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That's a perfectly valid outlook. And there will doubtless be a [ ] Take no payment option.

Personally, I'd rather leverage the good work we've done into getting even more good work done, by getting the Bretonnians to commit as much to bettering the world as we have as the price of entry. Trade is not zero-sum. Both partners can be better off by paying for what the other has to offer.
 
That's a perfectly valid outlook. And there will doubtless be a [ ] Take no payment option.

Personally, I'd rather leverage the good work we've done into getting even more good work done, by getting the Bretonnians to commit as much to bettering the world as we have as the price of entry. Trade is not zero-sum. Both partners can be better off by paying for what the other has to offer.
Ah, I know what you mean. You mean trai canals.
...canallllssssss

I feel like part of this thread is getting into this weird favor trading, "well what's in it for us" headspace.
It's fucked up and stupid, yeah.
But in the interest of expanding the network I'm only currently arguing for the end result of Bretonnia the capability of repairing the network in their territory.
When it comes down to it I'll be arguing for something that I deem actually ethically tolerable to bargain for.
 
I am genuinely pretty perturbed by people talking about things like "selling waystones to the brettonians" like they have to pay us in some way for the privilege of... reinforcing a world saving work of infrastructure, specifically the portion the empire relies on to not become part of the chaos wastes.

I saw some similar arguments with Ulthuan.

People do realize that the more order aligned groups work on this the better right?

Were not hurting some sort of monopoly by letting people make waystones, were helping fulfil our goals.

I feel like part of this thread is getting into this weird favor trading, "well what's in it for us" headspace.
If you're doing something right, you shouldn't do it for free. We've also spent a lot of personal and organizational work getting as far as we have, and unfortunately we didn't go out of our way to hire the Damsels earlier.

This means that if we just gave Bretonnia waystones for free, the other group members would rightly feel miffed: they've sacrificed a lot of personal time and effort when they could have been home doing their own thing to improve their own polities in a more direct way, so why should Bretonnia get the fruits of their hard work so easily? Why shouldn't they and their polities be compensated as well?
 
Mathilde didn't get anything for promotion to Lady Magister (apart from a secret).

She would have gotten a staff for promotion to Magister, but there wasn't a Turner in residence.
We got a private mailbox!
I am genuinely pretty perturbed by people talking about things like "selling waystones to the brettonians" like they have to pay us in some way for the privilege of... reinforcing a world saving work of infrastructure, specifically the portion the empire relies on to not become part of the chaos wastes.

I saw some similar arguments with Ulthuan.

People do realize that the more order aligned groups work on this the better right?

We're not hurting some sort of monopoly by letting people make waystones, we're helping fulfil our goals.

I feel like part of this thread is getting into this weird favor trading, "well what's in it for us" headspace.
What's in it for us and every polity that risked the time and secrets of some of their greatest magic users on a project who nobody thought would ever produce a functioning waystone.

People are bringing it up because Boney said after we had a waystone it would be "what are they willing to do for us" instead of "what are we willing to do for them". But the key, diagetic fact of the matter is that the participants who put in the time and effort and risk deserve to be rewarded for it, and that a general policy of rewarding the people who came in closer to the ground floor than the next guy is good for encouraging people to get in on the ground floor - or at the very least, join sooner than normal - in the future.

Everyone we are cooperating with here has some degree of "what's in it for us" because it is very much not free for them to offer their contribution. Ignoring that is a good way to stress the support given from those polities, which seems like a poor decision when we need Thorgrim to decide to trust us on troubleshooting/expanding the KA network for that part of helping the old world to be possible at all.
 
I am genuinely pretty perturbed by people talking about things like "selling waystones to the brettonians" like they have to pay us in some way for the privilege of... reinforcing a world saving work of infrastructure, specifically the portion the empire relies on to not become part of the chaos wastes.

I saw some similar arguments with Ulthuan.

People do realize that the more order aligned groups work on this the better right?

