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Well in that example she could say she can't talk about the specifics. That would avoid the whole problem of needing to know what one side would ask for in exchange for their waystone knowledge.

Conversely dealing with just one side means that with no competitors the seller has all the advantage and can set the price as whatever the hell they want. If we're dealing with two sides though we may as well have the ability to perfectly lie since it grants a great advantage.
That falls flat because it just immediately makes it impossible for the other side to counter offer. Like, in that scenario, the msot logical conclusion to draw (given that they must accept that negotiations are taking place) are either that Mathidle is a patsy who hasn't been given enough info to properly negotiate or that it's a trick to drive up the opposition's already existing offer.

I don't think it does in this situation, considering it has to be prepared for in greater detail than I think Mathilde is really capable of right now. Like, if you want to lie to open negotiations with Ulthuan, wouldn't it just be easier to tell them the Project is complete but she wants their buy-in to double check everything and/or ensure the new parts of the Network link up to the Vortex rather than an overcomplicated game of double bluff?
 
Being able to link waystones to the greater network is nice and all.
But the main goal is to get all that magic out, and we can do that without them, it's just harder.
 
I feel like we only need to deploy the Naggeroth lie if Ulthuan refuses to give us the codes. Even if it pisses them off, because repairing the Waystone Nerwork is more important than good Ulthuani relations.
Probably a fairly smart and efficient way to go about it. Also lets us be the nice guys.

It slows us down a bit and would probably result in a shittier deal, but would save us an AP if it works out.
 
No reason we can't go with river leylines or one of the other potential transmission methods if we can't get leyline codes.
It makes it pretty hard to tie into the existing network, is my understanding. The best you can do is dump the magic in the general vicinity of an existing Waystone and let it collect it itself, but that seems like it'd have unfortunate side effects.
 
Would that make Ulthuan actually willing to give codes?
Or would it make them file us under "existential threat, eliminate asap"?
They probably can't spare the resources to actually do so, but it would be very inconvenient down the road, and not get us the code.

Then your plan to get the codes is to pray to the Asur and that they give it to us out of the good of their heart?

What if they ask to get all the magic from the new Waystones we build and a treaty from us to help defend the world, and by that I mean being obligated to aid them in their war against the Druchii?
 
Then your plan to get the codes is to pray to the Asur and that they give it to us out of the good of their heart?

What if they ask to get all the magic from the new Waystones we build and a treaty from us to help defend the world, and by that I mean being obligated to aid them in their war against the Druchii?
Honestly I'd be fine with that? The Druchii are definitely evil, and I'm not really invested in the idea of using Waystone power for a bunch of magical super-projects.
 
I would suggest we don't start with the Dark Elves thing. See how things go without mentioning that maybe, and then, if we aren't happy, and think it's worth the risk/potential hit to relations, then consider bringing up the Dark Elves thing.
 
Then your plan to get the codes is to pray to the Asur and that they give it to us out of the good of their heart?

What if they ask to get all the magic from the new Waystones we build and a treaty from us to help defend the world, and by that I mean being obligated to aid them in their war against the Druchii?
My plan is to keep working on the project, get more people onboard, and try to get Asur join as well, by proving us informed enough that it is in their best interest to join.
But if they don't, fine, we'll flush all the dhar into the ocean if we must.

Codes are nice to have, but not exactly critical to success.
 
That falls flat because it just immediately makes it impossible for the other side to counter offer. Like, in that scenario, the msot logical conclusion to draw (given that they must accept that negotiations are taking place) are either that Mathidle is a patsy who hasn't been given enough info to properly negotiate or that it's a trick to drive up the opposition's already existing offer.
Why does it make it impossible to counter offer? It's normal not to give the details of your deals out to another party. The base assumption would just be that she's not willing/allowed to divulge that information (further enforced by the Deceiver). Already telling them about the other party's deal is already quite a lot.

I don't think it does in this situation, considering it has to be prepared for in greater detail than I think Mathilde is really capable of right now. Like, if you want to lie to open negotiations with Ulthuan, wouldn't it just be easier to tell them the Project is complete but she wants their buy-in to double check everything and/or ensure the new parts of the Network link up to the Vortex rather than an overcomplicated game of double bluff?
I'm not sure if that makes sense as a lie. If you're asking them to double check things then they'll actually be looking at your system, they don't need to tell you squat.
 
Would that make Ulthuan actually willing to give codes?
Or would it make them file us under "existential threat, eliminate asap"?
They probably can't spare the resources to actually do so, but it would be very inconvenient down the road, and not get us the code.

As they lack the ability to wipe the Empire out, the fastest way to make us not an existential threat in such a headspace would be to give us the codes, so yes that may make them willing. Or they try to shut down the Project by throwing elf dad at us, and we have a big welcome back party thrown for him at the colleges as we instead utilize river leylines and tell him the Naggaroth thing was a hail-mary bluff we deployed because Ulthuan was being too gittish at the negotiation table.
 
