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Still a long time ago though.
It's really not, in the medieval/renaissance era, even before taking into account the fantasy qualities that make it even less so.

I'm perfectly happy selling the tributaries to the Bretonnians, or having them pay to join the Project, to the long-term betterment of all, but it'd be a mistake to just give them away.
And I do think it's likely Bretonnia would reward us one way or another either by providing researchers for the Waystone Project (which was the offer they they made us; show them progress and they'd be interrested in participating) or something else.
We have no reason to believe this. They're a large and powerful nation, not an individual stereotype of a knight in shining armour. If we want them to give us something in exchange for access to the Waystone Project or its fruits, the way to do that is to be successful so these things are attractive to them, and to then negotiate explicit trades for them. As Boney has indicated in the past.

EDIT: Removed the start of an old comment I abandoned, like, yesterday. Whoops.
 
I find that there is always a a logical regression to 'the forces of order' when thinking about warhammer fantasy. Because it's easier, and frankly, nicer and happier to think like that.

That 'what benefits one benefits all, making one stronger makes everyone stronger, etc etc'.

But it's not true. Even if players (and some people in the setting like Mathy) want it to be true.

The same way Orcs, Chaos and Vampires arn't automatically friends before they are 'the bad guy factions.' Humans, dwarfs, elves and other humans' are not automatically friends too.

At its most basic, every faction in the old world wants to expand, the more livable land you control, the safer, wealthier, happier your people are.

But there is usually someone else living there because none fucked up land is at a premium.

That's not taking into account opportunities, bad blood, miscommunication, ambition, evangelism etc etc.

A significantly powerful Bretonnia compared to its bordering neighbours would absolutely attack them and expend to a new equilibrium or even take them over completely if possible. The same way the empire would, and the newly revitalised Dwarfs are trying in The border princes. (Just that the dwarfs are liked by us and the BPs are inconsequential/assholes so we don't see it that way.) or the Tilnas make a sport of it etc etc.

None of the nations what to let one of the others get stronger unless they are also getting stronger or even getting ahead.

That's the reality of how the 'nations of order' think.

Do you have a point beside that politics is a zero-sum game in your opinion?

Sure nations might go to war if they perceive weakness in their neighbours and they have a casus beli but it's far from a given. You just have to look to our own world to see that regroupement of nations that work together towards a common goal in cooperation tend to live much better lives than regroupement of nations where the big dog keeps others in line by keeping their neighbours miserable and weak.

Especially if there is a common foe. And in the warhammer setting there are tons of common foes that "reasonnable" nations can work together against greenskin, drucchi... or, you know, Chaos, especially since we think another Everchoosen is coming. We don't need eternal peace, even just a framework to get a headstart when the next Everchoseen shows up would be nice.
 
I think we wouldn't like what they'd ask of us... Or if the offer seems reasonable then it'd be a serious poisoned chalice one way or another

I guess so, but at the same time I'm struggling to think what that "something we wouldn't like would be". Because at the end of the day we're literally separated by an entire ocean.

Honestly I feel like a reasonable offer would be more likely not because it's a poisonous chalice but because it's probably the best they could get.
 
Do you have a point beside that politics is a zero-sum game in your opinion?

Sure nations might go to war if they perceive weakness in their neighbours and they have a casus beli but it's far from a given. You just have to look to our own world to see that regroupement of nations that work together towards a common goal in cooperation tend to live much better lives than regroupement of nations where the big dog keeps others in line by keeping their neighbours miserable and weak.

Especially if there is a common foe. And in the warhammer setting there are tons of common foes that "reasonnable" nations can work together against greenskin, drucchi... or, you know, Chaos, especially since we think another Everchoosen is coming. We don't need eternal peace, even just a framework to get a headstart when the next Everchoseen shows up would be nice.
we argue this point because we know this world. they are fighting all the time. your argument doesnt work against hard evidence of the world history we know.
 
Do you have a point beside that politics is a zero-sum game in your opinion?

