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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Redshirt Army said:
... would people be willing to go for a compromise where we put the Gambler on Windherding the Speculum? It would mitigate the risks of death or arcane mark, and could help give Mathilde a breakthrough which could then be applied to the Foundation action. Thoughts?
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I'd vote for it. Increasing the chance of getting an item at Cataclysm level feels worth it in my opinion.
 
Retrueno said:
Honestly I am not sure what could the Cult of Ranald bring to the table, in fact, I am not sure what could any Cult bring the table (except political support I guess).
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The Halethans have proved extremely useful at every stage of the project. I imagine that there's something in the Cult of Ranald's pockets that could be pulled out and put to purpose. It'd be a gamble as to what, though, and we're not in any need of a gamble at this point.
 
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Lustrian Rubbings)
-[X] Waystone: Mapping (Tilea, Estalia) (Johann)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings , Windfall paper, EIC action
-[X] Eike Study: Study tradecraft with the Hochlander

See here for my reasoning. There's a bunch of pretty similar plans going around that are also pretty much fine, and if something vastly different gets the lead they'll probably get my approval vote.
 
@LawsOfRobotics asked me to post his plans because the vote opens right around when he needs to be getting ready for work. I have done so, with minor formatting tweaks because of what I'm like as a person.

[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] The Gambler
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Cloak of Flashy Escapes, Shadowcloak/Dazzling Brightness)
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Hunt an apparition)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, Windfall paper, Windherder enchanting, EIC negotiation
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes and Ranald
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Cloak of Flashy Escapes, Shadowcloak/Dazzling Brightness)
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
--[X] The Gambler
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Attempt to create a liminal realm)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, Windfall paper, Windherder enchanting, EIC negotiation
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

These are my favorite plans, the first version in particular. It's got the Apparition capture, Windherding, FINALLY chipping away at our artifact backlog (which we haven't touched since T35!), AV research, the last major component of Waystones, rolling out Tributaries to one of our key allies and bulwarks against chaos, the fog bridge, the fucking Windfall paper and a good character moment for Egrimm, and BÖÖK. I love plans that move a ton of our goals forward simultaneously, and this one definitely does that. And the planmaker made one hell of an effortpost in support of it:
LawsOfRobotics said:
Here are the explanations for my choices, spoilered to avoid wall-o-text:
There has been some discussion in the thread about what action to put The Gambler on. I personally feel that it contributes the most to the Apparition Hunting action, while others feel that it is more valuable on the creation of a Liminal Realm. My preference is mild enough that I can support either option, so I have created a plan for each. For reference I will attempt to summarize my undertanding of the arguments for each position:
For The Gambler on Appartion Hunting:
  • I expect there to be multiple good opportunities for The Gambler to activate. There will be research to learn how to contain it, there will be investigation to track one down, and there will be risk in actually confronting and capturing it.
  • If we do well on a plan to capture and contain an appartion, we will likely have less time pressure to follow up on the action, and bind the appartion.
For The Gambler on Creating a Liminal Realm:
  • We don't want to get a daemon again.
  • Ranald might be able to help because he could be watching from the Aethyr side.
  • If the Liminal Realms action fails again we might not get a third chance.
Let me know if there are arguments I should add for either side. While I prefer putting the coin on Appartion Hunting, I made two plans so the thread can decide.
There are several reasons why I feel we should do Apparition Hunting. The first is simply that I think it is interesting, and a good counterpoint to our visiting the Gold College last turn. We have seen what was made of the artifacts that we used to purchase the knowledge and now it feels fitting that we finally get around to using the secret we purchased. Also I feel that it is the best next major self-improvement action that we can embark on now that we have finished Branarhune.

The short version is that it is the Apparition that most clearly fills a combat niche we want filled (tanky backup on demand) and I have not seen a detailed plan for how to turn a different apparition into a similarly capable weapon. It also fits our theme pretty well. We could instead use Dark Hounds if we don't mind being obvious about copying the Golds, but I have not seen much support for that. I have made several attempts to explore ideas for other apparitions and been unsuccessful in my opinion. This is best summarized by one of my previous posts:
My best answer for this is:
  • It sounds fun
  • Max is a patient nerd who seems like he would be good at this
  • We just bought a bunch of books to be better at this
  • Some people seem to think it might have results that help with Waystones. I will let others make this argument
I would like to try Windherding again, because we didn't realize the full potential of it on our last attempt due to the poor roll. The trickiest part is what we could make that is worth the effort and risks. I came up with the idea for the Cloak of Flashy Escapes many turns ago, but the idea feels more relevant than ever.