Why does it make it impossible to counter offer? It's normal not to give the details of your deals out to another party. The base assumption would just be that she's not willing/allowed to divulge that information (further enforced by the Deceiver). Already telling them about the other party's deal is already quite a lot.


I'm not sure if that makes sense as a lie. If you're asking them to double check things then they'll actually be looking at your system, they don't need to tell you squat.
If you're trying to solicit offers, it's absolutely normal to be telling people what you're already getting. As for why it makes it impossible to counteroffer, imagine you get offered a new job and go to your boss looking for a raise to stay at your current one, not telling them what the other comapny is offering makes it impossible for them to match or exceed that offer because they don't know what it is. Or think of what Mathilde is doing (or pretending to do) as akin to an auction. An auction works because people offer more and more money, but they always know what the highest offered price at any given time is.

The idea there was just to get Ulthuan to buy into the project and send a person who could then be talked with one on one rather than trying to negotiate with a government as a whole. That said, the thrust of the idea was more "lie to Ulthuan about something else, rather than about negotiating with the Druchii" because I feel that'd be more effective.
 
Here's two Boney quotes about diplomacy with Ulthuan and Naggaroth:

Geopolitically, Ulthuan have only recently returned to the Old World and most of the influence they've developed has been in Marienburg, and the relationship between the Empire and Marienburg is already extremely strained, so they don't really have any levers to influence the Empire with. Even if they start rattling sabers there's not really a whole lot they can actually do, short of razing a few fishing villages and failed trading towns on the coasts of Nordland and Ostland that the Norscans already raze every other decade anyway. They don't really have any way to escalate things beyond that short of sailing up the Reik and besieging Altdorf, which would kick off War of the Beard 2 plus Crusades 2 at the same time and Marienburg would probably balk at and refuse to allow in the first place, or sailing up the Schaukel and besieging Tor Lithanel, which is something the Dwarves of the Golden Age couldn't manage.

So if they can't bring their sticks to bear, all they have is carrots. And even Mathilde wouldn't consider something like "we're pulling the plug on the Waystone thing because Ulthuan gave us back Elf Wizard Dad" a failure state.

You don't need to announce your engagement to a Druchii on facebook to do make use of information you get off them. 'I bribed a Druchii noble into telling me when their rivals would be sending raiding parties against the Old World so that they could be intercepted and destroyed' is something that literally any polity that engages in any sort of diplomacy would do if they had the opportunity, not some horrific betrayal that everyone would gasp and clutch at their pearls over. Yes, even Bretonnia.

The Dark Elves are duplicitous and willing to betray pretty much anyone if it's in their best interest. Everyone knows this. That means that everyone knows that when making a deal with the Druchii, you keep it in their best interest to follow through. The Dark Elves are not compulsively stupid, if the long-term benefits of an arrangement outweigh any short-term gains that could be had by betraying whoever they're dealing with, then they won't do it.

Diplomacy is not something you only do with your friends. Entire realms of theory and practice exist to maintain relationships and communications even mutually beneficial arrangements without trust ever having to enter into it.

To summarise my thoughts:

- Ulthuan can only influence the nature, perspective, and relationships of Old World nations by leveraging their wealth and knowledge into generous trade deals, AKA bribes. Any form of hostile aggression will get slapped down pretty quickly by everyone who wants to prevent the precedent of Ulthuan bossing nations around with military force. In short, Ulthuan can not threaten us, and they know it.

- Nobody cares if we do diplomacy with the Druchii, and indeed nearly every diplomat in the Old World would be shocked to learn we had shot the idea down, unless we had a compelling reason not to.

- Druchii only break their promises if doing so is more profitable than keeping them in the first place.

- Making a deal with the Druchii, and then breaking it because of a more profitable arrangement with Ulthuan, is 100% perfectly valid diplomacy, and we have the tools, skills, means, and opportunity to carry out the greatest diplomatic coup since the Battle of Black Fire Pass Magnus the Pious and the reunification of the Empire.
 
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I think trying to compare elven and dwarven reactions to the same situation kind misses the point of how elves are not dwarfs and neither are human.

Yeah trying something like this with Dwarfs would likely backfire, but if the Eonir think doing such thing could work then it stands to reason from the elven perpective dealing with Naggaroth isn't obviously going to instantly blow in our faces.
They are not the same, but they are also not entirely different. And the defining characteristic of the elves is their pride.

It's exactly the same thing Queen Marisith of Laurelorn is doing right now. She's literally playing the two factions against each other whilst dancing around the idea of committing to who is the real Phoenix King.

