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No the concept iteself works. My objection is that for this sort of thing they're going to want details (apart from anything else, you can't make a better offer if you don't know what the other offer is) and if Mathidle fails to correctly judge what the Druchii would be willing to offer (something Ulthuan is in a good position to know because they have spies in Naggaroth and a more complete picture of Malekith's personality) then Ulthuan will assume that it's a Druchii trick or they won't be practically able to match the offer (not impossible, Malekith is an absolute ruler, no one in Ulthuan is) and then it might ruin negotiations. Conversely, Mathilde could misjudge Ulthuan's responses and get the Druchii to think something is screwy (I think this is less likely, but it's still possible she'll, for example, lowball Ulthuan's offer and make the Druchii think the Asur thinkt eh project is unviable or something).

It is, IMO, a risky plan. More risky than actually just negotiating with one or both sides.
Well in that example she could say she can't talk about the specifics. That would avoid the whole problem of needing to know what one side would ask for in exchange for their waystone knowledge.

Conversely dealing with just one side means that with no competitors the seller has all the advantage and can set the price as whatever the hell they want. If we're dealing with two sides though we may as well have the ability to perfectly lie since it grants a great advantage.
 
I think we should avoid antagonizing Ulthuan, even just by suggesting thay Naggaroth gave us a better deal, even if it would or might get us a better deal at the negotiating table.
 
If anything, Ulthuan should be relieved that we came to them for a counteroffer instead of just yeeting ourselves at Naggaroth the moment they dangled some shinies in front of us.
People are not robots. If you tell them to do things for you or else you'll get them from their ancestral enemies who have committed unspeakable atrocities against them, there's every chance that they'll simply be enraged instead of grateful that you came to them first.

How do you think Thorgrim would react if you went to him and told him to tell us the secrets of the Throne of Power and the dwarf runic network, or else you'll go to Skavenblight to trade with the Council of Thirteen for the information?
 
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This is the exact same argument as "we should extort Ulthuan for the privilege of sending magical energy to keep their island floating" but repackaged about how the Asur should feel bad for thinking that treating with the nation that is *check notes* an existential threat to them in specific and the world in general beyond the pale.

No it isn't? There's no similarity between them. For a start, there is no argument that we should extort Ulthuan at all, unless you consider "please help us prevent the death of the world" to be extortion.

Secondly, Ulthuan is currently being antagonistic to the Empire, and maybe they need a wake up call that we'd make better friends than enemies, before we actually become enemies, and pointing out that we're considering friendship with their ancient foe—who, for geopolitical reasons, isn't our foe—might be the jump start they need to be more involved with with us.
 
When your suggestion has an "or else" built into it, it is extortion.
Any suggestion that we could go to druchi instead is a threat about what we will do if they don't do as we demand.
 
But it does get them, because that saving the world thing? It's not a "has saved the world" it's a "is currently still saving it" which makes it a thing to consider.
I agree that past glory should be in the past but not accepting that their still doing it is just ignoring current realities.
And if Dragonheart wants some help or consideration for his work I would be happy to give it to him. The elfish government has about nothing to do with it.
 
How do you think Thorgrim would react if you went to him and told him to tell us the secrets of the Throne of Power and the dwarf runic network, or else you'll go to Skavenblight to trade with the Council of Thirteen for the information?

I think trying to compare elven and dwarven reactions to the same situation kind misses the point of how elves are not dwarfs and neither are human.

Yeah trying something like this with Dwarfs would likely backfire, but if the Eonir think doing such thing could work then it stands to reason from the elven perpective dealing with Naggaroth isn't obviously going to instantly blow in our faces.
 
People are not robots. If you tell them to do things for you or else you'll get them from their ancestral enemies who have committed unspeakable atrocities against them, there's every chance that they'll simply be enraged instead of grateful that you came to them first.

How do you think Thorgrim would react if you went to him and told him to tell us the secrets of the Throne of Power and the dwarf runic network, or else you'll go to Skavenblight to trade with the Council of Thirteen for the information?

