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My mental understanding of waystone production is currently inaccurate. About how many do we think we're going to be able to make a month? Half a waystone? One? Ten, assuming the different sections are assembled by different enchanters so most of the work can be done concurrently?
 
Ideally, we'd be able to do whole provinces in parallel, but we can't with the the Von Tarsus level enchanter bottleneck. We might be only be deploying to one place at a time.
Yeah, even in the best case scenario, it could be that taking two deployment actions simultaneously will mean that one of them gets the waystones deployed as soon as they're made, and that the other location's waystones get 'delayed' until the first location's done or mostly done. Like, Mathilde could spend the time from that action on getting the relevant authorities and contributing parties on the same page, so that they can eventually get it done without her needing to follow up on it.

My mental understanding of waystone production is currently inaccurate. About how many do we think we're going to be able to make a month? Half a waystone? One? Ten, assuming the different sections are assembled by different enchanters so most of the work can be done concurrently?
I don't know about any hard numbers on how many waystones a month, but the workflow will have to be split up anyway: One section requires a Runesmith, another requires the Jade Order specifically, one needs any one Wind enchanter, one (currently) needs an Archmage-level enchanter, and another requires a Qhaysh enchanter. Even if theoretically you could have the extremely good Archmage-level enchanter also do the simple Wind enchantment from the orbital mechanism or the simple Qhaysh enchantment, it'd be a waste of their efforts.

It's probably best not to poke too hard at the math here because the biggest bottleneck is the one that explicitly will get easier as more of them come out.
 
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Instead of just carpeting Sylvania in waystones it might be better to start by following the Stir and its tributaries, since that's where the towns mostly are. That won't solve the problem of some horror coming shambling out of the hills, but it would make it rarer that said horror appears in the middle of town.
 
My mental understanding of waystone production is currently inaccurate. About how many do we think we're going to be able to make a month? Half a waystone? One? Ten, assuming the different sections are assembled by different enchanters so most of the work can be done concurrently?
The current bottleneck is the storage, which took grey lord's half a year of research to reverse engineer, but which sarvoi seems to understand. So let's say worst case scenario being like ten per turn. Can't say what would best case scenario be. But it's got potential to go up sharply as the barrier of entry drops.
 
As far as production rates and bottlenecks go, one thing that's been on my mind for a while is pairing our current model with another, different design that uses none of the same parts, and so can be made by an entirely different set of people. I imagine I've probably advocated for it before, if not in so many words?

The biggest limit of the idea seems to me that the best way to pair the new model waystone with another proposal would be a small and cheap option for mass deployment, but that would require a new kind of riverine transmission, while we've already used one of the better options for a model meant to be deployed in forward or damaged areas.

The Hedgewise design seems like it would do great for (lightly) populated areas and hinterlands, but for less populated areas... Hmmm... *eyes Nehekara and their juicy riparian waystone designs.*
 
Instead of just carpeting Sylvania in waystones it might be better to start by following the Stir and its tributaries, since that's where the towns mostly are. That won't solve the problem of some horror coming shambling out of the hills, but it would make it rarer that said horror appears in the middle of town.
I mean, the towns will definitely be the first priority given the density of people, convenient placement and how they're more easily defended, but there's zero reason not to cover the rest of Sylvania by branching out from those. There's only 18 towns in Sylvania that are big enough to show up on the map - if we include the Council of Manhorak's assorted bog/marsh/swamp territories, that's 22 places worthy of priority.

But once you've covered those, it's just a natural conclusion that you'll want to connect other waystones to those waystones, to make the horrors less likely to come out in the first place. The Hunter's Hills are probably next after the towns, given that they're a county's worth of grazelands and how they have a number of people who decided to set up shop there.

After that, it's probably the various Sylvanian forests, which IIRC are getting slowly clear-cut so that gribblies dont hide out and regain their strengths there. And after those, the last priority is probably ruins or caverns, the sort of place where gribblies also hide out and regain their strength and which are harder to attack or get rid of. Drakenhof Castle could have been one of them, if we hadn't gone out of our way to loot it.

