Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The Grand Theogonist picked it up so quickly.
The grand theogonist had access to Vlad's unredacted notes for several decades. I'd hardly call that quick. Specifically, they gained access to Vlad's notes in 2051 and used them to cast the second secret in 2132, nearly 80 years after they gained access

(Not like, the specific grand theogonist had them for 80 years, but the church did)
 
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Ok, that makes sense. There is already an army just waiting for anyone sufficiently competent to gather and unify the parts of it.

Thus, writing a Dhar insight book would be little different from just letting it be known that we have and have read the full unabridged Liber Mortis, right?

I feel like the inherent risk of any 'Dhar insight book' is in either:

1. Inadvertently writing a proverbial necromancy cookbook for people who can look at it and reverse engineer

2. Putting down anti-necromancer techniques on paper for some necromancer to acquire and use to create anti-anti-necromancy techniques

3. Combination of both

For those reasons, most anti-Dhar, anti-necromancy stuff is probably done person to person for that reason and strictly for those who have a need to know.
 
Thus, writing a Dhar insight book would be little different from just letting it be known that we have and have read the full unabridged Liber Mortis, right?
For Mathilde's reputation, the Liber Mortis would do more immediate damage because people already know and fear it. Other wizards would recognize how dangerous Mathilde's knowledge is once they read her hypothetical book, but it wouldn't have the name recognition
 
The grand theogonist had access to Vlad's unredacted notes for several decades. I'd hardly call that quick. Specifically, they gained access to Vlad's notes in 2051 and used them to cast the second secret in 2132, nearly 80 years after they gained access

(Not like, the specific grand theogonist had them for 80 years, but the church did)
I mean yes. But the GT canonically brought the book with him and was reading from it. Which is not a great indicator of much study prior to that moment.

EDIT: Also the Cult had the book for nearly a millennium. It's Frederick's diary after all, not Vlad's.
 
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I think a properly written Liber Morthilde, with a focus on being more helpful for countering Dhar than casting it, would be a fine thing. The reputational hit would be fairly negligible if released post mortem, down to "well, at least she clearly didn't do anything with it."

I also think that it's not really worth the time to write a book that won't see use for, hopefully, decades. We have other worthy uses of our time.
 
I feel like the inherent risk of any 'Dhar insight book' is in either:

1. Inadvertently writing a proverbial necromancy cookbook for people who can look at it and reverse engineer

2. Putting down anti-necromancer techniques on paper for some necromancer to acquire and use to create anti-anti-necromancy techniques

3. Combination of both

For those reasons, most anti-Dhar, anti-necromancy stuff is probably done person to person for that reason and strictly for those who have a need to know.
While I'm not necesarily for the idea of a Liber Morthilde, I feel the need to point out that the same could be said of Waagh and peace (Orcs, can read after all), Winning the war Beneath and basically every other piece of knowledge we've passed to the Colleges and written down about our enemies

Just because we write something down doesn't mean all our enemies halfway across the world suddenly know it, it doesn not even mean Tzeentch Chaos knows it, operating under the assumption that "anything we write down will certainly be used against us" is one of the main reasons the Dwarves lost all their knowledge. Like that book, if published wouldn't just be in the library for anyone to pick up, it'd be restricted to the most loyal Magisters and L.M. maybe even restricted to the Patriarch/Matriarch only not the sort of thing any perpetual can get their hands on.
 
I mean yes. But the GT canonically brought the book with him and was reading from it. Which is not a great indicator of much study prior to that moment.

EDIT: Also the Cult had the book for nearly a millennium. It's Frederick's diary after all, not Vlad's.
It was mentioned that it was the notes of Vlad Von Carstein that the grand theogonist used to lay Mandred low.

And I'm not saying that the man himself had studied the book in depth before this, but the organization almost certainly knew where to look in the book for the anti army effects. It took us weeks to read through the book, did it not?
 
Ok, that makes sense. There is already an army just waiting for anyone sufficiently competent to gather and unify the parts of it.

Thus, writing a Dhar insight book would be little different from just letting it be known that we have and have read the full unabridged Liber Mortis, right?
It's not quite as bad as the Liber Mortis, because knowing Dhar alone doesn't tell you how to raise up an army on demand, but it would be a pretty good reason for any would-be Black Magister or sorcerer that knows it to be bumped up to 'high priority death' levels of threat. Mathilde wielding Dhar would be doing so with a +49 - it's part of the reason why every so often we look at her and say she'd be a great Dark Lady.

It's also why the discussion specifically started with whether we could distill it down to 'just' the +10 to studying or countering Dhar-based magics - it'd be way less suspicious or capable of causing harm in the event of a Black Magister getting their hands on it.