So either she's a blithering idiot who's childish attempts at politics is going to result in the complete extinction of her people, or maybe, just maybe, playing the two sides against each other is a valid form of diplomacy.
Why on earth would Marrisith's ploy result in the complete extinction of her people, unless you think Ulthuan is going to sail an invasion fleet up the Schaukel and burn Tor Lithanel to the ground?

Marrisith is Eonir, which means she has a cultural bias against the Asur, and is also in a much better negotiating position with them than Mathilde. That she's willing to play them against the Druchii tells us that she's a ruthless gambler who doesn't see a difference between the two and doesn't care at all whether she gets the information from Asur or Druchii.

I do. I do not want to empower the Druchii, so I do not want to take the high risk that telling the Asur we'll get the codes from the Druchii pisses them off so much that we are in fact forced to go to the genocidal slavers hat in hand.

I would instead prefer to first complete the Waystone project as far along as we can take it, get as much of the Old World together as we can, and then talk to them as a united front to force them to take us seriously.

Poorly. That being said, the fact that Mathilde is in many ways a subject of one of Thorgrim's subjects and that the Dawi are particularly prone to that sort of reaction does complicate this analogy. This is especially true as Mathilde has no official standing to inquire as to the secrets of the Throne of Power except possibly through the Waystone Project or for Belegar, and both the Empire and Belegar would most certainly not approve her trading with Skavenblight (for reasons relating to both the very recent sinking of a significant chunk of Nuln and the fact that the Karaz Ankor is already a valued trading partner and ally).

On the other hand, the Empire probably would approve trading with Druchii, this is information that is of direct relevance to her official duties, and Ulthuan is a neutral (to mildly hostile, given their support of Marienburg) party, so she has somewhat firmer ground to stand on here.
Quibbling over the exact minutiae of the people involved is missing the point. If you really cannot fathom the analogy you can substitute Mathilde for a Bretonnian Damsel demanding the secrets from Thorgrim because they need it for their own Waystone project, or else she'll go to the Chaos Dwarfs.
 
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If you're trying to solicit offers, it's absolutely normal to be telling people what you're already getting. As for why it makes it impossible to counteroffer, imagine you get offered a new job and go to your boss looking for a raise to stay at your current one, not telling them what the other comapny is offering makes it impossible for them to match or exceed that offer because they don't know what it is. Or think of what Mathilde is doing (or pretending to do) as akin to an auction. An auction works because people offer more and more money, but they always know what the highest offered price at any given time is.

The idea there was just to get Ulthuan to buy into the project and send a person who could then be talked with one on one rather than trying to negotiate with a government as a whole. That said, the thrust of the idea was more "lie to Ulthuan about something else, rather than about negotiating with the Druchii" because I feel that'd be more effective.
Not telling people the value of competing bids is a valid strategy that is often used. It's a classic tender strategy.

Having bidders privately sending their offers to the agent it means that the bidders are forced to offer the highest possible price they are willing to pay, knowing that they are competing against other bidders and unaware of what other bidders will offer during the process.
 
There's nothing forcing us to go to the druuchi at leylines (assuming we have functioning waystones and such), since we figured out river leylines. And again I hold we should only use the Naggaroth bluff if Ulthuan utterly stonewalls us.
 
I pointed out the flaws in that analogy because a flawed analogy is a poor representation of the situation it's meant to be analogous with. There is a difference between noting that two situations are not as close an analog as they're being presented as and why, and being unable to comprehend an analogy.
 
That's a massive overexaggeration.

I admit my knowledge of warhammer history is failing me here; I'm struggling to think of any diplomatic victories that are greater than or equal to "a massive trade deal that binds Ulthuan in friendship to the Empire, and enables the sharing of resources, knowledge, military aid, and the return of Elf Wizard Dad"? Magnus the Pious's reunification of the Empire and the establishment of the Colleges of Magic, maybe?

Yeah, that sounds more reasonable, I'll edit that in.

Why on earth would Marrisith's ploy result in the complete extinction of her people, unless you think Ulthuan is going to sail an invasion fleet up the Schaukel and burn Tor Lithanel to the ground?

That's my point—I don't think that. It was a dramatic worst case scenario that's quite implausible, highlighting that engaging in diplomacy with these two nations isn't going to result many of the bad ends some people have been suggesting.
 
It makes it pretty hard to tie into the existing network, is my understanding. The best you can do is dump the magic in the general vicinity of an existing Waystone and let it collect it itself, but that seems like it'd have unfortunate side effects.
Is that the case? In the update that didn't seem to be a significant issue, you just need to feed it into a Nexus with waystone channel markers.

Sarvoi and Cadaeth are, of course, no strangers to the Tarn of Tears, but you bring them along with Elrisse, Aksel, Tochter, and Niedzwenka there to illustrate part of your goal. "To use a river as a leyline requires three things," you say to them over the gurgling of the river. "Getting it in, getting it out, and keeping it from causing problems along the way. Now as we can see, getting it in is trivial - once it's introduced to flowing water, it flows with the water. I can think of a handful of enchantments or devices to achieve this just off the top of my head. Getting it out is trickier - this river uses a waterfall to release the magic back into the air, which works fine here but wouldn't really be an option for most rivers without obstructing the traffic that flows along it."

