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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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pucflek said:
If the law says you die and you don´t follow it, then you are good and the law is fucking dumb and Asuryan being a little mad bitch about it changes nothing about it being very fair.

His law way of a tyrant because it demanded death of the entire world to satisfy his bloodlust that would get him lost too to boot. There was nothing fair in the equation there.
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No it didn't. Or rather, as far as we know it didn't. Hoeth wasn't punished for sharing knowledge that specifically led to the Vortex. Like here is the canon text on the incident: "the Elves believe it was he who gifted their race with much of the knowledge they now take for granted. Opinion is divided on precisely why Hoeth did so. Most Elves believe Hoeth's actions were founded in generosity, but some mutter darkly of how knowledge leads to progress, and progress inevitably leads to the ruin of tradition. Whatever the motiation, legend tells that when Asuryan learned of Hoeth's actions, he rebuked the Lord of Wisdom and, in punishment, set much of Hoeth's great library ablaze."

That doesn't say "Hoeth gave the knowledge about the Vortex and saved the world". Because he didn't, Caledor is credited with that. Hell, it doesn't even say that daemons existed when this happened. This says "Hoeth gave the Elves a tech base, and asuryan punished him for it".
 
deathofrats0808 said:
No it didn't. Or rather, as far as we know it didn't. Hoeth wasn't punished for sharing knowledge that specifically led to the Vortex. Like here is the canon text on the incident: "the Elves believe it was he who gifted their race with much of the knowledge they now take for granted. Opinion is divided on precisely why Hoeth did so. Most Elves believe Hoeth's actions were founded in generosity, but some mutter darkly of how knowledge leads to progress, and progress inevitably leads to the ruin of tradition. Whatever the motiation, legend tells that when Asuryan learned of Hoeth's actions, he rebuked the Lord of Wisdom and, in punishment, set much of Hoeth's great library ablaze."

That doesn't say "Hoeth gave the knowledge about the Vortex and saved the world". Because he didn't, Caledor is credited with that. Hell, it doesn't even say that daemons existed when this happened. This says "Hoeth gave the Elves a tech base, and asuryan punished him for it".
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If we're going by a strict reading of the original text and nothing else, it doesn't actually say there were any laws against it.

If there were laws against it I certainly doubt the proscribed punishment was "I will burn down your library."
 
fictionfan said:
Considering how much is riding on it now I have to wonder if Boney has a planed story beat for Luitpold to die or if he is regularly rolling health rolls in the background.
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Boney's previously said he doesn't really plan ahead because unexpected things always come up (see: Mandred developing magesight). So I have to imagine he either rolls or every few turns he looks at Luitpold's age and stress and the sort of healthcare available to him and goes 'nah he still has some years in him'.
 
fictionfan said:
Considering how much is riding on it now I have to wonder if Boney has a planed story beat for Luitpold to die or if he is regularly rolling health rolls in the background.
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If there are rolls they'll be rolls with pretty hefty bonuses, not just the Jade Order checking up on his health but also possibly the Cult of Shallya depending on how their relations are with Luitpold and how interventionist they're willing to be handing out divine intervention and in the background there's Ranald with a finger on the scale because the longer Luitpold is alive the more time that buys for Mandred to graduate past apprentice and accomplish impressive things, allowing him to become a viable candidate for Emperor at the Elector Count election and giving Ranald a chance to salvage his original "Ranaldian Emperor" scheme before Mandred being a Wizard derailed things.
 
reignonyrparade said:
If we're going by a strict reading of the original text and nothing else, it doesn't actually say there were any laws against it.

If there were laws against it I certainly doubt the proscribed punishment was "I will burn down your library."
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That's true, although I feel I should point out that there isn't really proscribed punishment in pre-modern states and even in modern states judges wield a startlingly large amount of power to determine sentences.

That said, I seem to remember somewhere that there's a law that the Elven gods aren't supposed to interact with the mortal world, which is the law I was referencing. Can't find it where I thought it was though, so it's possible I've misremembered something.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
That's true, although I feel I should point out that there isn't really proscribed punishment in pre-modern states and even in modern states judges wield a startlingly large amount of power to determine sentences.
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"It was probably within Asuryans technical authority to punish Hoeth extremely vindictively" doesn't make it not extremely vindictive, and that alone speaks poorly for how fair asuryan is supposd to be.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
No it didn't. Or rather, as far as we know it didn't. Hoeth wasn't punished for sharing knowledge that specifically led to the Vortex. Like here is the canon text on the incident: "the Elves believe it was he who gifted their race with much of the knowledge they now take for granted. Opinion is divided on precisely why Hoeth did so. Most Elves believe Hoeth's actions were founded in generosity, but some mutter darkly of how knowledge leads to progress, and progress inevitably leads to the ruin of tradition. Whatever the motiation, legend tells that when Asuryan learned of Hoeth's actions, he rebuked the Lord of Wisdom and, in punishment, set much of Hoeth's great library ablaze."

