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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Talon TigerDino said:
Well yeah, she could just slap him with the Seed, easy.
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Or she would have intentionally recruited from the Jades for the campaign, not just the Lights. She would have been strong enough that the zombie horde might not have gotten him. She could have enchanted him some good armor.

Or...

Well, we could be here all day. Of all the most terrible words in this world, the worst are "What if..."
 
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deathofrats0808 said:
No it didn't. Or rather, as far as we know it didn't. Hoeth wasn't punished for sharing knowledge that specifically led to the Vortex. Like here is the canon text on the incident: "the Elves believe it was he who gifted their race with much of the knowledge they now take for granted. Opinion is divided on precisely why Hoeth did so. Most Elves believe Hoeth's actions were founded in generosity, but some mutter darkly of how knowledge leads to progress, and progress inevitably leads to the ruin of tradition. Whatever the motiation, legend tells that when Asuryan learned of Hoeth's actions, he rebuked the Lord of Wisdom and, in punishment, set much of Hoeth's great library ablaze."

That doesn't say "Hoeth gave the knowledge about the Vortex and saved the world". Because he didn't, Caledor is credited with that. Hell, it doesn't even say that daemons existed when this happened. This says "Hoeth gave the Elves a tech base, and asuryan punished him for it".
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I think the foundation he is talking about here is that bit from Realms of Sorcery where it said Anaerion did not like the Vortex because Asuryan did not like it, though that also extends to all gods. The Vortex makes all gods including Hoeth less able to act so that connection that makes Hoeth the Good guy and the burning of the library an act of tyranny from Asuryan is pretty weak.

Of course one can just hold the moral position that tradition is never a good reason to destroy knowledge, I do for instance. While there certainly exists knowledge that helps no one and would be better off not existing, Necromancy is an IC example, if one cannot find a better mark against a piece of knowledge than 'it harms tradition' that is not logical. Thus Asuryan was a tyrant in that moment (at least from what we know).
 
Boney said:
This gives you as many cultural reasons to dedicate some of your limited spare time to it as you have political ones, and as the city gears up for the Festival, you feel confident that it will be time well spent.
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You know, Mathilde, you can just go watch the olypmics for the heck of it. Not everything has to be work.
Boney said:
(Whether that means that there was a God demoted from the Cadai, or whether the Pantheonic Mandala once changed size as needed, is a very significant question you've yet to receive a straight answer to.)
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Ladrielle seems to be one of the Cadai, so She might have been the one that got demoted. But Ladrielle's sigil in the Asur Mandala has the little devil horns that most Cytharai have, so there's a little ambiguity here.
Boney said:
(But, interestingly, not Nethu, Keeper of the Last Door and son of Ereth Khial. What little you know of his role suggests that it begins and ends with guarding His mother's domain, but that the Eonir demoted Ereth Khial instead of Nethu suggests that there's more to Him. Are there more powers and domains within the deeper secrets of His cult, or are those that claim that Nethu's father is Asuryan correct, and it is His father's influence that has kept his place within the Eonir mandala secure?)
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👀
Boney said:
Its fiery aura circles around you, repelled by the Ulgu of your soul, and those standing nearest to you in the crowd give you a dirty look.
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Now the elf prejudice against soul mutilation becomes much more sensible - chiselfingers can't watch sports. Of course they'll be looked down upon by mainstream society!
Boney said:
The Temple of Asuryan is responsible for choosing the exact format of this event, and they've chosen to cleave very closely to the most traditional format: one where the two must demonstrate which is most able to emulate the deeds of the most favoured champion of Asuryan, who was, at least according to the Eonir, Aenarion the Defender. He was also the great-great-great grandfather of Queen Marrisith, a point that is subtly but repeatedly emphasized at various points throughout the ceremonies. According to legend he wielded a mere hunting spear the first time he took the battlefield, and from there would take up a weapon of a slain enemy and use it until his God-given strength shattered it. His later dalliance with the Sword of Khaine is not the part of his tale that this Temple of Asuryan lingers on. As such, the competitors will enter the arena carrying a spear, but the arena is ringed with every kind of melee weapon imaginable. All are made of a heavy but fragile wood that will shatter painfully on a direct hit, their edges blunt but daubed with a dye that will not only make every cut clearly visible, but will also make the bruises they leave burn even worse.

