Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
Tobtorp said:
The problem is that if the apparitions use comes out and a academic goes "but it isn't a daemon because a spell of the orders says so." The people in power will rightfully point out that the orders of magic have hidden that they use apparitions at all and are therefore no longer trustworthy as a source of their own innocence.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The people in the power also accepts Djinn of Araby. So I think you are overblowing the problem. It is not that apparations inheretely bad, it is that they do look bad.

Edit: There is also Elementals over there in the Nuln. So clearly People in the Power don't care.
 
Last edited:
Valmond said:
Problem for me is that 3 months is way too long for sight seeing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So give her any of the sorts of relevant tasks/exercises for a fledgling Grey Wizard trade specialist that she could do in a major trade port.

Ask her to write up and categorize the kinds of ships she sees pull in, their origins, and their cargo, and analyze what that means about Ulthuan's trade.

Or ask her to find and describe in detail at least two separate smuggling operations.

Or give her a flat amount of gold and ask her to double it over the next three months.

Or tell her to organize a trade deal, and we'll grade her based on how much it benefits the Empire.

You get the idea. And sure, she could also do any of those exercises in Barak Varr or what-have-you, but this is an opportunity for her to stretch her wings outside of the Old World for a bit - I don't see a reason to *not* bring her along.
 
Tasoli said:
Yet there is only one banishing spell that works on 4 different deamons and I think it might even work on Verminlord of Horned rat yet they don't work on apparations. Clearly underlaying metaphisical difference exist and bigger than the difference between deamon and apparation.

Difference is more like fabric coloring and blood as far as I am concerned. You can use bleach but that one is overstrong in turn isn't it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sure, but we don't classify what is stain and what is coloring based on the results of the stain remover. We first reach some consensus what is what and then try to make a stain remover that works on all stains and doesn't work on coloring. Blood stains don't become fashionable just because you have a heard time washing them out. Similarly the failure of the spell to banish apparitions doesn't say anything about their daemonic nature or lack thereof.

To clarify my position: I don't argue that apparitions are daemons (on the contrary I think that they probably aren't), I just think that some spell reaction to them isn't proof one way or the other.
 
Tasoli said:
The people in the power also accepts Djinn of Araby. So I think you are overblowing the problem. It is not that apparations inheretely bad, it is that they do look bad.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If a magician with a djinn would show up in the empire he would probably be getting attacked by the authorities outside of like Altdorf, nuln and maybe middenheim at a stretch and generally they still don't show up that often. Their an outside of context issue.
If it comes out that the colleges have hidden how some of their stronger spells work because it gets close to daemon binding then the hiding alone will be enough to discount any one order "proving" the innocence of another.
 
LightLan said:
Personally I do not want to go to Lothern at all while the waystone project is still running, it'll vastly delay waystone project payoff in real time because it'll be an entire arc.

Those take time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not caring about the trip and wanting to do other things is completely valid. But putting it off because she has other things on her plate is a recipe for it never being done at all. The problem is that that it will always be the case that Mathilde has other things on her plate, so long as the quest is running.

Others in the thread do care about the trip and have been wanting to go for a while, put off by arguments that Eight Peaks needed securing, then that the Dum expedition was imminent, then that leaving while the Project was only just starting was not a good look, then that she needed more killiness so finish that sword style and get an apparition.

I don't think it's utterly locked in that we'll go on Turn 44, but there's been momentum building for a very long time.
 
Last edited:
Tobtorp said:
If a magician with a djinn would show up in the empire he would probably be getting attacked by the authorities outside of like Altdorf, nuln and maybe middenheim at a stretch and generally they still don't show up that often. Their an outside of context issue.
If it comes out that the colleges have hidden how some of their stronger spells work because it gets close to daemon binding then the hiding alone will be enough to discount any one order "proving" the innocence of another.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A magician with bound Djinn attended our Waaagh lecture.

(The Djinn were bound in rings rather than being out-and-about)
 
LockedMind said:
We first reach some consensus
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
With whom exactly? Several Collages seem to independly come to same conclusion as apparations not being deamons as an Authorothy on the subject yet people talk like unless we can convince a mob sigmarite zealots that can't read it doesn't count.

More to point Elves use apparations as well(I think). Would you feel better IF we were to look it up in the Library of Mourning?
 
Redshirt Army said:
Ask her to write up and categorize the kinds of ships she sees pull in, their origins, and their cargo, and analyze what that means about Ulthuan's trade.