The current bottleneck is the storage, which took grey lord's half a year of research to reverse engineer, but which sarvoi seems to understand. So let's say worst case scenario being like ten per turn. Can't say what would best case scenario be. But it's got potential to go up sharply as the barrier of entry drops.
While we can't really guess as to how many Archmages they have overall, I think we can assume that when deploying in Laurelorn, the various heads of the Houses and/or Marrisith will tell however many they have to put asides their differences and work together to iterate the enchantment. Houses Tindomiel, Echtelion and Thyriolan working together would hopefully surpass that initial barrier of entry together more quickly than they would alone.
 
I mean, the towns will definitely be the first priority given the density of people, convenient placement and how they're more easily defended, but there's zero reason not to cover the rest of Sylvania by branching out from those
There's a scarcity of waystones and a lot of places that need them. Covering the towns in Sylvania, then covering the towns in Kislev, then covering etc, before going back and completing the coverage seems better than absolutely draining all the dhar from Sylvania before starting on other places.
 
While we can't really guess as to how many Archmages they have overall, I think we can assume that when deploying in Laurelorn, the various heads of the Houses and/or Marrisith will tell however many they have to put asides their differences and work together to iterate the enchantment. Houses Tindomiel, Echtelion and Thyriolan working together would hopefully surpass that initial barrier of entry together more quickly than they would alone.
For sure. I mostly mean that we have confirmation that Sarvoi, a mostly normal if very bright elf can not only replicate the enchantment, but also streamline it. He was noted to be jotting down a list of improvements while the first waystone was put together. So its probably not limited to Grey Lords anymore, and from there, well, idk. As you said, too soon to make math predictions. We will know when we invest the action.
 
As far as production rates and bottlenecks go, one thing that's been on my mind for a while is pairing our current model with another, different design that uses none of the same parts, and so can be made by an entirely different set of people. I imagine I've probably advocated for it before, if not in so many words?
Honestly yeah now that we've seen ballpark math for the scale of what's needed for even the best case areas (80% existing coverage for laurelorn) I'm way more inclined toward this than I was in the past.
 
The First Waystone(s) has far more symbolic value than practical value. Laurelorn getting them seems perfectly fine.
I still think putting it on the edge of Drakwald bordering Laurelorn/Shadensumpf would be a great symbolic move, basicly representing the whole mutually beneficial/enlightened self interest aspect of the project.

Draining Drakwald (or at least the part of it closest to Laurelorn) of Dhar would mean Eonir won't have a source of beastment and other nasty gribblies right on its borders, while also allowing Empire to exert control over some of its territory that it control on paper but not in practice (which would also help compensate for the lost territory in Laurelorn to many more belligerent Empire higher ups).

EDIT: now that I think about would it be possible to suggest giving a chunk of Northern Drakwald to Nordland as a compensation? It's not like it's actively being used by Middenland currently (and was a different province orginally), so it could be a nice way to give something to Nordland to soothe tension without Middenland actually loosing much of value. Obviuosly Mathilde doesn't have the power to do so but I imagine she has enough influence to be at least listened to if she floats the idea.
 
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It is mentioned throughout the story and canon, that they didn't truly know about it.
Completely untrue. Not only the treaty is actually wrtten down so people can remember it but Elves did remind Nordland just about every generation what was in that treaty and had it enforced, it's just Nordland was delibratly enforcing less than what treaty asked for just so they could keep creeping in.

They beg for forgiveness sign a new treaty and a couple hundred years later it happens again.
Again another completely untrue statement. There has been only one treaty since the start that Nordland was working around by moving slowly and not enforcing the border. Elves kept reminding the borders to Nordland but could not enforce it themselves because Nordland was perfectly fine with starting a war with Eonir over it if they did.

But the orginal border is still the same river it always been and limited logging elves allowed was the loophole Nordland was abusing.
 
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Sooo, we might be a little late, and that's OOC knowledge, but... How likely are we to get the Lizardmen interested in our little project ?
 
Here's the relevant quote:
All of this argument is over 'a fair amount' of symbolic importance? Seems like a really small issue on the bigger picture.