We're not hurting some sort of monopoly by letting people make waystones, we're helping fulfil our goals.

I feel like part of this thread is getting into this weird favor trading, "well what's in it for us" headspace.
I am probably biased because I'm annoyed with Bretonnia for the weird social games they tried to play with us, but: Ulthuan is absolutely, undeniably, unremovably vital to the functioning of the Waystone network because of the Vortex, they had pioneered the field (in Mathilde's words), and they do care about the whole world, even if they see most other people as beneath their attention*

*individual attitudes do not have to match, but that's the vibe I got from them in general.

Meanwhile, Bretonnia just happens to sit downstream from us (which, funnily enough, makes them more secure), just happens to be against Chaos because knights need baddies to show off their chivalry against, and is otherwise just kinda... bleh. If they wanna buy knowledge, like Ulthuan is now, they can pay and we won't snub them or anything. But everyone in the project has invested heavily and risked dearly held secrets for uncertain outcomes, so Bretonnia won't get preferential treatment for coming in late.

Edit: also, the earlier weird Ulthuan arguments, if that's what you're referencing, were about getting them to pay for the energy being sent, which is weird and dumb and dangerously enabling brinksmanship games. Knowledge is a whole different thing, and everyone IC acknowledges its value.
 
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The benefit of making the Bretonnians pay for stuff is pinning them down on doing good things that help the world. We know they have a set of their total resources that isn't going towards 'good things' because that's the set their restless nobles periodically use to wage war on us with.
Whats next? Canals to nehekhara? Think of how much food we could grow by irrigating the desert
A little bit above Nehekhara, there's a place called the Marshes of Madness. It's pretty close to the real Suez, and I'm eyeing the geography to see if we couldn't go about making our history a reality over there.

A water passage from the Old World to Cathay would change everything.

Of course, the planned route cuts through Nagash's personal swimming pool and the world's first Warpstone disposal pond, but I'm sure we can handle the various final bosses of canal construction with a proper end game build.
 
Again, can I say I'm now doubly against talking to Bretonnia soon? They are now firmly in the customer seat, even more so than they were. We develop a method to do waystones first, then sell it to them.

Giving waystones to Bretonnia will actually mean less waystones, btw. Making them buy it will mean more waystones, and better protected ones.

If nobility needs to compete to brag that they got their waystone first because they shelled out more for it, then guess what? That waystone won't be destroyed for a stupid reason of vanity, and getting them done will be a priority, along with any sort of maintance.

If you give them away for free, they will be perceived as maybe slightly more valuable than the price given, or in otherwords, worthless.

Also, giving it away for free is frankly doing a disservice to everyone who contributed early to the project, and robbing them of their contributed secrets for no gain.

The other thing people don't realize is that trade is a win win game, and is much more useful to a collective than simple gift giving. What they give us will be something they value less than they value the new waystones. They still benefit, and so do we.
 
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"The last time we agreed to share secrets with you, you gave them away to everyone who asked without consulting or compensating us. Why should we get on board with your next proposal?"

The basis of the Project is sharing knowledge between Project members. We as the lead have the prerogative to expand the Project to include new members, but the assumption is that anyone joining is bringing something to the table. And if they're not bringing anything to the table, that they are willing to compensate the existing members for the secrets that they'll be taking.
 
[x] [ULTHUAN] Cooperation
[x] [BLOOD] Personal (book agreements with all possible kislev libraries)
[x] [BLOOD] Empire (Canal linking the Urskoy and Lynsk)
[x] [BLOOD] Personal (Partnership between Kislev's libraries and KAU)
 
Again, can I say I'm now doubly against talking to Bretonnia soon? They are now firmly in the customer seat, even more so than they were. We develop a method to do waystones first, then sell it to them.

Giving waystones to Bretonnia will actually mean less waystones, btw. Making them buy it will mean more waystones, and better protected ones.

If nobility needs to compete to brag that they got their waystone first because they shelled out more for it, then guess what? That waystone won't be destroyed for a stupid reason of vanity, and getting them done will be a priority, along with any sort of maintance.

If you give them away for free, they will be perceived as maybe slightly more valuable than the price given, or in otherwords, worthless.

Also, giving it away for free is frankly doing a disservice to everyone who contributed early to the project, and robbing them of their contributed secrets for no gain.

The other thing people don't realize is that trade is a win win game, and is much more useful to a collective than simple gift giving. What they give us will be something they value less than they value the new waystones. They still benefit, and so do we.
"Thank you for meeting with me. I'll let you know as soon as I can where the project will be based out of. Even if it's not in Bretonnia, if it bears fruit we'll do our best to spread the benefits as widely as possible."
 
"Thank you for meeting with me. I'll let you know as soon as I can where the project will be based out of. Even if it's not in Bretonnia, if it bears fruit we'll do our best to spread the benefits as widely as possible."

"Good intentions have a way of fading with distance," Schermilde replies, her smile a little strained. "Do think it over."
That's more or less what Boris said, too, but the Bretonnians here were kinda lukewarm in attitude the entire meeting and downplayed... pretty much everything they said, while Boris was straightforward and enthusiastic. In his case it can be understood as pessimism, in their... entitlement, that's the feeling I get.

It's probably not true, but they did make a worse impression on me.
 
I mean, I just want to have a strong enough bargaining position that we can get, in exchange for our secrets, either serious magical assistance (for cracking the secrets of Nexuses) or serious martial assistance (for reclaiming the ones we've lost control of). I don't think that's an unreasonable position to take: it's basically the same attitude I have toward Ulthuan, and their surprising willingness to play ball on this point has swung the thread's attitude on them tremendously.

(I wonder if there was a background roll for how Finubar's court reacted to Teclis's letters. I wonder if it made Boney sigh and curse Ranald.)
 
That's more or less what Boris said, too, but the Bretonnians here were kinda lukewarm in attitude the entire meeting and downplayed... pretty much everything they said
It's explained pretty well in some of Boneys posts on his Bretonnia lore. Apparently their society is incredibly based on hiding their realpolitik behind their optimistic story and not breaking Kayfabe.

It might not have been the best first impression to Dwarf Mathilde recruiting for a shoot for the moon save the world project, but I think it's incredibly interesting and I'd really like to see more of it, and Bretonnia in general.
 
I'm the only one that want's to do the brettonia stuff solely to go track and likely kill the mountains Orcs?

Like I feel like people get mad that they gave us a side quest to get their support but I just want to do it.

Yeahh elfication and and all for adventure we have repeated that a lot of times and yes I get that that ill be the adventure turns.

But I kind of just want to go and have that small adventure anyways and has been a good while since the last adventure.

No other reason particularly on the bringing to they Weystone thing.

I just want to do it because I think it will be fun.
 
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Just one think I want to bring up. Bretonnia might not actually be willing to pay as much as say kislev for waystone access... They are the nation with the least need aside from the asur themselves.
 
It is worth noting that basically every "complete waystone system" right now still involves some magical secrets from most of the participants. Once that physical infrastructure is there in a country, it can be studied and, with time and effort, reverse engineered. The way I see it the fact that their spread is good for the world is the only reason they're available to be "bought" at all.
 
(I wonder if there was a background roll for how Finubar's court reacted to Teclis's letters. I wonder if it made Boney sigh and curse Ranald.)

Boney's post on the subject was this one:

When I was figuring out who would be the one Ulthuan sent to be Maximum Elf at the Waystone Project, I realized that amongst a council of princes that put all their stat points into Smug Obstructivism would be the guy staring blankly into space with his internal monologue going "I could be restoring Tor Yvresse right now" who would start into attentiveness when someone said the word 'Waystone' and would then be himself very sternly at everyone present until he got his way.

Which is to say, I think, that Eltharion's characterization made what has occurred a foregone conclusion.
 