Or ask her to find and describe in detail at least two separate smuggling operations.

Or give her a flat amount of gold and ask her to double it over the next three months.

Or tell her to organize a trade deal, and we'll grade her based on how much it benefits the Empire.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ok let's go through that list because I got opinions on some of these.
1) sightseeing disguised as busywork, we really don't need ulthuan trade records over a 3 month period...
2) actually dangerous because your following smugglers that are sure enough of themselves to smuggle into ulthuani under the watch of the seaguard.
3) might be an actual task but runs into making money for moneys sake and with that the oath.
4) is probably the most likely but runs into some smaller problems, mostly that the EIC has no harbor that even remotely could receive oceanic trade goods, closest would be barak varr and the new canal and even then it would either involve elves docking in barak varr or you made a trade deal with the humans there.

Edit:
Mopman43 said:
A magician with bound Djinn attended our Waaagh lecture.



(The Djinn were bound in rings rather than being out-and-about)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And my exception of Altdorf covered that?
 
Last edited:
Tobtorp said:
If a magician with a djinn would show up in the empire he would probably be getting attacked by the authorities outside of like Altdorf, nuln and maybe middenheim at a stretch and generally they still don't show up that often. Their an outside of context issue.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Literally one was in our Waagh lecture. So clearly not.

Tobtorp said:
If it comes out that the colleges have hidden how some of their stronger spells work because it gets close to daemon binding then the hiding alone will be enough to discount any one order "proving" the innocence of another.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Elves use Apparations I think (orginal Gehena was noted) So nope. IT is not deamon binding. It just looks like it.
Tobtorp said:
Ok let's go through that list because I got opinions on some of these.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Set up EIC tradepost with idea of adding Lothern Rumormill to our existing network. Any trade deals would pay for the rumormill.

It is useful but not dangerious.
 
Last edited:
Tasoli said:
Literally one was in our Waagh lecture. So clearly not.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ok so you also didn't read my exception of Altdorf, need to write in bigger font I think...
Tasoli said:
Elves use Apparations I think (orginal Gehena was noted) So nope. IT is not deamon binding. It just looks like it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Did I say its daemon binding? No? Then next time don't put words in my mouth.
Even boney said to us that it looks dangerously close to daemon binding.
 
Last edited:
Tasoli said:
Are we back to letting random people on the street deciding specialist issue like this?

Again Elves use Apparation so clearly IT is not just a matter of Collages deciding for themselves.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No, we will let the emperor and the electors decide, who have marginally more knowledge about magic then the average altdorfer and who will ask the cults about this.

Edit:
You keep going "it's a specialist issue" and it is if discussed internally in the colleges, but should it ever come out it will be a general issue of the colleges hiding magical practices for their benefits that might be explicitly forbidden by the articles.
 
Last edited:
Tobtorp said:
No, we will let the emperor and the electors decide, who have marginally more knowledge about magic then the average altdorfer and who will ask the cults about this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So Emperor will send the issue to SP as his magic advisor and problem will be solved. Cults should not be involved as they know nothing.
Tobtorp said:
Did I say its daemon binding? No? Then next time don't put words in my mouth.
Even bones said to us that it looks dangerously close to daemon binding.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Wait what are you arguing for again?

My thesis is that Apparations are not Deamons and there is some proof of that. What is your anti-thesis exactly!
 
Tobtorp said:
You keep going "it's a specialist issue" and it is if discussed internally in the colleges, but should it ever come out it will be a general issue of the colleges hiding magical practices for their benefits that might be explicitly forbidden by the articles.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
According to our Apparation teacher it does not count as violation to the articles so again it just looks bad. Is not bad.
 
Tasoli said:
My thesis is that Apparations are not Deamons and there is some proof of that. What is your anti-thesis exactly!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My thesis is that if it ever comes out the colleges have lied about their spells then that it won't matter that it's "technically alright" and that the " elves do it all the time" because at that point the trust is already gone and and I've said this again and again.
I've never argued that it is daemon binding, but that if it comes out us pointing to the lights as prove it isn't won't matter.
Edit:
Tasoli said:
According to our Apparation teacher it does not count as violation to the articles so again it just looks bad. Is not bad.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Our apparitions teacher also only did it for boatload of dangerous artifacts and under the express instructions to keep it absolutely quiet and them out of our mouth...
 