I cannot read minds. I can only reply to what you post. I was explaining what I read and why I said what I did.
I'm not blaming you for not reading my mind, I'm blaming you for critising me, for something you read into my post.
I said that one place was not a stub and for separate reasons next door was a bad idea.
I don't think it takes a lot of effort to recognise that if all the different reasons that apply next door would also apply to the first place, I would think the first place would also be a bad idea.
For all intents and purposes, Laurelorn could have made waystones by itself
You know I'm reminded of when we met Cadaeth for the first time.
then Boris passes on the transcript of the lecture on greenskin magic, which some of our mages found intriguing because, of course, we're not capable of lowering ourselves enough to understand their magics
This feels like the same ego saving measure rather than admit that a human discovered something that they'd never found out.
If Laurelorn could have done it by itself, why hasn't Ulthan done so little to repair the network that feeds magic to their homeland? They've had hundreds of years, superior magical knowledge, access to the existing network, much more money to invest, and plenty of incentive.
 
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Sooo, we might be a little late, and that's OOC knowledge, but... How likely are we to get the Lizardmen interested in our little project ?
No one in the Empire even know the Lizardmen are more than beastmen living in the ruins of a greater civilization they destroyed, so Mathilde isn't going to make the first move. And given how insular they are, it's unlikely the Slaans will accept to work with warmbloods even if they noticed what we did. Unlike Ulthuan they're not hooked up in the final destination of the the network's energy.

All of this argument is over 'a fair amount' of symbolic importance? Seems like a really small issue on the bigger picture.
On the contrary, it seems pretty big. It's not like delaying the deployment to Kislev by 6 months will hurt it much, while not doing it in Laurelorn first would sting their pride.
 
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Oh it can, there is no doubt about it, but the Empire is supposed to move if not in lockstep at least in the same general direction. Because Nordland is on the receiving end of much of the worse deals as they lost land for nothing, Middenhiem has new allies and valuable trade. Something they can't participate in because of their pride. There is a very real threat, (even if it is never carried out) that they would secede from the Empire over this, something they cannot allow with it being their northern front and base of the 2nd fleet. It would look bad to even the Elector counts in favor of the Eonir to support them killing and suppressing there fellow man at the behest of Elves. To wit, they need to be appeased, if for no other reason then it sets a bad precedent of "Yes the Empire will carve out some of your province for it's allies, suck it up."
It is mentioned throughout the story and canon, that they didn't truly know about it. 2000 years is a long time for a human, Panoramia mentioned they didn't even realize what they were doing, every couple generations there is a turnover of power, Usually to different family or group that didn't have the treaty as Elves view houses and nations as the same thing (not exactly true but close enough for the purpose of this argument) They beg for forgiveness sign a new treaty and a couple hundred years later it happens again. As far as modern Nordland knew the land they were on had been ceded by past treaties. She says it far more eloquently than me but that is the jist of it. To them it is a sudden and powerful reversal of what they knew, and suddenly humans were helping the elves? It was a whirlwind of events that seemed sudden and confusing to humans, and a series of broken promises and human lies to the elves. Both perspectives see part of the whole, equally true and valid to their minds, it's simply not a scale humans think on that the Eonir are acting on.

Boney's covered the situation in depth at this point:
"They're only exceeding their logging quotas by a little bit, and it was probably an accident, and starting to murder people would put the entire agreement in jeopardy. We've told the Grand Baron what's happened and he's said he'll look into it."

And then for a couple of years Nordland stays within the limits, and then they exceed them a little more, and then Laurelorn complain and it stops for a shorter time, and then they exceed it again and by then it's the new status quo and the Eonir decide, well, this isn't that big a deal, we're not endangered by such a small breach of the agreement, it wouldn't be right to start killing people now. Then it goes even further, and wow, if we start killing people who cross the established line, that would be a lot of people at this stage, and that would probably mean war with Nordland, and we're not sure we could win war with Nordland and we're sure we can't win war with the entire Empire, and they complain to the current Grand Baron and he looks into it and finds out that three villages, two towns, and a quarter of his capital's economy are dependent on breaching that treaty and have been since the time of his grandfather, so he says reassuring things to Laurelorn without actually changing anything.