In theory, the marks will make it able to identify which blows would have been killing blows, but theory also holds that one properly favoured by Asuryan would be able to shrug those off in actual combat. Therefore combat continues until one combatant is so bruised and battered by weapons being shattered on them that they are unwilling or unable to continue, and the marks are purely there for spectacle.
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This is a really creative concept and I like it a lot.
Boney said:
Kadoh's challenger goes by the name of Oriouloc, which you frown at as you try to mentally translate it until you realize that whatever it originally was, it's been melded into a tribute to his former patron of House Elwyn. That, you suppose, answers the question of whether or not his candidacy is political. He's lither than Kadoh, which still means that he'd be considered muscular by human standards and is absurdly so by Elven ones.
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I'm not sure I get it? Oriour is blood/birth, but I can't see what 'loc' could be a fragment of. Is Mathilde just assuming that the blood in question is the blood of House Elwyn?
Boney said:
Oriouloc reaches the edge of the arena and manages to get his hands on his chosen weapon - an intricate-looking halberd of some sort that causes a chorus of mutters to rise from the crowd - but the second he took his eyes off the approaching Kadoh to reach for the weapon, he'd accelerated forward and Oriouloc turns back to catch a fist to the face, sending him sprawling across the sand. He manages to retain his grip on the halberd for a moment, which means that Kadoh's next punch goes to Oriouloc's arm, causing a crack to ring out, mirrored by a second, much milder one as Kadoh takes the halberd and breaks it in half.

The rest of the engagement is an exercise in flawless brutality, as Kadoh times his attacks just enough that Oriouloc would have time to yield between blows, but never enough time to fully recover his footing. To his credit, Oriouloc holds out for long enough for it to stop being sad and start being impressive, but he does eventually surrender to inevitability and signal his surrender, and with it, what was likely to have been the last chance for the isolationist bloc to turn back the clock.
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Kind of reminds me of the Supreme Patriarch duel where instead of going for the staff Dragomas just pounced on his opponent. Kadoh can just take the Halberd and use it, or take any other weapon for that matter, but he seems to prefer to assert his dominance by just powering through on his own strength. I suppose he might also be a little predisposed to fists after sparring with Johann so much those past few years.

Boney said:
"I felt it was right to warn you that there will not be another Van Hal on the throne of Stirland." You consider that and nod, not needing further elaboration, but she evidently feels the need to give it anyway. "Father's ambition was to finally bury the Vanhel legacy for good, to free the rest of the family from the grip it has always had on us. I've come to believe that replacing Vanhaldenschlosse with Eagle Castle doesn't achieve that. What needs to be done is that Sylvania needs to be brought down to the point where it can be kept suppressed by any competent administrator, and then allow the position to pass to someone with a blank enough slate that their victories will earn them glory, rather than just paying the interest on thirteen centuries of inherited shame."
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That's completely fair. Go live your best life Rosie, you and your family don't owe anyone anything.
Boney said:
"That... might actually change the situation," she says, drumming her fingers on the table and frowning. "Burying the family legacy is one thing, but being crowned Empress Van Hal for finally subjugating Sylvania would be a complete triumph over it." She hesitates, her eyes darting over to you as she considers whether to continue. "And a not inconsiderable personal vindication, as well," she admits.
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...just when she thought she was out, Mathilde pulls her back in.
Boney said:
Part of you still flinches at the memory of Roswita so summarily banishing you from what had become your home, and that part of you quite likes that part of Roswita is still intimidated by what she imagines you to be and to have been. You don't want to give Roswita the ability to treat the younger version of yourself with the same contempt that part of you does.

So you remain silent, and let Roswita imagine whatever it is she imagines.

"Thank you," she finally says to you, and you just smile and nod.
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This whole section was really lovely, thank you for that.
 
Does Roswita know Abelhelm had the Libre Mortis?
Because I think it is clear that some stuff is passed down from generation to generation before death e.g. how to safely hide children.
 
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Boney said:
"Because I'm an unmarried and apparently childless woman
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Childlessness might matter less than she thinks, it's the unmarried bit that really cinches things for her. WFRP 4e: Altdorf - Crown of the Empire, page 18:
The Emperor is publicly chaste and unattached, all the better to keep the Elector Counts hopeful of a dynastic match. But tavern gossips tell of romantic liaisons in Talabheim, suggesting that he had an affair with Arch Lector Aglim's niece, Lotte. Others suggest a longtime affair with Duchess Elise. Still others, that he stays in the High Temple of Sigmar with a different priest or priestess each night.