Last edited:
Tobtorp said:
My thesis is that if it ever comes out the colleges have lied about their spells then that it won't matter that it's "technically alright" and that the " elves do it all the time" because at that point the trust is already gone and and I've said this again and again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Colleges have probably lied about lots of their spells. Like, lots. Just as one example, they almost certainly aren't telling people how Tale of Metal and Breach the Unknown work.

Honestly, I don't think Apparitions are worth worrying about compared to, as one example, the Colleges summoning Incarnate Elementals of the Winds through literal human sacrifice.
 
Problem with the argument that "X shouldn ot be involved, they know nothing" is that it gets deployed all the time, often even when untrue, and the X never agree with it.
 
Tobtorp said:
My thesis is that if it ever comes out the colleges have lied about their spells then that it won't matter that it's "technically alright" and that the " elves do it all the time" because at that point the trust is already gone and and I've said this again and again.
I've never argued that it is daemon binding, but that if it comes out us pointing to the lights as prove it isn't won't matter.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If it comes out there will be some unrest that Collages don't want but it would Hardly going to cause collages to be outlawed or anything like that.

IT is Articles ok!

But here is the thing, That was not like what I was arguing for and it seem you are putting words to my mouth for all this time. I said our apparations are not deamons and there is some some some proof towards that way with very little proving opposite. We are not trying to prove it to sigmarite mob on the street, that has no bearing on an actual academical discussion yet for some reason you can't help but keep bring them up.

There is already large mob that is ready to lych Wizards but that has never been a reason to stop magical research. You just act mindful of politics of the matter which collages are doing by keeping quiet. But that is not out of guilt or anything like that.
 
Last edited:
Tobtorp said:
Ok let's go through that list because I got opinions on some of these.
1) sightseeing disguised as busywork, we really don't need ulthuan trade records over a 3 month period...
2) actually dangerous because your following smugglers that are sure enough of themselves to smuggle into ulthuani under the watch of the seaguard.
3) might be an actual task but runs into making money for moneys sake and with that the oath.
4) is probably the most likely but runs into some smaller problems, mostly that the EIC has no harbor that even remotely could receive oceanic trade goods, closest would be barak varr and the new canal and even then it would either involve elves docking in barak varr or you made a trade deal with the humans there.

Edit:


And my exception of Altdorf covered that?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A lot of those ideas look to me like being similar projects to what Regimand had Mathilde do: shadow random people to learn about them. Yes these thing can be done elsewhere than in Lothern (and I don't think anyone has argued otherwise), but they do allow one to be productive learning in Ulthuan - which still has the appeal of being Ulthuan.
 
Mopman43 said:
Honestly, I don't think Apparitions are worth worrying about compared to, as one example, the Colleges summoning Incarnate Elementals of the Winds through literal human sacrifice.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The incarnate elementals are more horrific, absolutely but their also know about. Weapons of war that cost life's to deploy, maybe the empire doesn't like it but is a known quantity.
The apparitions are not known about, pretty deliberately kept hidden and used not just as last resort but as regular spells.
It just paints a bad picture for anyone outside of the colleges.
Tasoli said:
IT is Articles ok!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sure it is! That's why 3 different orders have come to the same conclusion of keeping it absolutely hidden from anyone else that they use apparitions like that!
It is probably ok with the articles but it's also close enough that the colleges don't want to risk it it seems.
Tasoli said:
We are not trying to prove it to sigmarite mob on the street, that has no bearing on an actual academical discussion yet for some reason you can't help but keep bring them up.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Because I made the point that it might be academically ok but that has no bearing on how the movers and shakers of the empire would perceive it, and then I got flooded with "but it's not a daemon, and it can't be because the lights! And the elf's do it too." Which have almost no bearing how the empire elite would react to finding out about what amounts to a conspiracy of several orders of magic to keep certain spells hidden to not be asked uncomfortable questions!
 
Last edited:
Minor question, since it has been some time since Johann went blind by now.

Wasn't it possible to either try again or heal him some years in the future?
Something about the Chamon having to disperse?
 
[X] Plan Redshirt v1: Infrastructure Focus
-[X] JOHANN: Lovely Laurelorn (Ward of Storms), with Eike/Wolf
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Auditory Sevirscope, bring in a wizard with auditory windsight with CF as needed)
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation: Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs & The Polyphenic Theory of Lizardmen Society
-[X] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[X] Waystone: Build a Waystone (Everyone)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Waystone: Other Networks (Karaz Ankor) (Thorek)

-[X] EIC: Assist in the creation of the magical route through the Schadensumpf, both personally and with the EIC's influence and resources
-[X] KAU: Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes: Old World Languages (Khazalid, Estalian, Bretonnian, Kislevarin)
-[X] SERENITY: Write a book : Aethyric Vitae 1/2

-[X] Eike Actions: Karaz Ankor Network, Storm Ward Exploration, Schadensumpf Magic Route, Sevirscope
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)
 
[X] Plan Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration Language Edition

My proposed plan generated limited interest and precisely zero engagement, but after editing an offshoot of a popular vote and having that win I've gone mad with hubris.