"Why not?" Elrisse asks. "Just have a canal that bypasses it for river traffic."

"You're right," you say after a moment of thought. "Actually, if we did it just south of Altdorf, river traffic could use the existing Weissbruck Canal to bypass it. Okay, that's one possible means of discharge. The one I had in mind was just putting down a series of Waystones like channel markers along the run of the river, however many are required for the amount of magic flowing, and then feed it from there directly into a Nexus. Probably the one at Altdorf, though it could also be set up at Nuln and Talabecland if there's some sort of bottleneck."

"The Lynsk could feed into Erengrad, and the Tobol into Castle Alexandranov," Niedzwenka says musingly. "And, of course, the Urskoy flows past Kislev City and into the Talabec."

"We theorized that L'Anguille, Bordeleux, and Brionne were nexuses," Tochter says. "So that's maybe two thirds of Bretonnia's rivers. Oh, and Gisoreux is downstream of most of the Grismerie, so that only leaves a few hundred miles of river that this method wouldn't work for."
 
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While it may have some positive effect in the short term, it completely destroys any chance of actual positive relations with Ulthuan and gives them completely justified reason to never trust you even a little.
Do you feel that the Empire should cut off relations with Laurelorn, given that they're even now entertaining Druchii ambassadors? We can't trust them ever again, even a little, after all.
 
That's my point—I don't think that. It was a dramatic worst case scenario that's quite implausible, highlighting that engaging in diplomacy with these two nations isn't going to result many of the bad ends some people have been suggesting.
So you think that "Asur are so pissed off they refuse to trade us the codes" and "The Asur are so pissed off that they sail up the Schaukel and destroy Tor Lithanel" are equally implausible?

Do you feel that the Empire should cut off relations with Laurelorn, given that they're even now entertaining Druchii ambassadors? We can't trust them ever again, even a little, after all.
The Druchii are not the ancestral enemy of the Empire who came very close to killing them all only a very short time ago. The Druchii are exactly that to the Asur.
 
There's nothing forcing us to go to the druuchi at leylines (assuming we have functioning waystones and such), since we figured out river leylines. And again I hold we should only use the Naggaroth bluff if Ulthuan utterly stonewalls us.
I definitely like this idea quite a bit. I think we can all agree we don't actually want to deal with Naggaroth. It's just that Ulthuan is filled with assholes who likely won't fairly deal with us.

Giving Ulthuan a chance by playing softball seems solid to me. It's certainly got its charm points.
+ Doesn't need to use the coin which frees it up for other actions.
+ Only 1 AP rather than 2 AP.
+ Potentially better relations with Ulthuan.

It weakens our bargaining power but in the end all we really want is to be able to connect up our waystones to the network (which we might not even need to negotiate for if we figure it our without aid). This is something that's in Ulthuan's interests as well so they should be inclined to give to us (or just send an elf to do it themselves for each waystone).
 
If it weren't for the articles I would suggest looking into making something to condense duar into wrapstone. Then we just need to find somewhere to bury tons upon tons of the stuff. Or some other way to dispose of it.
 
Not telling people the value of competing bids is a valid strategy that is often used. It's a classic tender strategy.

Having bidders privately sending their offers to the agent it means that the bidders are forced to offer the highest possible price they are willing to pay, knowing that they are competing against other bidders and unaware of what other bidders will offer during the process.
That only really works if the Asur believe that the Druchii can't or won't offer more than they can, and that they have no option to deal with the situation other than offering Mathilde the codes. You might get something out of them, but I don't know that it'd actually be what you're after instead of something like offering up withdrawing their support of Marienburg so teh Emprie kills any deal with the Druchii. Like, that would still be good for the Empire (although terrible for Marienburg) but it wouldn't actually get Mathilde the codes.

I admit my knowledge of warhammer history is failing me here; I'm struggling to think of any diplomatic victories that are greater than or equal to "a massive trade deal that binds Ulthuan in friendship to the Empire, and enables the sharing of resources, knowledge, military aid, and the return of Elf Wizard Dad"? Magnus the Pious's reunification of the Empire and the establishment of the Colleges of Magic, maybe?

Yeah, that sounds more reasonable, I'll edit that in.
Except a deal with Ulthuan wouldn't do most of that? Teclis may or may not come back (although I think it's unlikely) but it's certainly not going to encourage friendship and resources. Ulthuan would almost certainly view this as a one off trade, not as a future gateway to a closer relationship. The codes are dragged out of them so Mathilde doesn't trade with the Druchii, they get annoyed by that and then the deal is over.
 
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