Sure nations might go to war if they perceive weakness in their neighbours and they have a casus beli but it's far from a given. You just have to look to our own world to see that regroupement of nations that work together towards a common goal in cooperation tend to live much better lives than regroupement of nations where the big dog keeps others in line by keeping their neighbours miserable and weak.

Especially if there is a common foe. And in the warhammer setting there are tons of common foes that "reasonnable" nations can work together against greenskin, drucchi... or, you know, Chaos, especially since we think another Everchoosen is coming. We don't need eternal peace, even just a framework to get a headstart when the next Everchoseen shows up would be nice.
I don't think in zero-sum game, thank you very much. Please don't accuse me of that again.

I was just pointing out that the thinking, history and culture of the 'reasonable nations' shows that the idea of 'nations of order' is an oversimplification of the relationships between them that they, themselves, don't adhere too.

and that they don't necessarily want the others to get stronger them or would not take advantage if they get ahead.

they are fantasy versions of quite aggressive historical periods, I'm just treating them like so.
 
I don't think in zero-sum game, thank you very much. Please don't accuse me of that again.

I was just pointing out that the thinking, history and culture of the 'reasonable nations' shows that the idea of 'nations of order' is an oversimplification of the relationships between them that they, themselves, don't adhere too.

and that they don't necessarily want the others to get stronger them or would not take advantage if they get ahead.

they are fantasy versions of quite aggressive historical periods, I'm just treating them like so.

I didn't even mention the concept of 'nations of order' and you used that to attack the idea of collaboration.

The way I see it, tributaries are not a huge threat to us, on the contrary. To make a real world parallel, to me the Waystone Network is a way to fight a global threat (as well as more local nuisances). Even if nations might go to war everybody wins by doing things for the greater good such as preserving the ecosystem, fighting climate change, etc.

Nobody wins (except chaos) is the Waystone Network isn't repaired and keeps degrading. Sure we could do politics about it but I think it's not worth it. Maybe allowing Bretonia to repair their tributaries as soon as possible will strenghten them in the long term but frankly it just doesn't matter that much compared to the global threat of a failling Waystone Network. And it's not like the Empire doesn't also have the technology to repair their own tributaries so I really don't see why we should be so afraid of a little good will that benefits everyone.

EDIT : Anyway, I'm gonna tap out because I just find that whole line of reasoning too depressing, frustrating and frankly sad.
 
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The way I see it, tributaries are not a huge threat to us, on the contrary. To make a real world parallel, to me the Waystone Network is a way to fight a global threat (as well as more local nuisances). Even if nations might go to war everybody wins by doing things for the greater good such as preserving the ecosystem, fighting climate change, etc.

Nobody wins (except chaos) is the Waystone Network isn't repaired and keeps degrading. Sure we could do politics about it but I think it's not worth it. Maybe allowing Bretonia to repair their tributaries as soon as possible will strenghten them in the long term but frankly it just doesn't matter that much compared to the global threat of a failling Waystone Network. And it's not like the Empire doesn't also have the technology to repair their own tributaries so I really don't see why we should be so afraid of a little good will that benefits everyone.


The international collaboration on broad issues has happened very slowly after many centuries of conflict and political evolution. Sure Warhammer has Chaos to get people to cooperate... but its still a stretch.

The civilised human polities of the Old World are feudal with a hint of renaissance. There's going to be frequent conflicts even within the same polity - even in this extremely peaceful era Nordland and Middenland are jockeying against each other for example. Bretonnia is nearby; strong; isn't isolationist (unlike the Eonir or the Karaz Ankor) and doesn't have a lot of distractions - that's dangerous.


Empowering Bretonnia has a chance of making it more aggressive and even if that doesn't happen for whatever reason the Empire's higher ups aren't going to be happy that we rolled the dice.

If we can extract some concessions from the Bretonnians - well that'd go a long way towards balancing things.
 
I didn't even mention the concept of 'nations of order' and you used that to attack the idea of collaboration.

The way I see it, tributaries are not a huge threat to us, on the contrary. To make a real world parallel, to me the Waystone Network is a way to fight a global threat (as well as more local nuisances). Even if nations might go to war everybody wins by doing things for the greater good such as preserving the ecosystem, fighting climate change, etc.

