly due to a lack of me thinking of possibilites rather than as a comment on how plausible that is.
Last edited:
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Favor alone does not really tell us how useful something is. IIRC, Boney stated that the Seed ended up more powerful than it normally would be, and that was attributed to Mathilde's deeds in Drakenhof as well as for advancing to Magister.
Similarly, while the Belt was 15 favors' worth, there were big narrative considerations: Not only was it made by Kragg, but the amount we spent on it was the amount we got in totality during the campaign - Mathilde not only avenged some old grudges, but she showed her mettle in frontline combat, acted in the way any loyal individual should toward their lord and liege, and fulfilled her oath. She proved herself by their measure.
I'm sure that trying to get a 15-favor talisman from anyone other than Kragg, or for doing 15 smaller things that each granted 1 Favor, would have resulted in a much less impressive Belt.
...
I'm not trying to say the Dragonflask is bad or anything like that. It gets its job done, and it will continue to do so until such a time until we either learn/make more Battle Magics or commission/make something better.
But we absolutely could do better in that slot, in the long run. I dislike the aesthetic, I'm so-so on it being Aqshy, and I'm sure that with skill, the proper magical materials, and luck, we can make something that shoots out a powerful direct damage spell more than once per day.
...A smaller part of me is inclined to bite the bullet, start learning more Battle Magic, and replace the flask with a second Grounding Rod. Having more capacity to protect yourself from miscasts is always a good thing.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That one was regular grounding - it was very close to things going bad, given that we had Ranald's Blessing on that one, but still, regular grounding.
Mathilde's never actually been forced to use the Grounding Rod that she bought. I think the closest we got to that was the first time she cast the Miasma and then managed to turn the initial miscast into a kind of one-off Dispel against the illusion of the daemonic horde. I imagine that if that had been less of a good roll, she would have tried to ground it with the Rod.
The most likely scenario in which the Rod gets used in the future is if we either learn more Battle Magic (that we cannot cast reliably with the Staff) or if we are forced to cast in unusual circumstances.
Even for "reliable" spells, wizards can run the risk of miscasting for casting the same thing over and over (happened during the Skull River incident and the Moockery of Death thing, though the rod wasn't usable for either of them), casting while tired (has happened only once, after the Only Gork/Mork thing), and when an enemy successfully counters your spells well enough (we've done this to the Orcs before, leading to us getting Waaaghbane).
So there is value in keeping the Rod, even if Mathilde's been lucky and skilled enough to not need it thus far.
- Location
- Australia
Asur pantheonic mandala
Druchii pantheonic mandala
What's surprising to me is that the Asur have Mathlann on the inner ring but the Druchii don't. He's Cytharai and really important to the boat activities their civilisation needs to survive, and yet he isn't even first on their outer ring. On the inner ring, he's beaten out by Ladrielle, protector of hidden and lost things and patron of wilderness travellers.
Side note, I like that Mathlann's rune looks like an anchor.
Side note, I like that Mathlann's rune looks like an anchor.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The wilderness in Naggaroth is incredibly bad, and it doesn't feel like a very Kurnous-like wilderness, so perhaps it shouldn't be that surprising that Ladrielle is so high up. It would be very easy to get lost there, and also very easy to hide things from being found. But I'm amazed she's higher up than Drakira. The Druchii are known for being big on vengeance.
I'm not that surprised at Manann's position. For all that Druchii are big on raiding with their ships and have Underworld Sea under Naggaroth, even Ulthuan (which is entirely an island nation) only has him barely on the inner ring - if he fell a single position he'd be relegated to the outer ring.
I'm not that surprised at Manann's position. For all that Druchii are big on raiding with their ships and have Underworld Sea under Naggaroth, even Ulthuan (which is entirely an island nation) only has him barely on the inner ring - if he fell a single position he'd be relegated to the outer ring.
Last edited:
infinityDivided
Prince Of Doom
- Location
- USA
I mean, there's no reason to not keep the rod. It's a thin piece of copper, it ain't exactly over-encumbering Mathilde.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
It is taking up one of Mathilde's 'activated items' slots, along with the Flask and the Candle.
I don't think we've necessarily come up with anything better, though.
The candle is an incredibly specific piece of equipment. But not having it when needed is just about the worst fate that is just a death, and not eternal damnation.
Andres was quoting from The Old World. Boney hasn't said anything about The Old World's canonicty, but I presume it would be Tier 5, noncanon by default.
I don't see why the Elementalists would be helpful. Mathilde didn't notice the Athel Yenlui nexus because there wasn't a leyline for her to notice. The nexus was draining magic out of the Dreaming Forest, not the leylines. Tochter probably would have been more helpful than any Elementalist could be. Both because she could have pulled upon Belthani sources and experience with forests. I'm not sure what happened to the waystones connected to Athel Yenlui though.
Laurelorn noticed it by keeping an eye on their nexuses. Think of it as air carrying sound though a house. The majority of the doors are open and a shout will carry through it. But the Karaz Ankor's network has a door between it and the rest of the house. A loud shout on either side of the door will be heard by the other, but it will be muffled. I don't see a reason to think they keep an eye on it in a radically different way as the Dwarfs do besides being able to directly use windsight rather than relying on tools.
Last edited: