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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
I mean sure there could exist a class of beings that straddle biology and warp-stuff, but it would be odd that such beings would have to travel in ships, like normal squishy air breathers, indeed Deathfang noted that they were weak compared to the space-flight capable elder dragons.
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🤷‍♂️ Maybe they like space ships, or maybe they needed the ships to reach new worlds, like what are they gonna do walk through the Warp to get there? And get mugged by Daemons along the way probably, or travel in style in a ship that probably had methods of making sure the Daemons couldn't munch on their tasty tasty warpy bits.

I mean, maybe it's a mix of both. Some Gods are Old Ones who went full Warp being, some are creations of the Old Ones, some could be newly arisen beings like a spirit eventually becoming revered as a God or something.
Garlak said:
-snip-
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Huh, thinking about it like this. It could also explain why the Old Ones created the Winds and made sure they blew across the world, not only is it a way to have energy freely usable for spells and the like, but it's also a food/energy source for their people.
reignonyrparade said:
it SEEMS to be suggesting that Dwarves are a project based on Goblins. Which is weird. It's a weird suggestion.
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Boney said:
Resistant-ImportedTemplate-0 'Orks' strain
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If the Orks were imported, it means they existed elsewhere, whether the Old Ones found them out there and brought some here, or made them elsewhere and brought some is unknown. But if the Dwarves are based on Goblins, and if the Orks were found elsewhere and not made it could be that the Old Ones noticed how the Waagh did such a good job protecting Orks from Chaos and they were trying to reproduce it in another species for the war.

Edit: Or maybe they did make the Orks/Greenskins and want to reproduce something like the Waagh in a more controllable species?
 
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AzrielIlluminare said:
If the Orks were imported, it means they existed elsewhere, whether the Old Ones found them out there and brought some here, or made them elsewhere and brought some is unknown. But if the Dwarves are based on Goblins, and if the Orks were found elsewhere and not made it could be that the Old Ones noticed how the Waagh did such a good job protecting Orks from Chaos and they were trying to reproduce it in another species for the war.

Edit: Or maybe they did make the Orks/Greenskins and want to reproduce something like the Waagh in a more controllable species?
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This is a distinction I failed to notice in my initial attempt at that post but it seems like a distinction is being made between Orks and Orcs. Seems like the old ones grabbed up some If-Not-Literally-40k-Orks-Basically-40k-Orks, lab grew some with their own variations, which are Orcs, then eventually mad-scientisted themselves and brought in Ork Gods Gork and Mork as Orc Gods.
 
Well this is well short of 5000 words and there's still a lot to go over but here's some stuff anyway.

Ok, let's start from the top: the name of the update is a reference to 'Lord Ulric and the Making of the World' (henceforth LUMW), an Ulrican myth about the coming of Chaos. This seems to be about the same events, but from the viewpoint of Ranald, who also appears in that myth. In the LUMW myth Ulric and Ranald - who are BFFs and cousins - find out that Chaos is about to invade through the north pole so Ulric holds the gate while Ranald is sent to get help, but instead of doing that Ranald "ran far, far away, to the burning deserts in the south, and buried himself deep under the sand there". The last line of the update, about how digging into the sands of the desert makes no sense, ties the update into that myth even further and heavily implies that the viewpoint character is Ranald.

Now let's try and understand what's actually happening here:

Cd-3, who is probably Ranald, is described as an 'Autonomous Biological Weapon System Developer', and third in command of the city/continent Cd. The five continents and the five cities seem to be described as research facilities where the mortals are being developed as weapons against Chaos (hence 'Autonomous Biological Weapon'). Cd-3 is mentioned to have 'Deific Interface', Qt-DI3 'Tepok'. Note the Qt designation. Cd is described as being staffed by a five-person team:
  • Cd-1 is said to be "ruthless when They have to". This is either Taal or Rhya, or possibly both of them.
  • Cd-2 is described both as Cd-3's best friend and as a tiresome bore, so it's probably Ulric.
  • Cd-4 and Cd-5 are described as utterly loyal to Cd-1, but other than that we don't know anything about their possible identities. If Cd-1 is only one of Taal and Rhya then Cd-4 and Cd-5 could be the other one plus Mannan.
More on the staff of Cd in a bit.

