Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Guys, maybe I'm missing something here but don't we still have the second greatest Runelord in the Karaz Ankor right here, on a project that the scope would be helpful for? Why don't we confer with him on which the Dawi would find more useful?
 
Completely separate from matters of Mathilde's personal reputation, I feel it is unwise to introduce a new source of false positives for hexwraith sightings. That's the sort of thing that leads to a real one going unreported.

- The Apparition shape can be any variation on a horse and rider, or any centauroid or insectoid shape. There's limited wriggle room on the size, it's not going to be able to get smaller than a horse but might be able to get slightly larger.
Curses, denied our rightful mammoth again.
Uhm... The Dämmerlichtreitter? There could (is most likely to) be some interference between it and the nascent Kami that we inadvertently created, but it might be for the better?
...Wait, when was that?

Yes, though the Orc would have to be on all fours.
I'm a tank I'm a tank I'm a tank I'm a tank
 
A scorpion could also work, with the 2 heads becoming the pincers (A scorpion doesn't really have much of a head). I think it might work pretty well offensively (3 points of attack), with the upside of being potentially rideable and not implying that it can fly when it can't.

@Boney is that viable?
 
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The only reason they might recognise the Mathilde option is that the Shadowsteed and Greatsword should be very distinctive at relatively long range.
So if you're allowing that the main way an onlooker might identify the Rider as Mathilde is by her accoutrements (shadowsteed, robes, sword) then why bother making it actually look like her, rather than a generic shadowy rider which is also mistakable for Mathilde at a distance?
 
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So one thing that should be noted about the spell that might make the Wraith option more appealing, note this line from the update:


Which could mean that they will take more easily to things that help generate that fear, which is something the Wraith appearance does. It uses a preexisting thing to up the fear generation aspect of the spell and thus will probably improve strength and stability as it plays more in with the Apparition's nature.

Generate fear in wizards... So we should make it look like the bursar? (I am partial to a dragon in witch hunter hat myself).
 
Cause originally Red Rider won on the idea of expanding the arsenal of our college. Adding our face to it just makes it fucking weird. And re-skinning is dangerous and waste of AP.
Knight of Judgement, Hexwraith or Spider options do everything we set out to do when we went into apparition binding, and we can codify them without particular issues with our colledge.

Adding Mathilde's face doesn't make it weird. It makes it enormously useful for Mathidle and situationally useful for the College.

Having it look like Mathilde is a bonus for the Colleges, as it opens up options for Frey Wizards to misdirect and confuse their opponents that a generic knight would not.

The Grey College should be in favour of the Mathilde Rider, not opposed.

Let's keep something in mind; this is a battlemagic spell.

This is not an "instant distraction" spell. This is not a good "make a distracting body double spell". This is not a spell you use when you want to sneak away and distract somebody; this is a spell you use when you want to send out a cavalry rider to kill a target.

So saying "we'll often want enemies to think it's Mathilde" is inaccurate, because we won't "often" use it at all, as it is battlemagic. And when we do use it, its primary usage will be to hunt down a target and kill it.

It can be used as a distraction or for confusion. But if you're doing that, or wanting that, then it's still not that great a distraction ultimately; because once they start fighting it, they'll notice it doesn't act like Mathilde, and if they stab it and it bleeds shadow or Aetheric Vitade instead of blood, or if it doesn't fight back with spells, or if its blade doesn't have the characteristics "screw everything I hit with this" effect of Branulhune? Or if it gets stabbed and disperses? Yeah, it's gonna be kind of a giveaway.

And if you wanted to use it as a distraction by placing it in a location and telling it to go off elsewhere rather than fighting, to lead people on a chase? Then you're using battlemagic to make a distraction instead of killing. In which case, maybe you would have been better off using Illusion to cast that; or using Doppelganger on yourself to avoid notice and sneak away.

There's also another possible issue here; namely, what if you did want to use a Rider in Red as a distraction... but you didn't want it to be mistaken for Mathilde?