It's exactly the same thing Queen Marisith of Laurelorn is doing right now. She's literally playing the two factions against each other whilst dancing around the idea of committing to who is the real Phoenix King.

So either she's a blithering idiot who's childish attempts at politics is going to result in the complete extinction of her people, or maybe, just maybe, playing the two sides against each other is a valid form of diplomacy.

When your suggestion has an "or else" built into it, it is extortion.
Any suggestion that we could go to druchi instead is a threat about what we will do if they don't do as we demand.

Good thing I didn't say "or else" then, isn't it?
 
So either she's a blithering idiot who's childish attempts at politics is going to result in the complete extinction of her people, or maybe, just maybe, playing the two sides against each other is a valid form of diplomacy.
Admittedly, Mathilde might have more personal experience interacting with Asur than the Queen does at this point.
 
I think we should avoid antagonizing Ulthuan, even just by suggesting thay Naggaroth gave us a better deal, even if it would or might get us a better deal at the negotiating table.

Can you elaborate as to why? I don't think we should pointlessly antagonize Ulthuan, but this seems to go a fair bit further than that.

People are not robots. If you tell them to do things for you or else you'll get them from their ancestral enemies who have committed unspeakable atrocities against them, there's every chance that they'll simply be enraged.

How do you think Thorgrim would react if you went to him and told him to tell us the secrets of the Throne of Power and the dwarf runic network, or else you'll go to Skavenblight to trade with the Council of Thirteen for the information?

Poorly. That being said, the fact that Mathilde is in many ways a subject of one of Thorgrim's subjects and that the Dawi are particularly prone to that sort of reaction does complicate this analogy. This is especially true as Mathilde has no official standing to inquire as to the secrets of the Throne of Power except possibly through the Waystone Project or for Belegar, and both the Empire and Belegar would most certainly not approve her trading with Skavenblight (for reasons relating to both the very recent sinking of a significant chunk of Nuln and the fact that the Karaz Ankor is already a valued trading partner and ally).

On the other hand, the Empire probably would approve trading with Druchii, this is information that is of direct relevance to her official duties, and Ulthuan is a neutral (to mildly hostile, given their support of Marienburg) party, so she has somewhat firmer ground to stand on here.

When your suggestion has an "or else" built into it, it is extortion.
Any suggestion that we could go to druchi instead is a threat about what we will do if they don't do as we demand.

Unless I misunderstand, that implies that any attempt to negotiate over prices is extortion, since the fundamental foundation of doing so is "Lower your price and/or increase the value of your goods or else I will buy from someone else (or not at all)".
 
Good thing I didn't say "or else" then, isn't it?
Really?
And if it does upset them, what are they going to do? Let the Empire ally with the Druchii?
If this is not an "or else", i don't know what is.

Unless I misunderstand, that implies that any attempt to negotiate over prices is extortion, since the fundamental foundation of doing so is "Lower your price and/or increase the value of your goods or else I will buy from someone else (or not at all)".
When your position includes "or i might go to your ancestral enemies the magical turbo nazi's", yes, yes it is.
 
I think trying to compare elven and dwarven reactions to the same situation kind misses the point of how elves are not dwarfs and neither are human.

Yeah trying something like this with Dwarfs would likely backfire, but if the Eonir think doing such thing could work then it stands to reason from the elven perpective dealing with Naggaroth isn't obviously going to instantly blow in our faces.
The Eonir have a unique position of being able to offer legitimacy due to being a former colony. The Empire does not have that same status, or the experience and familiarity to leverage it even if they did. The Eonir being able to do so does not make it a good idea for the Empire to attempt the same.
 