That doesn't say "Hoeth gave the knowledge about the Vortex and saved the world". Because he didn't, Caledor is credited with that. Hell, it doesn't even say that daemons existed when this happened. This says "Hoeth gave the Elves a tech base, and asuryan punished him for it".
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If law says you gotta stay in dark ages instead of advancing, its still unfair. I don´t care what affinities you try to apply here, unless Hoeth tried to literally give elves to chaos, then what he did was a benign act that was punished by the chief tyrant kicking his teeth in. Apply what logic you want here, i don´t give a fuck, anyone with more than two braincells can see its faulty.

Hurr durr i am the big. If you do not give obeissance to big it not fair. Hurr durr.
 
Boney said:
According to legend he wielded a mere hunting spear the first time he took the battlefield, and from there would take up a weapon of a slain enemy and use it until his God-given strength shattered it. His later dalliance with the Sword of Khaine is not the part of his tale that this Temple of Asuryan lingers on. As such, the competitors will enter the arena carrying a spear, but the arena is ringed with every kind of melee weapon imaginable. All are made of a heavy but fragile wood that will shatter painfully on a direct hit, their edges blunt but daubed with a dye that will not only make every cut clearly visible, but will also make the bruises they leave burn even worse.
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Boney said:
Oriouloc reaches the edge of the arena and manages to get his hands on his chosen weapon - an intricate-looking halberd of some sort that causes a chorus of mutters to rise from the crowd -
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Hmm. I wonder what the halberd represented. It feels likely, given this set-up that it was going to have some kind of political statement built-in. Maybe it was the weapon Kadoh used in the last Festival? That would have been quite ironic.
 
reignonyrparade said:
"It was probably within Asuryans technical authority to punish Hoeth extremely vindictively" doesn't make it not extremely vindictive, and that alone speaks poorly for how fair asuryan is supposd to be.
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Thre's no indication that it was particularly vindictive. It was a targeted punishment sure, but it also prevents Hoeth pulling the same thing again.

pucflek said:
If law says you gotta stay in dark ages instead of advancing, its still unfair. I don´t care what affinities you try to apply here, unless Hoeth tried to literally give elves to chaos, then what he did was a benign act that was punished by the chief tyrant kicking his teeth in. Apply what logic you want here, i don´t give a fuck, anyone with more than two braincells can see its faulty.

Hurr durr i am the big. If you do not give obeissance to big it not fair. Hurr durr.
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If you read it that way sure. You could also read it as Asuryan punishing Hoeth for giving effectively weapons to the Elves which might lead to them attacking the gods. Especially if you use quest canon, where the Elven gods originated as Old One researchers.

Or you could read it as a Prime Directive style thing, wherein giving advanced knowledge is considered risky, becasue they might destroy themselves with it.

Parabola said:
Hmm. I wonder what the halberd represented. It feels likely, given this set-up that it was going to have some kind of political statement built-in. Maybe it was the weapon Kadoh used in the last Festival? That would have been quite ironic.
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Asuryan's monastic warrior order wield halberds.
 
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Fairness is a complicated thing with multiple contradictory definitions. One could say life is fair because it depends on luck, a completely impartial roll of the die governs the circumstances you're born into as well as many of the life events you experience as you live through you're life. No one is inherently favored or disfavored by luck it's completely impartial (at least in universes where Ranald doesn't exist). One could also argue by that very same measure luck is what makes life unfair, that it gives some better lives than others for no reason, that it rewards the undeserving and punishes the deserving. Two different definitions of fairness, impartiality and equitability, both of them valid.
 
Wodger said:
Boney using Cunning to hide the modifiers but we all saw Kadoh's Brutality, all signs point to the return of Gork and Mork.
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So for me I the biggest "what if" that keeps me awake at night regarding this quest is "what the hell would've happened if Mathilde decided to go all in on channeling Mork n Gork that one time," is the biggest.

Hard to be purely objective now but I think even pre Slayer!Borek if Boney ran a special "what if" event I would've voted to see that over "the mystery of Dum," "what if Abelhelm survived," etc
 
fictionfan said:
Considering how much is riding on it now I have to wonder if Boney has a planed story beat for Luitpold to die or if he is regularly rolling health rolls in the background.
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Given what I very vaguely recall Boney saying about rolling for developments in other polities outside Mathilde's scope being far more limited and the level of abstraction I've seen in similar world development quests, I'd assume there's probably some roll for other provinces and/or polities either once a turn or once a year, and if Reikland/Empire-At-Large rolls low enough, one of the results is "the Emperor dies." Either flat out, or through a crisis sub-roll.