At the start of the update Cd-3 and Cd-2 find out that the polar gates are failing, and Cd-2 sticks behind to hold the line while Cd-3 gets reinforcements. So far this is exactly like in LUMW, except that here it's explained that the plan isn't to stop Chaos (I guess that's considered a lost cause) but to use that time to annihilate the mortal races so they won't get corrupted by Chaos. Cd-3 loves humanity and the world in general and so considers a bunch of alternatives, namely running to one of the other 4 cities and mounting a defense that doesn't involve ending the world. This gives us some insight into the other five cities, but I also want to note that we can deduce which city Cd-3 actually went to from the upsides and downsides listed for each options, because some of the listed outcomes clearly didn't happen and some did:
  • The mortal races weren't all killed so obviously Cd-3 did not go back to Cd (also fits with LUMW, since Ranald is blamed for running away)
  • The Zl diaspora happened, and Gork and Mork are clearly present in the world, so Cd-3 did not go to Zl
  • The Shartak (Dragon Ogres) were corrupted by Chaos, so Cd-3 did not go to Cl
  • The first Daemon Prince did rise, so Cd-3 did not go to Iz
Therefore Cd went to Qt. And indeed, at least one of the outcomes of that choice confirms it further:
Boney said:
+ Will allow the use of their secondary DIP to directly battle the forces of the Eternal Enemy.
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The elf pantheon did directly battle Chaos at the polar gates according to legend, so that fits. It's also possible that this:
Boney said:
? The unruly underlings of Qt may take the opportunity to loot the other Research Continents instead of helping.
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refers to the elves colonizing the other continents, which is also a thing that happened, but I'm a lot less sure about it. The elves are described at pets, not underlings, so I'm not sure who this could refer to.

Now let's get more into what this story does or doesn't tell us about the Gods. Cd-3 described a 'Deific Interface' into which they can 'load into'. There's also a mention of 'mantling' Gork and Mork. This appears to suggest that the characters designated by [Two Letter City]-[Number] are not exactly identical to the Gods, but instead are, uh, wearing the Gods? Piloting Them like divine mecha?

The story also says that there's two pantheons - the Iz pantheon, which is the original one and seemingly the pantheon the Slann and the Lizardmen worship, and a Qt pantheon that was developed for the elves 'for some reason'. Cd-3 doesn't seem to know why this was done, but Deathfang's story provides a possible answer:
Boney said:
In the end, the greatest creation of the cunning beings were those they created by accident. With the great machines sealing the world against the Ruinous Powers, the combined beliefs of their creations had accumulated and grown into an entirely new form of life.
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So according to Deathfang it was an accident. Something about the elves caused the elf pantheon to arise naturally. Maybe the team at Qt told everyone it was on purpose to save face?

Anyway, a very interesting point is that when Cd-3 talks about their Deific Interface they mention that it's "Qt-DI3 'Tepok". So Cd-3 is attempting to mantle an elf God, rather than a Lizardmen God. Why? Well, possibly for the same reason Cd-3 eventaully goes to Qt: because Cd-3 loves Qt-3 and wants to hang out with Them. Cd-3 mentions at the start of the update that they love texting Qt-3 over the G-Web, which is 99% the Geomantic Web which the Old Ones cannonicly used for communication before the Coming of Chaos.

I'm going to stop here because I see a bunch of new posts were written while I was typing this so I'll take a short break to go over what everyone else is saying.
 
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I think people assuming continuity of identity are going way too far. Nothing we've seen so far contradicts that the gods may be echoes based on the Old One's' actions, or the deific interfaces that became sapient or others picked up.

