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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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AsuraAtlas said:
3. Thyrus is visibly Indic and he's marveling at how not racist Mathilde is. Like how in the first 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea book it was an intentional mystery what nationality Nemo was, so every character guesses where he's from, mostly guessing European countries. And when subsequent materiel revealed he was visibly Indian the whole time, all those guessers accidentally look like the most PC 1800's book characters ever.
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Jules Verne originally wrote the draft with Nemo as Polish, primarily getting vengeance on Russian ships, but the publisher for 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea asked Verne to remove this for concerns about international diplomacy and the risk of getting his entire scifi collection banned from the Russian market. So Nemo is unspecified there because of RL meddling. There's still a bunch of secondary traces that Verne didn't expunge, like the guesses you mention, and the portrait of the Polish Thaddeus Kosciuszko being the first of the freedom fighters on Nemo's wall, hanging next to people like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, with no Indians mentioned there.

The Mysterious Island was part reveal, part retcon. The timeline doesn't match up. Leagues happens in 1866-68 and Nemo is out on adventure with an active crew; Island happens in 1865-67 and Dakkar has been stuck there for many years and he's come there after being at sea long enough that his crew has died off.

Verne handwaves this by saying the "real" dates have been classified to avoid leaking military information.
 
Boney said:
You've seen history being made a number of times now, and it happening in quiet little meetings always seems somehow wrong to you.
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That's very often the case, yes.

MrHobbit said:
It's a reference to Karitamen, a Tomb King whose reawakening is detailed in Lure of the Liche Lord. There are some Nehekharan wards on his tomb that prevent him from leaving. Karitamen ruled over the Border Princes in life and wants to do so again in undeath. Said rule would be rather paternalistic.
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That sounds pretty cool actually, he could stabilise long-term the Border Princes.

QuietlyObserving said:
This Tomb King has some personality.
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Yeah, Tomb Kings may be Bronze Age autocrats but they're still humans, with the whole spectrum of morality that comes with it.

adaer said:
After all, having a permanent and stable leader there would be pretty tempting for the dwarves, and I doubt he'd be high on the Empire's to do list despite being an openly undead king.
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Yeah, like Sangster but on a larger scale.

The Lone badger said:
IIRC one of the displays in his tomb is a bunch of (taxidermied) shaved dwarves. Peace was never an option.
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I'm sure we can ask him to redecorate :V
 
I didn't know before this chapter that there's a place in Warhammer Fantasy straight up called Monte Negro.

Does that make Montenegro the real life country with the most direct reference inside WF?
 
AsuraAtlas said:
...Looking back on it, I knew that historical societies were like that. Like, that was a fact I knew. I guess after decades of media depicting ancient and fantasy Europe as looking like the palest parts of the dairy aisle I had some internal bias. This is why representation and diversity in media is so important, and I really appreciate how consistently you've upheld it in your own work, Boney.
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Man, you should see the faces I see at work when I explain to visitors that, yes, paleolithic western europeans actually tended to have swarthy phenotypes.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
This is my read. Gormann specifically is very enthusiastic about the idea and was always gonna aim for that, but the Brights as a whole might have balked somewhat if we didn't put our weight on the scale.
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If Mandred becomes Emperor, or to a lesser extent if he's a 'mere' Elector-Count, then every other scion of nobility that ends up in the Bright College is going to want to study Indic magic too. Nothing starts a fashion like royalty. We may have changed the path of the Bright College permanently.
 
Miscellaneous thoughts...
Boney said:
Sharing what you've learned with Barak Varr's chancellery gets you their full cooperation in the matter - at least, once you've talked them down from their initial impulse to clap her in chains and send her back to Monte Negro with a very stern demand for an explanation - and you begin to weave a trap.
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This is a delightfully Mathildean expression, so much so that I'm not sure Boney has used it before. I'm sure I've read him speak of spells being woven, but this one feels somehow new.

Boney said:
Gretel nods. "You've encountered this person before?"

"The Vampire Hunter? I'd never heard of her before all this."

"Her organization, then?"

"Never come across them." You think for a moment. "Well, I think they might have had someone at a conference I went to."
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... Right, the conference with Roswita showing off her book. Took me a second to remember that.

Heavygenium said:
I didn't know before this chapter that there's a place in Warhammer Fantasy straight up called Monte Negro.

Does that make Montenegro the real life country with the most direct reference inside WF?
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Not necessarily. Monte Negro literally translates to Black Mountain in Spanish (Monte specifically meaning a small mountain - bigger than a hill but not considered a big mountain). As far as descriptive names for locations go, it's not so unusual. It may have been intentional, or maybe not.
 