The Emperor knows to maintain a dignified silence against such calumny, but the seizure of Ubersreik is an open example of his recent intemperance. [...]

'Empress' Maria-Luise von Walfen
The Emperor is a bachelor, but he is tremendously fond of the mother of his two children. A Lady at Court, Maria-Luise is a childhood friend of the Emperor, and his distant cousin. Maria-Luise is a responsible and conscientious mother to the Emperor's children, and aware of her precarious political position. During public appearances she is demure and aloof, but those who know her understand that she is canny, observant, and loyal. Within the confines of the Privy Council, her voice is heard and heeded. In a spirit of respectful jesting, other Privy Councillors do refer to her as 'Empress', but they would be reckless to do so where agents of the Elector Counts might hear them.

Karl-Franz and Maria-Luise have two children. The Emperor has legitimised Prince Luitpold and made him heir to Altdorf. He is not a Grand Prince in waiting, however, as Karl-Franz's nephew Crown Prince Wolfgang Holswig-Abenauer is heir to Reikland. Karl-Franz and Mara-Luise's daughter, Alia, is a rambunctious toddler.

Prince Luitpold
Despite his growing confidence in matters of statecraft and his fair character, Prince Luitpold does not command the affection of Altdorfers. A popular but preposterous rumour has it that the prince is responsible for the continuing concealed existence of a mad and monstrous twin brother, reared in secret and let out only at night to prevent him preying on the palace's wealthy and important guests.
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Karl-Franz publicly has two children, one of whom he's outright legitimised and made heir to Altdorf and has rumours going about him, and still he can string around the Elector Counts simply by being unmarried.
 
Eisenhelm said:
please Ranald, plase; let this child be a wizard as well.
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Boney.

Boney....
BONEY!

You know. You know you want to roll the dice. Come on.

And even if you think that a fourth d100 is simulating the actual odds a bit too inaccurately, then why not be accurate and roll a 1d30000?

It'll be fun. What's the worst that could happen?
 
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For anyone wondering what Oriouloc's name means, the last part is probably a reference to Lord Lindialoc, the last head of House Elwyn.

The guy was practically declaring himself Lindialoc's heir.
 
Boney said:
The Queen doesn't have a House. 'Major House' has a specific definition in Tor Lithanel and the Queen's family doesn't match it. Also, there's only been four generations of her family in the entire history of Laurelorn.
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I guess the question I should have asked is do we know anything at all about her still living family that doesn't predate the founding of Tor Lithanel?
Boney said:
Why would anyone need to know about the firstborn ever? If the Van Hals couldn't keep the existence of their children secret, then they would have been wiped out somewhere in the thirteen centuries they've spent pissing off every Vampire on the continent.
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In the case of aspiring to a dynastic marriage, no one knowing would have to include the child themselves, essentially taking away their "birthright" of Stirland's throne, otherwise she's just setting up potential future conflict. So that would be different (I assume) to how Roswita herself was raised, since she knew her surname and was raised with the burden of her legacy.

Here's the options I see for a Roswita aspiring to become Empress and using marriage as a tool for it:
  • She has her kid openly. The kid is her heir. She marries someone who is okay with their future mutual child not inheriting Stirland. They put effort into raising a second child who is also okay with not inheriting Stirland, which may or may not work out. This may or may not include the firstborn not aspiring to become Emperor after their mother. Members of their extended family might attempt to meddle.
  • She keeps her kid a secret but raises them as a Van Hal, similar to how she herself was raised (and presumably similar to how it has been done in her family for generations. She then pretends to be a childless woman and marries accordingly. Her spouse's family expects to have a heir to Stirland that is related to them.
    • She essentially disowns her firstborn from her noble titles. The firstborn is okay with not inheriting those. They spend their lives doing some traditional Vanhaling or whatever. The second child becomes heir to Stirland and whatever titles the spouse brings to the table. The second child becomes crown princeps of the Empire if Roswita is elected. The two siblings have no contact until after the latter is secure in their position.
    • She may or may not disown her firstborn. Either way the firstborn thinks being EC of Stirland would be rad, actually. They spend their youth building an independent support base. Roswita has a second child who thinks they are the heir to Stirland, as does the whole extended family of the child's other parent. Roswita dies. There is a succession dispute. Even if the dispute is of minor impact, there is still resentment from one or more of her children.
    • She keeps her firstborn secret long enough to secure an advantageous marriage and then reveals him later. Problems ensue. Even if her spouse is okay with it, there's many more people who might feel wronged and be driven to unsavory actions.
    • She keeps her firstborn a secret and "happens" to never have any other children. The spouse and their side of the family are at first a bit disappointed but infertility is a fact of life (except Shallyans and Jades and adoption are a thing so I don't know). Roswita not having an apparent heir prevents certain kinds of dynastic dealing and wheeling. When she dies her actual heir comes out of the woodworks, complete with proof of providence, just like she did. Her spouse and their family are very likely resentful. Her heir has a harder time building up their own alliances.
  • She keeps her kid a secret and also keeps the kid's heritage a secret from themselves. She essentially gives it up for anonymous adoption, or anonymous insofar that even if the adoptive parents know, they are not supposed to ever tell anyone. In other words she decides that this child born out of wedlock should not be treated as if it was her child. At best she may risk opsec in order to direct various advantages or favors to the child. They become a normal Imperial citizen of whatever rank and surname the adoptive parents have and live a relatively normal life plus or minus a powerful secret benefactor.
Am I missing any?