So I'm posting two variants of it, even knowing irl stuff keeps me too busy or tired to argue for stuff the way I want to:

[X] Plan: Preppin for the Elfcation
-[X] Waystone: Build a Waystone (Everyone)
--[X] The Gambler
-[X] Waystone: Other Networks (Karaz Ankor) (Thorek)
-[X] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[X] Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Ward of Storms)
-[X] Receive training: Scouting with Kazador
-[X] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[X] KAU: Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes (Old World Languages)
-[X] Serenity- Write a paper: Aethyric Vitae 1/2
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Build a Waystone)
-[X] Eike actions (Scouting with Kazador, Explore Laurelorn, EIC action, Karaz Ankor network)
-[X] Eike Study: (Intrigue training with the Hochlander)

[X] Plan: Morb Completionism with Elfcation Prep
-[X] Waystone: Build a Waystone (Everyone)
--[X] The Gambler
-[X] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[X] Write a paper: Aetheric Vitae 1/2
-[X] Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Ward of Storms)
-[X] Receive training: Scouting with Kazador
-[X] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[X] KAU: Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes (Old World Languages)
-[X] Serenity- Write a paper: Aethyric Vitae 2/2
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Build a Waystone)
-[X] Eike actions (Scouting with Kazador, Explore Laurelorn, EIC action)
-[X] Eike Study: (Intrigue training with the Hochlander)






That said, these are only my second favorite turnplans. I'm also encouraging everyone to vote for a Father Turn:

[X] Plan A Morbifying Ore Deal

I've made so many posts arguing for it myself that I'm kind of spent, and every time it's brought up it's kind of half joking- but I really think it would be cool, as well as useful. I want to recruit Bretonnia, I want to see more of the Hedgewise, I want to know who the other Daughter is. I'm gonna be advocating for it as much as I can this turn, and if need be the turn after this, and on and on. Please consider it while making your votes.

Oh, also my proposed plans are cool too. Diplomacy, scouting, hard cash- our three missing ingredients in the ultimate summer vacation.
 
Last edited:
Got home (just barely) in time. Took out the stones and scopes part of the name to make it more recognizable, but none of that changed. I'm going to post two versions from the start one with Vlag one with languages since I'd approval vote the second one anyway. Hopefully all the changes made to the plan made for a good end package:

[X] Plan Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration Vlag Edition
-[X] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[X] Serenity: Write a book : Aethyric Vitae 1/2
-[X] Waystone: Build a Waystone: Everyone.
-[X] Waystone: Other Networks Karaz Ankor: Runelord Thorek
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Auditory Seviroscope) Spend 5 CF for a Magister with Auditory Magesight to help out
-[X] JOHANN: Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Storms)
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation: Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs, The Polyphenic Theory of Lizardmen Society
-[X] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[X] KAU: Seek an exchange arrangement with another Library or a Karak's archives to be able to make copies of their corpus (Karak Vlag Archives)
-[X] COIN: Gambler: Build a Waystone
-[X] Eike Study: Learn Enchantment at the Colleges 1 CF
-[X] Eike Actions: Karaz Ankor Network with Thorek, Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm, Explore the Ward of Storms with Johann

[X] Plan Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration Language Edition
-[X] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[X] Serenity: Write a book : Aethyric Vitae 1/2
-[X] Waystone: Build a Waystone: Everyone.
-[X] Waystone: Other Networks Karaz Ankor: Runelord Thorek
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Auditory Seviroscope) Spend 5 CF for a Magister with Auditory Magesight to help out
-[X] JOHANN: Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Storms)
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation: Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs, The Polyphenic Theory of Lizardmen Society
-[X] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[X] KAU:Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes (Old World Languages)
-[X] COIN: Gambler: Build a Waystone
-[X] Eike Study: Learn Enchantment at the Colleges 1 CF
-[X] Eike Actions: Karaz Ankor Network with Thorek, Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm, Explore the Ward of Storms with Johann
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top