For negotiating with Ulthuan I would rather just get a prototype Waystone working with a river leyline, and then approach them to say we will be using the design to add to the network for now, but may divert all that energy we would add to other purposes later unless they work with us to negotiate a treaty on the distribution of Waystone energy, and teach us the rest of the codes to interact with the existing network. We could use the Deceiver to convince them we are are actively planning magic megaprojects to use the Winds we are planning to collect with the new Waystones while only sending them more Dhar. We could also claim to have working prototypes of other leyline options besides rivers, with the option to completely bypass their network if needed. That may even be the truth and the Deceiver isn't needed.

I have been thinking about all the steps I want to accomplish before negotiating with Ulthuan. For me, the main points I want to have accomplished first are having a working river leyline Waystone prototype, and having studied the Karaz Ankor and Laurelorn networks. I am not sure if I want to do the negotiations at the end of Elfcation so they can be in Lothern, or just do Elfcation and then worry about the negotiations separately. I think that is the major decision that affects the next few turns, and I am planning to write a big post helping outline the tradeoffs. I am waiting for the results of the Waystone actions on this turn before I do that because some of the details are too speculative for now.
 
While I do think there could be some kind of middle ground where we can use Naggaroth as contrast with Ulthuan in negotiations, I really think we should think long and hard before actually pushing for it.

We could point out that Marienburg has, with Ulthuan's support, left the Empire mostly without coastlines or the power to travel via sea or project naval power effectively. And by extension, this means that the Druchii are not that huge a threat compared to every other non-Dwarven polity in the world.

We could hope that they are smart enough to realize there are some unwise individuals in the Empire (which aren't us) who may in fact consider negotiating with Naggaroth due to this, and that they may start taking steps to ingratiate themselves a bit more with the Empire to prevent this.

Unspoken is the fact that Naggaroth diplomats are right there in Laurelorn.

When your suggestion has an "or else" built into it, it is extortion.
I do think I'd prefer to leave it as an unspoken implication, but 'extortion' is a huge stretch. If Ulthuan won't come to the table, then unless we decide to go for less ideal leyline options, we would probably have to look to Naggaroth for the leyline keyphrases. That would just be what happens.

It's exactly the same thing Queen Marisith of Laurelorn is doing right now. She's literally playing the two factions against each other whilst dancing around the idea of committing to who is the real Phoenix King.

So either she's a blithering idiot who's childish attempts at politics is going to result in the complete extinction of her people, or maybe, just maybe, playing the two sides against each other is a valid form of diplomacy.
There is admittedly also the middle ground to consider, which is that what she's doing is risky but doable because of Laurelorn's unique status as a super isolationist elven polity that has only recently stuck its head out of its shell. And by simple fact of being elves, they will already be seen by Ulthuan and Naggaroth as equals to negotiate with, not dumb primitives that have recently been given fire by Teclis and which can either be safely ignored, be condescending to, or taken advantage of.

Also important to consider is that Marrisith's job as queen essentially means that she has a tremendous amount of experience herding elves and handling politics. She is far more skilled at this than we are ever likely going to be.
 
The Eonir have a unique position of being able to offer legitimacy due to being a former colony. The Empire does not have that same status, or the experience and familiarity to leverage it even if they did. The Eonir being able to do so does not make it a good idea for the Empire to attempt the same.
Maybe, that is all more a question of what leverage we have to negotiate with and how well we can use that leverage. Wich is an entire diferent disscussion from we can't even attemp to negotiate with Naggaroth to gain some leverage whitout becoming eternal enemies
 
Once we are able to make working waystones, we should try to talk with Ulthuan.
Preferably as a united front with as much old world as we can (at least get Bretonnia on board).
But none of this trying to be clever with implied (and seemingly unintended) threats or claims that they have failed their duty by not sending constant armies to aid the empire or that they should pay us.
Just, try to show that we actually have enough knowledge to be useful ally, and make it clear we are not going to stop trying to fix things so them coming onboard just means that we can do the most good with least damage.
 
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I'm not especially inclined towards actually trading with the Druchii, in any case, unless Ulthuan forces our hand.

But I do think that Ulthuan's reaction is likely to depend on what we claim we intend to trade them and how we frame the proposition. There's a big difference between the claim that a particular Druchii has the codes and intends to offer them to us in exchange for a house in the Moot and a personal staff of Halfling chefs, and the claim that we're negotiating with a direct representative of Malekith to give us the codes in exchange for gunpowder and cannon.

(And if you think that first example sounds ridiculous, well... Yeah, but consider how the Moot came to be in the first place.)
 
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They might be getting energy sent there by the Geomantic Web of the Lizardmen, but that's not something we can confirm.

I don't think they're drawing in Magic from anywhere else really (Naggaroth, Cathay, etc)
Yeah, after thinking about it a bit more it's probably not as global as I was initially thinking, but it's definitely much more widespread than just the Empire. As you alluded to I think the lore generally suggests that the Slann deliberately reinforced the Great Vortex so I think it's reasonable to take it that Lustria also feeds into it, albeit not by the Elves' own efforts. And even as far as the Old World is concerned you've got Tilea, Estalia, Albion, and Araby besides just the Empire (not that even the Elves would actually know about Albion at this point AFAIK).

There's not much lore info on Cathay pre-TW, but I think TW indicates they use something called the Wu Xing Compass to create realmwide magical effects so that might be their alternative there. Other civs in that area (Ind, Nippon, etc.) we've still got sweet fuck-all for lore on so who knows there, but they aren't noted to be drowning in Dhar so they've got to be doing something with all their excess magic. Naggaroth... I assume they're much more comfortable with ambient Dhar than a sane civilization would be, but if they're not constantly overrun with naturally-occurring undead and such I'd expect they must be doing something with at least some of it besides just letting it pool everywhere. "How tf is Naggaroth supposed to actually work as a civilization" isn't exactly a subject that official GW lore ever really addresses, though.

Anyway yeah "how does the rest of the world deal with excess magic" is an interesting topic that I hope we continue to get more info on as/if TW continues to expand on the setting.
 
I like the Druchii. They're a fascinating trainwreck and a beautiful force of evil to read about. I am absolutely against treating with them in any actually serious capacity for things we care about, or even suggesting we might to the Asur.
 
People are conflating two different ideas.

Some people want to claim that the Druchii have made us an offer for the codes to connect to the Waystone Network, in order to get a better deal for the codes from Ulthuan.

Separately, a few people have raised the idea of redirecting the flow of magic from the Waystone Network to the Druchii, and/or claiming that we might do so.

As far as I'm aware the current proposal is entirely discussing the former.
This is an unfortunate consequence of the thread popularity, both in terms of activity and in terms of number of different people, which is why the discussion has been going around in circles for literally fifty pages. It's very difficult to track what the current different ideas under discussion are and who is proposing what. It's caused me to check out pretty hard, because folks are mostly just explaining and re-explaining their ideas to each other, but it is slow to die down because it's at a critical mass that feeds into itself. I suspect it will take at least multiple more days (and dozens more pages) to run its course, or until the next update gets posted and thread attention is forcefully redirected.

This sort of thing is what private discussions in smoke-filled rooms were invented for; I highly encourage folks who want to productively discuss potential plans along these lines to grab a few other people, either like-minded folks or people who disagree with you but whom you hope to persuade, and make use of SV's Conversation system, because sharply limiting the scope makes keeping track of what is being discussed and not getting sidetracked into endless cycles of people conflating A's idea to do X with B's idea to do Y much easier.
 
I feel like we only need to deploy the Naggeroth lie if Ulthuan refuses to give us the codes. Even if it pisses them off, because repairing the Waystone Nerwork is more important than good Ulthuani relations.
 
I feel like we only need to deploy the Naggeroth lie if Ulthuan refuses to give us the codes. Even if it pisses them off, because repairing the Waystone Nerwork is more important than good Ulthuani relations.
Would that make Ulthuan actually willing to give codes?
Or would it make them file us under "existential threat, eliminate asap"?
They probably can't spare the resources to actually do so, but it would be very inconvenient down the road, and not get us the code.
 
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