Or simply that stories about the Old Ones actions were later assigned to the various gods as often happened when legends were absorbed by new cultures encountering them.

My default assumption for any legend passed down through hundreds of generations of oral history is that it can be assumed to have no probative value at all, but that it may possibly have been inspired by folk memory of something that happened, even if that something is very different. See flood myths not meaning the Abrahamic God told Noah to build a boat for the animals, but that there possibly was a major flood in the Middle East in the Bronze Age.

Similarly, that there may have been a leader in Sub-Roman Britain who resisted the Saxons and inspired the Arthurian romances doesn't mean that King Arthur is alive and sleeping in Avalon to come to Britain's rescue in its hour of greatest need.

Also; Ranald stealing someone's identity and lying about how he's actually someone with more importance than he has in order to gain power is very on-brand.

AzrielIlluminare said:
Huh, thinking about it like this. It could also explain why the Old Ones created the Winds and made sure they blew across the world, not only is it a way to have energy freely usable for spells and the like, but it's also a food/energy source for their people.
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From other sources, they didn't. The Winds are a result of the warp gates exploding. Previously trickles of magical energy were supplied were needed via the Geomantic Web, not allowed to blow freely across the world.

We don't even know if that magic was converted into something like the Winds, or if was simply raw AV that was transported around.
 
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AzrielIlluminare said:
🤷‍♂️ Maybe they like space ships, or maybe they needed the ships to reach new worlds, like what are they gonna do walk through the Warp to get there? And get mugged by Daemons along the way probably, or travel in style in a ship that probably had methods of making sure the Daemons couldn't munch on their tasty tasty warpy bits.

I mean, maybe it's a mix of both. Some Gods are Old Ones who went full Warp being, some are creations of the Old Ones, some could be newly arisen beings like a spirit eventually becoming revered as a God or something.
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We have at least two examples of gods that are very unlikely to have anything to do with the Old Ones:
  • Sigmar who is only connected to anything Old God like by the sign of the Twin Tailed Comet
  • Manaan whom we have a decent indication is not a proper god at all, but rather the spirit of the World Ocean and proportionally strong in his domain due to the sheer size of it
 
NuclearConsensus said:
Another realization. Three of the dwarves' biggest enemies, the greenskins, the skaven, and the dawi zharr, can all be traced back to the Zl team. No wonder Karag Dum were so wary of them. That, plus this description:
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Let me correct myself, not just three, but four. Dragons are likely the foe of dwarves as well thanks to Zl. The mention of Radixashen led me to this:
Boney said:
Urmskaladrak died not at the hands of Daemons, but errant creations that he had attempted to recapture.
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From Deathfang's story time. Since the five dragons, of which Urmskaladrak is one, were described as the leaders of the dragons, it's likely other drakes followed Urmskaladrak in attempting to recapture the dwarves, and thus came into conflict with them.
 
reignonyrparade said:
This is a distinction I failed to notice in my initial attempt at that post but it seems like a distinction is being made between Orks and Orcs.
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Huh, yeah that is a thing. And totally not horrifying at all that there might be who knows how many Orks out there now, especially if they're full-on 40K style Orks, something like the Beast showing up on Mallus is... nightmare inducing.

Also speaking of the Known World and it's name Mallus, if Be'lakor is a traitor Old One, he might've actually been the one to name the planet like he claims to have.
 
If the gods are the deific interfaces, multiple different Old Ones could have used those interfaces at different times to interact with the mortal races.

Sometimes Qt-X may have used the interface called Asuryan, and sometimes Qt-Y may have. If they began as constructed interfaces there's no need for continuity of identity.

If the interfaces later developed sapience and independent will but retained the memories of 'their' previous actions, which they may have had to rationalise a consistent personal narrative and identity out of, it may have resulted in some quite strange characters, as they would have memories of having abrupt character shifts.
 