Man, it's always nice to remember that Mathilde is a genuine genius, and not just in pure academics. Her Intrigue and Diplomacy probably helped with that whole process of deciphering the Hunter's motives and allegiances.

Though I have to say, I do feel kind of sorry for the woman. Moving to arrest a Journey Woman Amethyst is one thing, but suddenly having a Grey Wizard, let alone a Magister Lord and especially Mathilde fucking Weber—who has quite the reputation, even if she wasn't immediately recognizable—not just pop out of the woodwork, but also have apparently subverted the mercenaries you just hired? Fucking terrifying. She lost the game before she even knew it was being played.

As for Gormann, I wouldn't be surprised if he assumes Mathilde actually knows he's Indic, and is just being the usual cryptic Grey Wizard while making her request and knowing how he's likely to respond. Purposefully giving him his excuse to teach the paradigm while remaining as hands off and "reasonable" in their request as possible.
 
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TBH even from a perspective of "Gormann was always going to want to do that" it is very reasonable for Mathilde to ask, because it literally wasn't part of his pitch. If it's not part of his pitch, how is anyone else supposed to know he is in fact going to want to do that.

"I learned about this capability even existing from a bunch of books I got from the elementalists" also serves to emphasize that point.
 
Parabola said:
Not necessarily. Monte Negro literally translates to Black Mountain in Spanish (Monte specifically meaning a small mountain - bigger than a hill but not considered a big mountain). As far as descriptive names for locations go, it's not so unusual. It may have been intentional, or maybe not.
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Yes, but also no. Explanation to follow, because my spanish language nerd has been roused.

Monte vs montaña is kind of one of those fuzzy things, because they both come from the same root and the specific nuance is very context sensitive.

Some people use monte specifically to refer to mountainous areas that are covered with vegetation, while el monte in the singular is usually how you refer to a specific peak, but not always because gendered languages can be funny like that.

Meanwhile, the singular la montaña can refer to a singular mountain, but also generally mountainous terrain and some other stuff.

Generally, translating monte as mount and montaña as mountain tends to work best, although I am sure there are exceptions that I am failing to remember.
 
Also, even if Gormann is actually Indic and knowing about the Indic paradigm and ready to teach it to Mandred - him being Bright College representative in this council doesn't mean he would be decisive on Mandred's education. After all, if we voted for Mandred to join the Grey College, Mathilde likely wouldn't.
 
That was a good day to be Thyrus Gormann.

Amethysts: "If the prince is to be a warrior, he should wage war against deadly threats to the Empire."
Gormann: "Reasonable."
Greys: "If the prince is to wield fire, you should teach him your thing."
Gormann: "Who am I to deny your wisdom."
:V
 
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MkZ said:
Also, even if Gormann is actually Indic and knowing about the Indic paradigm and ready to teach it to Mandred - him being Bright College representative in this council doesn't mean he would be decisive on Mandred's education. After all, if we voted for Mandred to join the Grey College, Mathilde likely wouldn't.
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I'd say Mathilde would have a good shot of being instrumental in his education if he were a Grey, though not because she was in this room, because she is his secret godmother and the Empress' co-conspirator in Ranald-worship.
 
DragonParadox said:
I'd say Mathilde would have a good shot of being instrumental in his education if he were a Grey, though not because she was in this room, because she is his secret godmother and the Empress' co-conspirator in Ranald-worship.
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Also known to be the empresses very good friend, and possibly lover.
Mathilde has publicly know reasons to have very good access to the young prince.
AsuraAtlas said:
Yeah, realistically I think it's almost certainly number two. But I do think that a large part of his amusement stems from the fact that the mysterious Grey Lady Magister so obviously doesn't know his deal, and the subsequent shattering of her "careful, all knowing politics" mystique.

It isn't every day you hold the information advantage over an Ulgu LM. Even to a Wizard as storied as Thyrus, it must seem like Two-Gifts day.
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It is never safe to assume that a Grey Magister, let alone a Lady Magister, does not have an information advantage on you, even, especially, when they seem completely clueless.
Pretending not to know shit is a time honored tradition in diplomatic and/or spy circles. Even, especially, when everyone knows you know.

For all he knew, the mysterious Grey Lady Magister was completely aware of his deal, but wanted to give him ammo for Bright Order politics to make sure he can get Mandred educated on Indic stuff with minimal problems.
 