The core idea for the Cloak of Flashy Escapes (name suggestions welcome) is a riding cloak that combines Shadowcloak and Dazzling Brightness. It is intended as a useful escape/utility item for Eike that is reasonable for us to use as Windherding practice because it combines 2 Relatively Simple spells. There would be one quick incantation to activate both the dazzle and Shadowcloak, so that the wearer can flashbang pursuers and then easily hide. There would be separate incantations to activate just Shadowcloak for hiding, or activate just Dazzling Brightness for the flashbang. It feels like a good tool for helping keep Eike safe, without giving her OP magic items, and it fits with the Shadow Rider theme that we would apply to a Rider in Red. It would also be a good action for Eike to participate in, because she would be learning the basics of Enchanting at the college, then seeing our attempts at breaking new ground in the field. It might also be a good chance for her to improve her windsight and start learning the Windherding skill.

The Cloak of Flashy Escapes was confirmed to be a viable Windherding item by Boney here.
This is one of the last 2 AV actions we have left. I would like to get it done this turn so that we can create the Orbs and write the AV Book together next turn. We cannot safely create the Orbs because the Room of Calamity is currently out of action, but it has been confirmed that it is reasonably safe to try and create a Liminal Realm somewhere else:


This is the source of the plan name.
Examining the Foundation feels fairly obvious, as the last major piece of the Waystones left to examine.

As for Kislev tributaries they feel like they are a good counterpoint to foundations. We would be doing one theoretical action with the Foundation, so it makes sense to do a practical action to expand the network and use what we have developed as well. It also does a good job of balancing which project members are on which action. As for why Kislev tributaries specifically, Boney had this to say about the purpose of the tributary actions:

The Kislev Tributaries do a good job at the "shor[ing] up the Waystone Network where it's needed" and "build[ing] up a proven track record to help with future negotiations" parts.

As for why I have assigned different members to each action:
For Foundations I think Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi are obvious. Egrimm is also an excellent human enchanter, and Elrisse knows lots of potentially relevant secrets. Niedzwenka, Zlata seem less likely to be useful, but I don't think it is too bad to put them on both actions, and their perspectives from differing paradigms might be useful.

I also explained my thinking about leaving out the rest of the project in this post, but the key point is that adding all those people in just makes the action more complicated, and harder for Boney to write, while not adding much in my opinion.

For the Kislev Tributaries I am including all those who worked on the Tributaries so they can share their knowledge.
This has been discussed a lot recently, but the short version is that I think it is the most impactful action we could take, more so than getting rich or spying on the fissure in the Cult of Ulric. There is also this bit that Mathymancer recently reminded the thread about:

There is clearly a desire for the bridge from both the Elves and Middenland. Taking this action might get us interesting interactions with Queen Marrisith and Todbringer to work out the details.
Here is Mathymancer's helpful post discussing the pros and cons of each library option. I chose the GUoN, because I want maximum böök, and I want to get started on it now in case it is going to take time to copy.
Because I really wanted to last turn, and it is even more appealing as a Serenity action
For the Lustrian books and rubbings study: Because it is a research action she can contribute to as a real participant.
For the Windfall paper: Because I am hoping that the discussion on the observations of the winds with different types of windsight helps Eike better understand her intuitive windsight. I also want to see her interaction with Egrimm.
For Windherding and the Enchanting class study: Because I want her to observe our work on Windherding, especially as the item is for her.
For the EIC negotiation: Because I want her to see our solution to getting charcoal from Middenland to Laurelorn, and I want to keep up her connection to the EIC as part of one of our most consequential uses of it.

I feel these are the most important actions for her to participate in and I tried to pick actions where I think it will be easy for Boney to write her into the scene. I think 4 actions and a study is not too much for Eike. On the two turns we have had her she has been on 3 actions + a study and she should have 6 AP. Additionally I think her participation in the EIC negotiation, and on Windherding will be fairly short, so I don't think it will be too much for her narratively. I don't want to bring her along to fight a Rider in Red, or to create a Liminal Realm in case either goes sideways and we need to run. And on the Waystone actions I feel like she would just be tagging along, without gaining much.
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I also intend to approval-vote a bunch of other stuff that follows this same general outline, and then winnow down to my favorites as the voting shakes out and we know the top contenders. I imagine a ton of variants are going to get made, for example, as people go "I like this plan but prefer this other Apparition" or "I like this other plan but want the Coin over here," etc. So, uh, watch this space for further developments.

[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success + Ranald Liminal
[X] Plan Red Rider Rushes Forward
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike
 
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[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders
-[X] MAX: Study: Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider In Red)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Stat-Swapping Mirror)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windfall Observations, with Egrimm as Primary Author
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences.
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library. (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings, Windherding, Windfall Paper
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

Redshirt v3.14159, but with Rider in Red.