Honestly, given her initial plans I am a bit surprised that she decided to get pregnant in the first place. My understanding was that, at least for the rich, WHF contraception was easier and more comfortable to use than IRL contraception.
 
Derpmind said:
Maybe. But I'd rather spend that AP to try to invent a shadow sword spell that can replicate the effect of the Rune of the Unknown. That way Mathilde can use her Branarhune techniques while flexing her spell creation cred. (#shadowswordlobby once again.)
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Let's make the shadowsword include a dispel effect. If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing.
 
Rafin said:
I guess the question I should have asked is do we know anything at all about her still living family that doesn't predate the founding of Tor Lithanel?

In the case of aspiring to a dynastic marriage, no one knowing would have to include the child themselves, essentially taking away their "birthright" of Stirland's throne, otherwise she's just setting up potential future conflict. So that would be different (I assume) to how Roswita herself was raised, since she knew her surname and was raised with the burden of her legacy.

Here's the options I see for a Roswita aspiring to become Empress and using marriage as a tool for it:
  • She has her kid openly. The kid is her heir. She marries someone who is okay with their future mutual child not inheriting Stirland. They put effort into raising a second child who is also okay with not inheriting Stirland, which may or may not work out. This may or may not include the firstborn not aspiring to become Emperor after their mother. Members of their extended family might attempt to meddle.
  • She keeps her kid a secret but raises them as a Van Hal, similar to how she herself was raised (and presumably similar to how it has been done in her family for generations. She then pretends to be a childless woman and marries accordingly. Her spouse's family expects to have a heir to Stirland that is related to them.
    • She essentially disowns her firstborn from her noble titles. The firstborn is okay with not inheriting those. They spend their lives doing some traditional Vanhaling or whatever. The second child becomes heir to Stirland and whatever titles the spouse brings to the table. The second child becomes crown princeps of the Empire if Roswita is elected. The two siblings have no contact until after the latter is secure in their position.
    • She may or may not disown her firstborn. Either way the firstborn thinks being EC of Stirland would be rad, actually. They spend their youth building an independent support base. Roswita has a second child who thinks they are the heir to Stirland, as does the whole extended family of the child's other parent. Roswita dies. There is a succession dispute. Even if the dispute is of minor impact, there is still resentment from one or more of her children.
    • She keeps her firstborn secret long enough to secure an advantageous marriage and then reveals him later. Problems ensue. Even if her spouse is okay with it, there's many more people who might feel wronged and be driven to unsavory actions.
    • She keeps her firstborn a secret and "happens" to never have any other children. The spouse and their side of the family are at first a bit disappointed but infertility is a fact of life (except Shallyans and Jades and adoption are a thing so I don't know). Roswita not having an apparent heir prevents certain kinds of dynastic dealing and wheeling. When she dies her actual heir comes out of the woodworks, complete with proof of providence, just like she did. Her spouse and their family are very likely resentful. Her heir has a harder time building up their own alliances.
  • She keeps her kid a secret and also keeps the kid's heritage a secret from themselves. She essentially gives it up for anonymous adoption, or anonymous insofar that even if the adoptive parents know, they are not supposed to ever tell anyone. In other words she decides that this child born out of wedlock should not be treated as if it was her child. At best she may risk opsec in order to direct various advantages or favors to the child. They become a normal Imperial citizen of whatever rank and surname the adoptive parents have and live a relatively normal life plus or minus a powerful secret benefactor.
Am I missing any?