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mathymancer said:
Cd-3 loves humanity and the world in general and so considers a bunch of alternatives, namely running to one of the other 4 cities and mounting a defense that doesn't involve ending the world.
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I wonder if Ranald did more than just running to Qt, but actively interfered in the attempts to destroy the mortal races, and got some of the Old Ones killed by doing that.
Boney said:
"The short of it is that the Widow and Her siblings were once much more than four, before Salyak had your Ranald interfere." She sighs, and closes her eyes again. "The details are ugly, and not to be shared with those outside Their service. In the aftermath They found us, the Gospodar. So perhaps it was for the best. But amends are still required."
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The whole Kislev Pantheon were all-but-confirmed as Ellinili, so they're kinda not Old Ones.... And Ranald killed most of the Ellinili because Shallya asked him to.... And if Isha is Shallya... I got nothin.

Well anyway, Manhavok and the council of Manhorak are unlikely to be Old Ones, and Halétha and her mystery sister (you know what I'm going balls to the wall and saying it's Sigmar) are only Old Ones because their parents are/were/will be/could have been.
 
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reignonyrparade said:
Having actually gone through it for everything, it SEEMS to be suggesting that Dwarves are a project based on Goblins. Which is weird. It's a weird suggestion. Possibly that would be the origin of "why do dwarves have their own weirdo pantheon and not generally DIRECTLY fall to chaos" because Orcs ALSO have their own weirdo pantheon and don't generally directly fall to chaos, but apart from that and being small, it's hard to see much else as a connection.
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Nah, the Dwarves are Adaptive/Resistant/Obedient-1, which Zl didn't want to discuss, probably because they were being rebellious or trying to escape. I don't think they have anything to do with the Greenskins directly, except maybe getting a headstart on hating them from being forced to live in proximity.
They have the same Keywords as Goblins, but their city designation is presumably Zl- and not Cl/Zl-, as they seem to be solely a product of Zl. Humans and Elves also have the same Keyword, only differing in city designation, so that appears to be enough to differentiate them.
Boney said:
There were even whispers of an Adaptive/Resistant/Obedient-1 strain being worked on down in Zl, though for some reason they were very reticent to discuss the matter over the G-Web.
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xamaplak said:
The whole Kislev Pantheon were all-but-confirmed as Ellinili.... And Ranald killed most of the Ellinili because Shallya asked him to.... And if Isha is Shallya...

Well anyway, Manhavok and the council of Manhorak are unlikely to be Old Ones, and Halétha and her mystery sister (you know what I'm going balls to the wall and saying it's Sigmar) are only Old Ones because their parents are/were/will be/could have been.
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Old Ones had wives in the side story, there is no reason why they could not already have children. It could be that Haletha was the daughter of Ranald and Shaylla (or the entities that would become them/come to echo them) and was there for the terraforming.
 
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Boney said:
Power fluctuations make doing any work impossible, the G-Web has crashed so you can't even fill your day with talking to your delightful counterpart in Qt, and for some reason you can't even load into your Deific Interface, Qt-DI3 'Tepok'.
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Boney said:
The Polar Gates are tearing themselves apart, malicious instructions interlaced with Daemonic malice tearing through systems they should never have been able to even dream of entering.
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It seems pretty suspicious that the Lizardmen god-puppets became unavailable at exactly the same time Chaos gained access to Polar Gate systems "they should never have been able to even dream of entering." Given Chaos's typical modus operandi, one has to wonder if this is a case of sabotage. And actually, this bears out in the options:
Boney said:
+ Will prevent the ascension of the traitor Iz-1 as the first Daemon Prince of this world.
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Iz-1, Belakor, is over in Lustria, and is described as being a traitor. I suspect that this isn't a last-minute turning of coat by Belakor, but that he's already a traitor, and is responsible for the sabotaging of both the Lizardmen DIs and giving Chaos access to the Polar Gates.
 
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