Because that, too, is a possible viable use of an Apparition -- if you were going to use it for distractions or feints rather than to fight -- and which would work well if it had a weird or generic appearance, rather than a specific appearance of a specific person.

i.e. The ability to make it appear like Mathilde is kind of a very niche thing. If you're using a battlemagic spell as a distraction, it can probably work as a normal distraction too. You can also just be stealthy on your own, rather than using a tricky Apparition for it.

Making it look like Mathilde is mostly about being cheeky or wanting to do the Dammerlichtreiter legend, rather than about tactical utility, I feel like. It might be cool or neat, and that might be a reason for people to do it. But I think trying to sell it as "think of the common tactical applications" is wrong. Because that will not be a common tactical application.

This will not be a battle magic spell for Mathilde.

1)We've had it confirmed that we can make summoning spells for an Apparition that trigger the Staff of Mistery, so it would count as Fiendishly Complex at worst.

2) We've also had it confirmed that even battle magic grade Apparition spells are much less likely to miscast at the point of manifestation, as some of the risk is shifted to the capturing and binding stage, which we've succeeded at.

3) Not all apparent Apparition spells from other Colleges are Battle Magic at base.

This means we won't only be casting it in critical battles. Like RoW for Mathilde we'll be able to use it vastly more freely.

And as for the distraction. How do enemies know whether Mathilde has an arcane mark that makes her bleed silver mist rather than blood, or whatever. How does an enemy know the details about how her sword works - and we can possibly give a Red Rider a shadow sword which can pull similar tricks at some point if we develop it.

You're massively underestimating the tactical utility of being able to have a solid decoy of Mathilde riding around on the battlefield (or even on the street for things like counter ambushes).
 
That massively, massively reduces the value of the spell. Having it able to be manifested in a city when we want to fight there; which has happened, or fight alongside other soldiers without scaring them off or them having no idea how they'd actually do it makes it much less useful.

The Mathilde option just has so many massive advantages going for it. Particularly as a miscast driving very temporarily wizards into a homicidal rage is actually a known thing.
I'm not a fan of the Mathilde form, but I do think that a more tame-looking form being more useful when we dont want people panicking (at the wrong thing) is a good point.
Needs six limbs (and two heads?), and the shape of the apparition informs what it can do in a fight, and a Knight-with-swords-on-a-cat is probably more desdly than a six legged cat, or a cat that is grabbing swords with its prehensile tails.

Probably.
Why limit the appearance to something that actually exists? We could do a two tailed or six legged (insert animal) and not have to worry about associations with real things at all. I'm personally a far of a two tailed cat with bladed tails, or a two headed mini hydra.
How about taking a jaguar form and slapping two tentacles on its back? Tentacles are nice and versatile, and jaguars are big, strong, capable of climbing and swimming. Tentacles would let it grab things and more effectively hold off multiple foes at once, and they don't get in the way as easily as an entire extra body + bony arms would, making the summon much more viable in cramped spaces.
EDIT: Seeing as apparently "delivers a sword to the face" has to be a thing, maybe bladed tentacles? less good for nonlethally grabbing things but. still versatile weapons that dont get in the way. I suppose thats not too different from the "cat with two prehensile bladed tails" idea
 
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...Wait, when was that?
Not quite a Kami, but the legend that has begun around the Dämmerlichtreiter has become pervasive to the point of a good bit of Stirland making totems to us.

Edit.
"Oh no." Anton hurriedly reaches under his chair and produces a second, much smaller box, and thrusts it at you. "Here, open this instead of doing Wizard things." You take the lid off, and find yourself looking at a carved wooden figure on horseback. It's not very detailed and was obviously carved by hands unused to delicacy, but the robe, the hat, and the sword on its back make it clear who it's supposed to represent. "There's a few places in Nachthafen selling them. They're used as charms in the Hunter's Hills to ward off the Undead."

"They'd need all the help they can get." Anton Senior peers at the rider. "Who is that, anyway?"

"Some local legend, I think," Anton says with a shrug. "The seller tried to tell me some story about someone who supposedly killed Castle Drakenhof, but it didn't sound all that plausible."