Honestly, given her initial plans I am a bit surprised that she decided to get pregnant in the first place. My understanding was that, at least for the rich, WHF contraception was easier and more comfortable to use than IRL contraception.
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She could pass the kid off as a nephew from Abelhelm's other secret children.
 
Angelform said:
Sod the mage, I want to talk with some Ulthuan dragons. They are hoarding old lore.
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Well, Deathfang is one of the eldest Ulthuani dragons still running around instead of napping, is already in the Old World and already knows and, if not likes, then at least accepts us. If what you want is Dragon Deep Lore, he is a much better source then a random Sun Dragon we might run into in Naggarithe
mathymancer said:
You know, Mathilde, you can just go watch the olypmics for the heck of it. Not everything has to be work.
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(Un)fortunately, Meowthilde is a professional workaholic. The sort that thinks "rest" means "doing someone elses job for them".
 
deathofrats0808 said:
My read of Asuryan is Lawful over Good. That's not a desirable characteristic, but it is fair.
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This is somewhat complicated argument that seem to be going on but I have to make a note here;

You can make that argument but only because this is a fictional setting and divine politics are involved but IRL last time this argument was made was Nazis saying they were just following orders and international courts have refused that argument thereby setting modern philosphy of justice since then as one which says there is no Lawful without Good. It is actually why judges are given so much broad powers to set punishment, they are expected to follow their consience (I don't remember if that is written down or not but I know it is a thing).

So no, IRL any argument that says follow the law even if it means death of people is failure state rather than intented way to follow laws and it is not fair at all.
 
Tasoli said:
You can make that argument but only because this is a fictional setting and divine politics are involved but IRL last time this argument was made was Nazis saying they were just following orders and international courts have refused that argument thereby setting modern philosphy of justice since then as one which says there is no Lawful without Good. It is actually why judges are given so much broad powers to set punishment, they are expected to follow their consience (I don't remember if that is written down or not but I know it is a thing).

So no, IRL any argument that says follow the law even if it means death of people is failure state rather than intented way to follow laws and it is not fair at all.
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The "following orders" argument is implicitly made and accepted every time a government punishes a deserter from the army for not following the order to stay in the army, and was explicitly made and upheld in the Western legal tradition in 2006, in the Hinzman case.

A summary: Jeremy Hinzman had enlisted in the US Army, he deserted to avoid having to fight in the Iraq War, and fled to Canada. There he applied for asylum because he feared he'd be ordered to illegally kill people in the army, and he'd be persecuted for not doing so. The Canadian Federal Court ruled that Hinzman was obliged to follow military orders and should not be making his own decisions here about what's illegal, punishments for desertion are not persecution. The court therefore rejected his plea for asylum. The Canadian Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal.

(Hinzman got sympathy and was allowed to stay in Canada anyway on a residency filing, separate from the asylum application.)
 
Exmorri said:
The "following orders" argument is implicitly made and accepted every time a government punishes a deserter from the army for not following the order to stay in the army, and was explicitly made and upheld in the Western legal tradition in 2006, in the Hinzman case.

A summary: Jeremy Hinzman had enlisted in the US Army, he deserted to avoid having to fight in the Iraq War, and fled to Canada. There he applied for asylum because he feared he'd be ordered to illegally kill people in the army, and he'd be persecuted for not doing so. The Canadian Federal Court ruled that Hinzman was obliged to follow military orders and should not be making his own decisions here about what's illegal, punishments for desertion are not persecution. The court therefore rejected his plea for asylum. The Canadian Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal.

(Hinzman got sympathy and was allowed to stay in Canada anyway on a residency filing, separate from the asylum application.)
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He deserted on the suspicion rather than a specific cause, But counterpoint is Criminal Orders are well enshirined in the international law. How ever not being a lawyer I can't just point cases from the top of my head and argue specifics.

Never the less Punishment without mercy is tyranny and something evil being lawful and therefore Fair is just laugable.
Altom said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't there several exceptions? Like for low ranking troops?
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Circles back to Judges following their conscience, if they felt like they had not meaningful way to change the outcome and were under distress it makes sense.

Which again leads to fact that no law is absolute precisely because if it leads to evil it should not be followed.
 
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