I'm the only one that want's to do the brettonia stuff solely to go track and likely kill the mountains Orcs?

Like I feel like people get mad that they gave us a side quest for their support but I just want to do it.

Yeahh elfication and and all for adventure we have repeated that a lot of times and yes I get that that ill be the adventure turns.

But I kind of just want to go and have that small adventure anyways.

No other reason particularly on the bringing to they Weystone thing.

I just want to do it because I think it will be fun.
Oh. Don't get me wrong in the slightest, I absolutely want to go krump some mountain orcs regardless. We haven't fought orcs in ages, have we even gotten to use waaghsbane? Like, really use it?

I just also want them to pay (in some fashion) for waystones, lol.
 
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I distinctly remember late 20s, partly because Realms of Sorcery page 77 says that there's never been a journeyman younger than late 20s/early 30s and Divided Loyalties is based on WFRP 2e.

I ended up ignoring that because the same source says that while 15-20 is the norm, Apprentices as young as 10 aren't unknown, and a twenty-year Apprenticeship seemed a bit much. And this way the thread got to have as much influence as possible on the person the protagonist ended up becoming, rather than them starting out with someone pushing thirty and already pretty set in their ways.

@Boney are you ever surprised at the way the player base comes up with doing things in these quest?

Not as often as you might think. When I'm deciding what options to present for a vote, it's based on the different directions I think the thread might want to go in. And when I'm writing a post that presents a vote, I'm careful to write in such a way that every possible decision is at least plausible so I don't bias the vote and to keep from writing myself into a corner. Writing Mathilde in a superposition leaves me pretty ready to roll with whatever ends up taking the lead.

That said, I'm very rarely able to predict which votes will be a complete blow-out and which will go right down to the wire.

Wair a moment! @Boney will Eltharion the Grim still be around Next turn for the Orb Flex? Because if so, we could have him stand their while we do our Two Gifts Day routine and give him a copy of our book and that is hilarious!

Can you imagine the nonreaction from elf batman to finding out we can make Orbs of Sorcery now? Because I can!

He'll probably be at least checking in every now and then until the Project finishes a full Waystone prototype. Probably more, considering how the vote is going.

Soo... are they going to call this the Vladimir Bokha Canal? You know in honor of the late Tsar's great foresight, slain before his time by Lahmian vampires without even getting the chance to unveil his great work. :V

It's probably going to end up known as the Zhanyka Canal. There's a very minor ataman nearby that has no idea how thoroughly their life is about to get upended.

Hey. Hey. Boney.

I'm not actually asking you what would be needed to make this happen, I just want you to know that I want a canal through the neck. also gunpoweder. to Cathay.

Well, if you build an underground river equal to that of the Chaos Dwarves' one to Uzkulak you could get to the Sour Sea from Ulrikadrin, which gets you to the Sea of Dread and to Ind. Alternatively you could treaty with Nehekhara and build one from the Great Mortis River to the Blight Water and from there to the Sour Sea. Both have big Nagash-shaped complications to them, but that just makes it fun.

The rest of the path is trickier. Either Ind doesn't have rivers, which, uh, no, or the canonical maps omit them. If we assume they're there, then you'd still need to get across the Mountains of Heaven and to do that you'll need to deal with the Monkey King, and if he's anything like his namesake, that'll be fun. Alternately, in Total Warhammer Cathay already has a canal from their Great River to the gulf between Ind and Khuresh.
 
Oh. Don't get me wrong in the slightest, I absolutely want to go krump some mountain orcs regardless. We haven't fought orcs in ages, have we even gotten to use waaghsbane? Like, really use it?

I just also want them to pay for waystones.

I think doing the Iron Orc thing combined with asking them to send some knights to free up any Waystones in unsavory hands and give us a Damsel on the project is a pretty good compromise option. It's Brettonnia being useful and helpful but in a way that's helpful to everyone including them, and doesn't come off as us being greedy.
 
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