After eight hundred years of this, a holy place on the wrong side of the river became a shrine became a temple became a whole village and the lumberjacks from it are forty miles from Tor Lithanel.
They are using diplomatic channels. They signed a treaty with Nordland that explicitly restricted Nordlander settlement to specific areas in limited numbers. Then when Nordland failed to abide by that treaty, they made a partnership with Middenland to enforce it. This is not blades out. You'd know it if it was. The last time Laurelorn went blades out, a province stopped existing.
Because the Middenlanders getting involved meant they couldn't dictate the narrative, and Nordlanders were the ones that decided to breach their treaty with Laurelorn and start settling on land that they weren't supposed to settle on in the first place. The Elector Counts might be iffy about Elves but they have very strong opinions about whether treaties should be stuck to and borders should be respected.

The long and short of it is thus:
  • Nordland absolutely did know what it was doing when it violated the treaty, at least at the later stages. Originally when some village crossed over and chopped more trees than they were allowed or set up some kind of shrine it could be an accident. But the Grand Baron was in fact told about these concerns every time, and it never stopped, and by the time whole cities were being built on Eonir territory and they were chopping their way to Tor Lithanel it's pretty impossible to argue ignorance.
  • The original treaty still stands. There has never been a renegotiation defining new borders or allowing new quotas for resource extraction. There could potentially be a renegotiation, but that would require Nordland to acknowledge that there's a problem to begin with, which they have been pointedly refusing to do.
    • And also to renegotiate Nordland would have to actually offer something to the Eonir in return, which well, up until Middenland stepped in Nordland had no reason to do that. Why cut a new deal with the guy you've got over the barrel when you can just get away with ignoring the old one and screwing him over?
  • The Empire is backing Middenland and Laurelorn on this one. Things probably would have been different if Middenland wasn't involved and Nordland got to dictate the narrative, but they didn't, and now all the other provinces can see that Nordland undeniably and egregiously violated a border treaty. Fact of the matter is that Nordland fucked up, badly.
    • So long as Middenland is involved this is a province vs province matter, and none of the other provinces are going to side with Nordland if it means establishing a precedent that borders between provinces can be ignored at an Elector's convenience. That's some Three Emperors nonsense.
    • The precedent being set is not "The Empire will carve up your land for its allies". Because Nordland literally, according to the formal document that they themselves signed, do not own the land West of the River Salz. It's not their land, it's Laurelorn's, and they signed a document acknowledging that. Laurelorn did not take land away from Nordland, Laurelorn took back the land that Nordland stole from them without casus belli.
So uh, yeah.
Sucks to be Nordland I guess but they kinda just took the lumps that they had coming to them.

Now, as for where that leaves them.
Diplomacy was, and remains, an option. Laurelorn was willing to talk back then, and the fact that they've left the coastal towns and cities that Nordland's built on Laurelorn soil intact is a sign that they're still willing to talk now. That's more on Nordland to actually come to the negotiation table than anyone else though, especially given their position is only weakening as time goes by.
(Nordland used to have the only easy trade route out of Laurelorn, but now that the Rite of Way highway is being built to Middenland that's no longer the case)

Nordland also isn't in as dire straits as you think.
It has been over 15 in universe years (I stopped keeping precise count) since Nordland lost access to most of Laurelorn. They are poorer than they used to be, but If there was going to be extreme economic and political fallout then it almost certainly would have already happened.
They didn't lose 2/3rds of their province, their maps like to claim all of that was theirs but in reality even when they were shamelessly violating the treaty they didn't occupy even half of all that territory.

Mathilde's contribution to stabilizing the situation has been to help normalize relations between Laurelorn and the Empire. If Nordland is smart, they'll stop trying to pick a fight they've already lost and start seeking a more amicable compromise with Laurelorn.
If they don't well, hard to save a man who insists on drowning himself.
 