You're not sure how you feel about apparently becoming a folk superstition, but you do know how you're supposed to pretend to react. "I suppose it could keep my vampire skulls company," you say with feigned disinterest, "though I'm not sure if there's room on the shelf."
 
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Way too variable. Closest you could do is make it look like a stereotypical Grey Wizard on a Shadowsteed with a face that looks like nobody in particular.
With other Apparition options you mentioned that the bound Apparition (like the Black Essence for instance) could be used to deliver some other effect. Couldn't we have the Red Rider "deliver" a simple illusion or a reverse Doppelganger or something like that? I guess it would make the spell harder, but it sounds like it might actually be worth it. And if I understood the mechanics of the spell correctly the additional difficulty should manifest during the binding, not the summoning, right?
Possibly the most confusing option we could choose to throw at our enemies, that.
Also massively disrespectful towards Dwarves in multiple ways at once.
 
I'm going to go with "Shadowy Witch Hunters" because just imagine the look on a veteran necromancer's face when a shadow wizard literally summons witch hunters to go after him out of nowhere.
 
With other Apparition options you mentioned that the bound Apparition (like the Black Essence for instance) could be used to deliver some other effect. Couldn't we have the Red Rider "deliver" a simple illusion or a reverse Doppelganger or something like that? I guess it would make the spell harder, but it sounds like it might actually be worth it. And if I understood the mechanics of the spell correctly the additional difficulty should manifest during the binding, not the summoning, right?

The Red Rider delivers a sword to the face. You're stuck with variations on that theme.
 
I am not sure how much time anyone's gonna spend on looking into faces of a Battle Magic murdermonster they summon to kill their enemies, but in any case - @Boney, can "Mathilde on a horse" version have Mathilde's attributes - which are, I guess, the hat, the greatsword and not being terribly tall - but a nondescript face?
 
Nazgul/Hexwraith/Mounted Wraiths would have hoods and cloaks and no visible faces. Dämmerlichtreiter is robes and a Witch Hunter hat.

And would the Dämmerlichtreiter aesthetic be like 'Very obviously Mathilde's build/face' or would it be something much more indistinct? I think if Grey Wizards went around summoning Mathildes in the future, it would get weird. In a disturbing way.

It'd definitely be her.

Would it possible to design the Dämmerlichtreiter so that it leaned more into "Terrifying Dusk Rider" aesthetic, without being identifiably a clone of Mathilde?
Ideally it would be something that anyone familiar with the Dämmerlichtreiter legend would immediately recognise, but otherwise would "just" be a terrifying shadowy rider that vaguely resembles a robed female with a Witch Hunter hat on a shadow steed.
Or am I getting into "just vote for Mounted Wraith" territory?


EDIT: I seem to have been Eshinned. This is essentially just agumentic's question and Boney as already answered it.
 
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@Boney Is the veto on having the Apparition copy its caster's appearance because we're adhering to the Gold Order's notes which do nothing of the sort, or is it an inherent limitation that whatever mechanism applies a skin is a static spell that can't be changed between casters?

I'm wondering about maybe in the future grabbing one of those spooky assassin maidens with the explicit goal of mimicking the caster, rather than attempting to cram it in as a last-minute idea for an entity we're already halfway through binding.
 
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I think the Cult of Morr would be more likely to take issue with binding one of Morr's servants, if that part is truth rather than folktale.
I think that part might be totally made up. Not in-universe, I mean by the wiki editor. I went and looked them up in 8E Vampire Counts and I can find somewhere between "fuck" and "all" about them serving Morr, and the cited Old World Bestiary reference is for wraiths in general and also doesn't mention Morr at all.

So yeah, I don't think anyone in-universe considers them servants of Morr.
 
I really like the giant cat visual. Could slapp some extra legs on it if it needs to have 6 limbs, don't think there are any problematic 6 limbed cats in the setting.
 
I'm going to go with "Shadowy Witch Hunters" because just imagine the look on a veteran necromancer's face when a shadow wizard literally summons witch hunters to go after him out of nowhere.
I feel like that is recipe for Witch Hunters getting twitchy, especially if in a miscast they go on a rampage. We don't want them knocking on our door with questions.
 
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