That or a roll for "years left in life" made once, bell curved towards a certain average, and thereafter never spoken of until the moment arrives.
 
fictionfan said:
Considering how much is riding on it now I have to wonder if Boney has a planed story beat for Luitpold to die or if he is regularly rolling health rolls in the background.
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There's also a very dangerous war on the horizon that could do him in. I imagine "I retook Sylvania" becomes even more convincing when there's an everchosen to either kill or clean up after.
 
reignonyrparade said:
it doesn't actually say there were any laws against it.
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Was double checking a couple places to see if I could find that no interference law I mentioned, and noticed a thing:
"Asuryan is the judge between the disputes of the gods"
"when Asuryan learned of Hoeth's actions"

These taken together could imply it was some other god who had a problem with Hoeth's actions and Asuryan merely ruled in their favour as it were. Which would be a minor twist on it. If it was another god, my money would probably be on Ereth Khial. Seems like her style of "set the gods at each other's throats" with how she's described.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Thre's no indication that it was particularly vindictive. It was a targeted punishment sure, but it also prevents Hoeth pulling the same thing again.
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If it WASN'T vindictive that's frankly worse! "No, asuryan did act over the top this one time because of how particularly passed off he was, it's just that the entirety of the Justice Of The Heavens is pre-hammurabi when it comes to proportionality."

If it's the one he's unfair some of the time. If it's the latter he's unfair all of the time.
 
reignonyrparade said:
If it WASN'T vindictive that's frankly worse! "No, asuryan did act over the top this one time because of how particularly passed off he was, it's just that the entirety of the Justice Of The Heavens is pre-hammurabi when it comes to proportionality."

If it's the one he's unfair some of the time. If it's the latter he's unfair all of the time.
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I don't really see how the library burning is an inherently unfair punishment? Like, what would you have considered fair then? You can't fine or jail the guy, he has no money and only life sentences work on people who don't die of old age. You could brutalise him, but I'd say that's probably worse.
 
On Roswita's sprog's father, maybe it's just a fling, or maybe the dude died. I'm thinking fling myself personally. Roswita got bit by the baby bug and wanted one so she picked the most agreeable one she could find to do so.
 
Pacifying Sylvania under the protector sounds great. It seems better to maximize the coin considering how rarely we use the other faces.

That being said I just realized something. If we're starting the partial elfcation next turn, and we put the protector on that, are we gonna be placing the first waystone in millennia under the effects of the protector??
 
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AsuraAtlas said:
Pacifying Sylvania under the protector sounds great. It just seems better to maximize the coin considering how rarely we use the other faces.

That being said I just realized something. If we're starting the partial elfcation next turn, and we want the protector on that, are we gonna be placing the first waystone in millennia under the effects of the protector??
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While everything I've heard on the Protector says there shouldn't really be a mechanical benefit for it unless there is a clear and direct threat to be saved from...

It would be thematic entirely on it's own sake. In a "Even if Ranald the Protector does not nod to Mathilde, Mathilde shall nod to the Protector," kind of way. "This is my magnum opus, made to save the people here and just a little bit the world entire, that I have pursued entirely because I felt it was the right thing to do."
 
AsuraAtlas said:
That being said I just realized something. If we're starting the partial elfcation next turn, and we want the protector on that, are we gonna be placing the first waystone in millennia under the effects of the protector??
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IIRC Boney's said that if you have to explain to someone how you're protecting them, the Coin doesn't activate. Who knows - perhaps it'll proc, but only for elves, who understand the purpose of waystones very deeply compared to humans and dwarfs.

EDIT: Found it.
Boney said:
Well, let's ask. @BoneyM, would the Protector side of the coin trigger when we move the spiders? What does Mathilde think the effect would be?
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If you have to explain why that counts instead of it being absolutely straightforward obvious, you're barking up the wrong tree. "Killed Skaven that were going to attack you." Sure. "Distracted them so they couldn't attack you even though they were gonna," fine. "See because I personally mapped out a home for you that was behind our defences, I am saving you from potential future attacks-" no.
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Boney said:
The Protector isn't complicated, it's just made complicated by people playing word games. If you have to stop and explain why the Protector would apply, it doesn't. Kill something that would have killed people. Directly prevent an imminent attack. End something that is directly responsible for making peoples lives worse.
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Deploying waystones is not good enough.
 
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Angelform said:
There exists a tiny possibility that we could get a Phoenix companion for Mandred.
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Imo, the possibility is of zero. Phoenixes are Asuryan's most sacred servants, mounted only by the Asurs' greatest heroes. A human child in a backwater human country isn't going to make the cut. And Mathilde can't compel it to come with her, because even if she stumbles on one and gets a Scroll of Binding she will get massacred by all the Asurs between her and the ocean.
 
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