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So uh, yeah.
Sucks to be Nordland I guess but they kinda just took the lumps that they had coming to them.
More to point there is Forest of Shadows right there if they want to keep logging. They are just being lazy by going to Laurelorn forest instead of FoS since latter has gribblies in it so mugging Eonir is eaiser.

But mugging is still a crime so yeah, fuck those guys.

Hell I think we should take a hard look at the sheningans that Nordland is getting up to with their religious push trying to undermine Ar-ulric.
 
Hell I think we should take a hard look at the sheningans that Nordland is getting up to with their religious push trying to undermine Ar-ulric.
Trying to get the Cult of Ulric to be less Teutogen-supremacist and less patriarchal isn't exactly a negative thing.

It's not a particularly new thing either, Nordland is home to the only all-female Ulrican Temple in the Empire. Also the main location of 'Rhya without Taal' worship, though most of that group are probably now either dead or in Ulrikadrin or K8P.
 
More to point there is Forest of Shadows right there if they want to keep logging. They are just being lazy by going to Laurelorn forest instead of FoS since latter has gribblies in it so mugging Eonir is eaiser.
There was also the bonus point of some trees having lodes of precious metals right underneath so granted, its not really as lucrative, but i still think Nordland really deserves the L on this one.
 
So a thing about human nature is that when someone is presented with a big complicated issue, they early on ask themselves, consciously or unconsciously, what happens if I just do nothing? This is big and complicated and doing things is hard and not doing this is easy, is not doing things an option? With the unspoken assumption that everyone else will be doing nothing too. And if the answer to that can be spun in a palatable way, then you're a lot more likely to get people finding a way to justify doing nothing.

With the Nordland situation, the answer to that for the movers and shakers of the Empire was 'a province of the Empire gets richer and larger at the expense of some weird isolationist Elves'. Sure, some people will consider the moral question of whether Nordland is in the right to do that, but the world is full of injustices and there's not enough time or resources to address them all and when it comes time to choose between fighting an injustice that is harming you and fighting an injustice that indirectly benefits you...

Laurelorn reframed the situation when it came to an agreement with Middenland. It hasn't been outright said in the story because everyone's saving face about it, but their ego took a beating to make it happen. They demoted an Elven Goddess to put a human one on the Pantheonic mandala! Here, buddy, take a huff of this copium about how Ulric is totally Asuryan in a funny hat. But they did it because it was the cost to survive, and it reframed the issue for the other provinces. For Middenland, the path of least resistance is 'we get a new ally and prestige and get a few kicks in on those schismatic bastards in Nordland'. For Ostland, it's 'maybe those buggers will actually focus on keeping the Forest of Shadows under control now'. For everyone else, it's 'Nordland takes a fat L, but the Empire overall is about as well off for having a new ally as it is worse off for Nordland being weakened'. It's hard to get too upset about that. The fact that you can frame it as doing a justice for the rule of law is certainly a nice bonus, but the answer to 'what if I do nothing?' has bone-deep power that cannot be overlooked.

Nordland being weakened isn't great, but it's very much not the end of the world. There's already two Runefangs gathering dust in a vault in Altdorf. The Empire survived Waaagh Ironclaw in the 1700s and the you-know-what of the 1100s. If Nordland absolutely refuses to adapt, then nobody outside of Nordland is going to shed too many tears about Middenland and Ostland becoming neighbours.
 
I do want to say that I really like the way Boney handled this huge mess. IRL, when polities go through this amount of willful blindness and then get smacked on the hand or in the face by another polity, those who suffer most are always the common people. Those people who often had no idea they were doing the wrong thing, but were on the receiving end of most of the consequences. (Especially the painful ones)

I don't know if there was a roll or not, but I am really happy Boney somehow determined that the bonds holding the Winter Wolves to their desire to not massacre people were stronger than their bonds to the priesthood of Ulric.

The reclamation of KAU is also really grateful for this. :)
 
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Well, if we want to soothe the blow for Nordland, perhaps we can steal an idea from DoDA and negotiate access to the mines for them? The ones which have an Incarnate of Chamon in new lore?
 
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