Just because we write something down doesn't mean all our enemies halfway across the world suddenly know it, it doesn not even mean Tzeentch Chaos knows it, operating under the assumption that "anything we write down will certainly be used against us" is one of the main reasons the Dwarves lost all their knowledge. Like that book, if published wouldn't just be in the library for anyone to pick up, it'd be restricted to the most loyal Magisters and L.M. maybe even restricted to the Patriarch/Matriarch only not the sort of thing any perpetual can get their hands on.
When Mathilde was researching murder rituals during the Alberich incident, she noted to herself that the Grey Order's librarian for things like that is not only extremely vetted but also cannot leave the Grey College. For something like this, it's possible that even LMs or the Patriarch wouldn't be able to fully read it, just given specific pages or paragraphs for when they wish to try to come up with countermeasures to Dhar magics.

Personally, I feel like the discussion is running out of juice. While it's a possible book to write, I feel like the benefits do not outweight the damage it could do to Mathilde's rep, and to begin with it'd be a very fine needle to thread when writing it - it's possible for it to essentially be one or two 'wasted' Serenity actions.

...:V That's one or two turns' worth of writing a romance novel, which I think has a lot more worth than knowing how to wield Dhar.
 
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EDIT: Also the Cult had the book for nearly a millennium. It's Frederick's diary after all, not Vlad's.
Aa far as I'm aware, Mathilde has Frederick's copy by way of the Van Hal bloodline, while the Cult of Sigmar, after killing Vlad, picked up a copy that he was using. These represent the only two known 'fully intact' copies of the book, compared to the butchered copies that have found their way into the hands of countless lesser Necromancers.
 
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It was mentioned that it was the notes of Vlad Von Carstein that the grand theogonist used to lay Mandred low.

And I'm not saying that the man himself had studied the book in depth before this, but the organization almost certainly knew where to look in the book for the anti army effects. It took us weeks to read through the book, did it not?
They had some time to look through the book before Manfred's army arrived, considering he;d been in several prior battles and villagers had been fleeing before him.

It's called out as the Liber Mortis, not Vlad's work:
Article:
Then the Grand Theogonist, Kurt III, appeared on the battlements. The Sigmarite high priest had brought forth the evil Liber Mortis from the deepest locked vaults of his temple, and he began to recite the Great Spell of Unbinding from its pages.
Source: Vampire Counts 8e, 7e, 6e, 5e


Aa far as I'm aware, Mathilde has Frederick's copy by way of the Van Hal bloodline, while the Cult of Sigmar, after killing Vlad, picked up a copy that he was using. These represent the only two known 'fully intact' copies of the book, compared to the butchered copies that have found their way into the hands of countless lesser Necromancers.
Why would Vlad need a copy? He was there when it was being written, and he learned Necromancy from Neferata and Nagash. It doesn't really matter though, because either way, it's not Vlad's notes that were used, it'd still be a copy of Frederick's diary.
 
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A Personal Response to Vlad Von Carstien and Frederick van Hal, L.M. Webber, Grey. Posthumous.

Commentary on a Personal Response, E.C. Roswita van Hal, Stirland.

An Extremely Personal Response: Yes I'm Taking the Time to Write This AND Get It Published, You Insufferable Toy-Stealing Halfwit, Emperor* Vlad Von Carstein, V Patriarch.
 
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I also think that it's not really worth the time to write a book that won't see use for, hopefully, decades. We have other worthy uses of our time.
Also, there's a chance Mathilde gets further insights down the road. Writing the book now would then necessitate rewriting it later. Why not wait a decade or two to see if she picks up anything more than she did in the last two decades?
 
A Personal Response to Vlad Von Carstien and Frederick van Hal, L.M. Webber, Grey. Posthumous.

Commentary on a Personal Response, E.C. Roswita van Hal, Stirland.

An Extremely Personal Response: Yes I'm Taking the Time to Write This AND Get It Published, You Insufferable Toy-Stealing Halfwit, Emperor* Vlad Von Carstein, V Patriarch.
How I Destroyed a Very Laughable Castle and then Looted its Ruins, L.M. Weber, Grey. Posthumous*.
How to Cleanse an Entire Province's Worth of Dark Magic, L.M. Weber, Grey. Posthumous*.


*Written after An Extremely Personal Response.
 
I think that actually using the Second Secret would require rolls, which Dhar Insight would help with. Surely if you're trying to weaponize the way Dhar structures explode it'd be useful to have a better understanding of how Dhar travels ? Surely if you're trying to break someone else's spells in a very specific way it'd help to have insight into how his magic behaves ?
Literally a person with no training at all in wind magic was able to use the second secret after maybe a day of reading.
I didn't say anything about mass teaching it ?
Indeed, in my previous posts I said things like "a trusted Lord Magister could learn this". I view this as being like the Liber Mortis : potentially very useful in a crisis, but even then you'd only give it to your most trusted expert.
Again, that's not who gets the liber mortis. You give the Liber Mortis to someone without magic training on purpose. More, we don't want them to be good at casting. We want them to be as bad as possible at wind casting, lest they go bad. That's why the Theoginist casting is a good idea.