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Boney said:
Lord Magister Thyrus Gormann
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Now that I actually think about that name, I seem to recall that he was known in canon as a genius politician, where everyone was constantly surprised that a Bright Order Lord Magister could be *such* a genius politician, and was part of the 'actually the Bright Order isn't just dumb artillery' thing.

Like, a really incredible choice for Mandred actually.
 
flaviusb said:
Now that I actually think about that name, I seem to recall that he was known in canon as a genius politician, where everyone was constantly surprised that a Bright Order Lord Magister could be *such* a genius politician, and was part of the 'actually the Bright Order isn't just dumb artillery' thing.

Like, a really incredible choice for Mandred actually.
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I was under the impression that he was wildly unpopular for going into rages and sleeping with peoples wives, and the only reason he remained a politician at all was that he was friends with the Emperor. His character was one of the reasons I was hesitant about the Bright college, as his eccentricity was explicitly called out as a consequence of his wind in the blurbs people posted.

(Difficult rulers convinced me it wasn't unworkable.)

EDIT:
The Wiki said:
Long-term exposure to the harsh Wind of Magic Aqshy has left its mark on Thyrus' psyche. For all his extensive learning and vast wisdom, he is a famously difficult and intemperate man. He is given to dark moods and flashes of violent rage.[5a]​
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AsuraAtlas said:
I was under the impression that he was wildly unpopular for going into rages and sleeping with peoples wives, and the only reason he remained a politician at all was that he was friends with the Emperor. His character was one of the reasons I was hesitant about the Bright college, as his eccentricity was explicitly called out as a consequence of his wind in the blurbs people posted.
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I think you're combining him with the elector count of averland.
 
AsuraAtlas said:
I was under the impression that he was wildly unpopular for going into rages and sleeping with peoples wives, and the only reason he remained a politician at all was that he was friends with the Emperor. His character was one of the reasons I was hesitant about the Bright college, as his eccentricity was explicitly called out as a consequence of his wind in the blurbs people posted.

(Difficult rulers convinced me it wasn't unworkable.)
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Per the wiki this is, like, half true? There's nothing about him sleeping with people's wives but, while he's mentioned as a personal friend of the Emperor and a legitimately brilliant scholar and general, it also notes him as extremely temperamental and prone to rages and diplomatic incidents. That said, that's pretty explicitly due to Aqshy effecting his personality...which is to say he's very likely got the bad temper Arcane Mark. Maybe both of them.

The current iteration we just met and talked to might be how he is absent that Mark, since this is earlier in the timeline (which is now divergent).
 
Ericwinter said:
Though I have to say, I do feel kind of sorry for the woman. Moving to arrest a Journey Woman Amethyst is one thing, but suddenly having a Grey Wizard, let alone a Magister Lord and especially Mathilde fucking Weber—who has quite the reputation, even if she wasn't immediately recognizable—not just pop out of the woodwork, but also have apparently subverted the mercenaries you just hired? Fucking terrifying. She lost the game before she even knew it was being played.
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It'd be like a high-ranking KGB officer showing up in the middle of a meeting and asking why someone is attempting to cause issues for their operative. I reckon this hunter is going to be looking over her shoulder for more than just vampires for quite a time.
 
AsuraAtlas said:
I was under the impression that he was wildly unpopular for going into rages and sleeping with peoples wives, and the only reason he remained a politician at all was that he was friends with the Emperor.
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Yeah, it was a later/other explanation of the character, where he was able to achieve his political and personal aims due to being able to play people's passions, and keep people off guard with his volatility disrupting their attempts to manipulate him, but still draw people to him with charisma so he didn't alienate people. Rather than the earlier 'he was volatile but had one powerful friend so no one could do anything about him'.

Edit: as the earlier take was from the 'Bright Order are just dumb artillery' phase.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
The current iteration we just met and talked to might be how he is absent that Mark, since this is earlier in the timeline (which is now divergent).
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Fingers crossed, lol. I already edited the wiki blurb into my post, but it wasn't what I was thinking of. I definitely remember people talking about him being unpopular (and frisky) but if it exists it's not on the wiki.
 
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AsuraAtlas said:
Crossed fingers, lol. I already edited the wiki blurb into my post, but it wasn't what I was thinking of. I definitely remember people talking about him being unpopular (and frisky) but if it exists it's not on the wiki.
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That's definitely Leifdorf who we were talking about, the almost certainly mad elector count of overland who likes to sleep with people's wife's and is friends with Karl franz
 
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