[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes and Ranald
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope; Ranald brand footwear.
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike & Seviriscope, no speculum
 
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Derpmind said:
Could we just not go for a Battle Magic level effect when experimenting with our twice-as-dangerous enchanting technique? Please? There's nothing stopping us from getting another Arcane Mark or an even worse miscast here, especially with trying for such a powerful enchantment. We don't get to just "do some cool things "in a frictionless environment here, a bad failure with this level of magic could give Mathilde anything from a cripplingly bad Arcane Mark up to outright killing her. Magic isn't a toy!
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Going to be honest, this post made me actually interested in voting for it rather than the passivity interested in it as an idea.

Because I hate this argument. Arcane marks, bad miscast, death… it's called being a wizard.

We have taken all the Major infrastructure and safety actions we can take, we frankly have one of, if not the, safest places in the world to create and practise magic, far far more them most of the people that have made all of the major spell in the setting.

We take major breaks between such actions as well.

And we always have the seed in hand(pun intended) and a blast wall in every tower.

Find a better argument than 'miscast/arcane mark scary' please, because at this point we are well past the point that a self respecting wizard researcher can let that stop them.
 
I will say I liked Redshirt last plan a lot, and I am not very worried about the danger of designing the speculum, because boney coments makes me fell this is going to be a project and the first action will be mostly designing, but I can't accept not getting Red Riders so I made a variation that does that.

[X] Plan Red Rider Rushes Forward
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Stat-Swapping Mirror )
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Hunt an apparition)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings , Windfall paper, EIC action
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

Also aproval voting:
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope
 
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[X] Plan Clearing the Backlog and Believing in Eike
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact: Lustrian Rubbings
-[X] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Kurgan weapons
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hunt an apparition with a member of WEB-MAT (Johann, Riders in Red)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Everyone)
-[X] Attempt to finish off the Grey College spellbook by learning Shadow of Death, Cloak Activity, and the MAPP
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windfall Observations, with Egrimm as Primary Author
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences
-[X] Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library. (University of Nuln)
-[X] Eike Actions: Kurgan Weapons, Capturing an Apparition, EIC action
-[X] Eike Study: Figure out the politics going on inside the Cult of Ulric and write a detailed report about it.
-[X] The Gambler: Eike Study

Since people want to wait for the Room of Calamity to create the Orbs I removed the action and have us finally learn the rest of the Spellbook.

When it comes to the Eike action I'm intractable though. I really want to see how she does.
 
[X] Plan Variant X
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact: (Lustrian Rubbings)
-[X] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: (Kurgan enchanted weapons)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata, Cadaeth, Aksel)
-[X] Tributary: Dreaming Wood (Hochland) (Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands
-[X] Eike Actions: KAU action, Lustrian Rubbings, EIC Action
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting (Mathilde pays 1 CF for lessons)
 
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[X] Plan Red Rider Rushes Foward

Of those put forward, I like this one. I expect to add votes for others as we go on, though. I'm especially ambivalent about where to put the coin even within this one plan.
 
[X] Plan Redshirt v4.53236
[X] Plan Daughters of Lakes and Shadows
[X] Plan Daughters of Lakes and Shadows with AV
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope, Foundation Corrected

A lot of Voters I respect are advocating hard for Whispering Darkness over Red Riders, but I don't really know why it just doesn't grab me as much. Maybe I'm just a Jock Mathilde truther.
 
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[x] Plan Redshirt v3.14159
-[x] MAX: Study: Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands
-[x] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Whispering Darkness)
-[x] EGRIMM: Windherding (Stat-Swapping Mirror)
--[x] COIN: The Gambler
-[x] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[x] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[x] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[x] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windfall Observations, with Egrimm as Primary Author
-[x] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences.
-[x] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library. (Grand University of Nuln)
-[x] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings, Windherding, Windfall Paper
-[x] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)
 
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike
-[X] MAX: Study: Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider In Red)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Stat-Swapping Mirror)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windfall Observations, with Egrimm as Primary Author
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences.
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library. (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings, Windherding, Windfall Paper, EIC Action
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

The Red Rider variant of Redshirts plan, but Eike is also on the Fog Road action.
 
Gavin Prince said:
There really isn't a good candidate for an Ulgu+Hysh item that would replace one of Mathilde's slots. One idea was to get Max to learn enchanting, then involve him and Eike in getting a Guard of Steel/Mathilde's Mastered Aetheric Armor Robes for Eike to take herself.
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If we're looking for an actually useful Ulgu-Hysh Windherding project, and aren't concerned about jumping straight to difficult projects, we should make the Seviroscope. It's literally translating Mathilde's Windsight to visible light - Hysh - it's something we actually want to make, and it'd probably less difficult than literal Cataclysm magic.

(I'm 2 pages back and trying to catch up in between bits of work, so apologies if someone's already had this idea, etc.)
 
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