Quite bluntly, there's no benefit here. It's putting a gun emplacement on the nuclear sub: completely irrelevant for its actual usecase.
The grand theogonist had access to Vlad's unredacted notes for several decades. I'd hardly call that quick. Specifically, they gained access to Vlad's notes in 2051 and used them to cast the second secret in 2132, nearly 80 years after they gained access

(Not like, the specific grand theogonist had them for 80 years, but the church did)
Had access is not the same as read. The Grand Theoginist is not reading restricted books all the time, or we'd have bigger problems.
And I'm not saying that the man himself had studied the book in depth before this, but the organization almost certainly knew where to look in the book for the anti army effects. It took us weeks to read through the book, did it not?
It took us a year or more to slowly go through the entire book and understand it, while being as safe as possible with a potential memetic hazard. That's different than "I need the one spell from this book, oh, it's bookmarked from the last guy who needed it."

There are a million better things to do than this, including nothing.
 
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Literally a person with no training at all in wind magic was able to use the second secret after maybe a day of reading.
That person "with no training at all" was the Grand Theogonist of his time, wasn't he ? He was an expert in Divine magic. Someone of his station must have already been very good at channeling/wielding his god's miracles - the Liber Mortis just told him where to aim.

That's entirely compatible with my assumption that doing this will require you to actually roll some dice. In which case "I'm better at understanding and dismantling Dhar spells" is a useful extra boon to have, because the Second Secret isn't an automatic "necromancy-b-gone" magic wand. It's a book telling you how necromancy works and where to hit it for maximum damage.
 
He was an expert in Divine magic.
Divine Magic is not wind magic. That's why I specified wind.
That's entirely compatible with my assumption that doing this will require you to actually roll some dice. In which case "I'm better at understanding and dismantling Dhar spells" is a useful extra boon to have, because the Second Secret isn't an automatic "necromancy-b-gone" magic wand. It's a book telling you how necromancy works and where to hit it for maximum damage.
Have you read the when we discovered the second secret? It literally is an automatic "Dhar-explode, and explode nearby dhar".

Again, this isn't a manual for a nuke. This is a gun emplacement that's pretty disconnected from the nuke. More, a gun emplacement we don't want people to have if they have the nuke.
 
While I'm not necesarily for the idea of a Liber Morthilde, I feel the need to point out that the same could be said of Waagh and peace (Orcs, can read after all), Winning the war Beneath and basically every other piece of knowledge we've passed to the Colleges and written down about our enemies
I think there's an important qualitative difference: no graduates of the Imperial colleges of magic have become Orc Shamans or Skaven Sorcerers, while at least a few have become Necromancers.
 
I'm tired of the Dhar conversation, so let's talk turn plans instead because that won't cause an argument or anything.

Based on thread vibes, I get the feeling there's going to be four or five differing plans:
  • Elfcation with Protector
  • Elfcation with Father
  • Old World adventures with Protector
  • Old World adventures with Father
  • WEB-MAT research
Elfcation is fairly simple—we plant a waystone, drop off the Orbs, and then flee to Ulthuan before Algard can nail our feet to the floorboards. Protector Vs Father is mostly about what impression we want to make on the elves.

Old World Adventures is also simple—we plant a waystone, and then we hit 3 or 4 hotspots, eliminate any monsters hiding there, and then use the payment and the fame to advance the waystone project. Protector would probably be mostly within the Empire, whilst Father would be used in Bretonnia to test the Lady theory. Possible hotspots include nexuses, Sylvania, troll country, Reikland, the iron orcs, and that tomb king barrow we just flind out about.

WEB-MAT research is about picking up new research chains—apparitions, windherding, Nehekara etc. More of a sedated turn compared to the adventure focused turns, but begins setting up some cool pay offs later down the line.

I'd be happy with any of these, to be honest. They all sound interesting. What are people's thoughts? Have I missed any thing obvious?
 
I'd be happy with any of these, to be honest. They all sound interesting. What are people's thoughts? Have I missed any thing obvious?
I'd say "Elfcation with Father" is an actually pretty fringe position and that Elfcation with any of the other faces of the Coin have more support.

As for myself, mark me down for Old World adventures with the Father. An Overwork turn is the best time to both do Father-related things while simultaneously keeping all Project members doing important things and still having some time for miscellaneous personal things.

I'm not sure a WEB-MAT plan is on the cards but that might just be me - certainly, I can think of a bunch of things to do with them.
 
Elfcation.

Largely because we really should see Ulithan, both to level set what sorts of things the high end of magic that isn't horribly corruptive can do, and how, as well as getting a sense of how to navigate socially with the average asur. With Teclis in play and the colleges a topic of discussion for nobles, for reasons of waystones, slipping in the back door and getting some grounding before attention gets focused on US, PERSONALLY seems like a good idea.

Plus, more of the world. Plus, Eike on boats, and arrogance getting upstaged, and foes that are dangerous enough to push us higher.

I'm hoping for votes like the ones we got when Belegar's army was matching south, and we really bonded with the dwarves.
 
I totally want Elfcation. I want eeeeelves, especially the elves we haven't seen much of yet. Mathilde hasn't even been to Ulthuan yet! That feels like something dearly missing for a major xeno-diplomat. (And also of course Lothern and Eike and boats and curios and...)
 
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