Nobody wins (except chaos) is the Waystone Network isn't repaired and keeps degrading. Sure we could do politics about it but I think it's not worth it. Maybe allowing Bretonia to repair their tributaries as soon as possible will strenghten them in the long term but frankly it just doesn't matter that much compared to the global threat of a failling Waystone Network. And it's not like the Empire doesn't also have the technology to repair their own tributaries so I really don't see why we should be so afraid of a little good will that benefits everyone.

Tributaries are not a threat, a wealthier and more powerful Bretonia due to having them might be a threat to the Empire and conversely an Empire with tributaries and new elf allies is a threat to Bretonia, one they could diffuse by appealing to the very solidarity against common foes you mention... and paying well. Expecting free stuff because you are non-Chaos is unreasonable when you have fought the other person before. Things have costs in the case of the project our time and effort stretching back to the siege of Drakenhoff when Mathilde got her first point of dwarf favor and in the case of the other contributors their occasionally sacred lore
 
Nobody wins (except chaos) is the Waystone Network isn't repaired and keeps degrading. Sure we could do politics about it but I think it's not worth it. Maybe allowing Bretonia to repair their tributaries as soon as possible will strenghten them in the long term but frankly it just doesn't matter that much compared to the global threat of a failling Waystone Network. And it's not like the Empire doesn't also have the technology to repair their own tributaries so I really don't see why we should be so afraid of a little good will that benefits everyone.
On the flip side, tributaries in one single part of the old world aren't going to make that much difference in the matter of a failing waystone network, especially if we are already actively strengthening it with tributaries ourselves in other places.
 
I mean I'm still not seeing this as having anything to do with the runesmithing beyond the existence of Bok, which is sufficiently unique that I'm not sure we can derive much from its existence.

The only other thing that might indicate a connection is the tale of Ghazul severing the glittering realm from the Aethyr, but since we don't fully know what that even means or would entail I don't think we can really say that proves rune magic and earth bound magic are connected that way.

Allright here are the points. The citations are getting a little unwieldy so I've put them at the bottom of the post and numbered them.

1. The wizards of the empire believe that Dwarven Runes use Earthbound (undifferentiated) Magic, just in much larger amounts than the Telcesian model would seem to allow for. [Cite 1]
2.Mathilde's description of Earthbound Magic [cite 1] and Kragg's description of the effects of his runes (stripping the personalities of the winds away) [Cite 2] line up very well.
3.Dwarven Runecraft demonstrably uses both significant material components (ground Diamond from Eye of Gazul, Dragonfire for some lost runes etc) and conceptual resonance - We are explicitly told about the latter. [Cite 3]
4.The Elemental texts indicated that: a) Using resonant materials can enable Earthbound Magic levels to reach above the natural point where they would turn back into winds (though the magic has to be grabbed and used fast before it resonates with the winds and turns back into them); and b) that Wizards, who naturally bring the background level of winds up, meaningfully decrease the level of earthbound magic that can be reached in an area.
5. From point 4b we can infer that someone who repels all winds in an area (such as a runesmith) would make the maximum level of earthbound magic increase in their presence.
6. By matching points 3 and 4a we can infer that Dwarven ruencraft uses these principles at some level. Given point 2 it seems likely, or at least plausible that Dwarven runecraft converts the winds into Earthbound magic (cite 4 + AV recharging) then immediately feeds that power into generating the effect that the runes describe.
7, While obviously there is much, much more to Dwarven runecraft than these basic principles, these do seem likely to represent a significant chunk of the foundational mechanical principles that Thungi would build on with his runes.
8. Dwarves can be incredibly touchy about what exactly is covered by 'guild secrets' and talking about the principles (or asking 'hey is this secret?') has at least the potential get you grudged even if you came up with all the information in an entirely above board fashion from other sources. On top of this, what might not have been considered 'secret' in the golden age might be considered so now, and can vary depending on which runesmith you asked: see Thorek's comments on knowledge used to construct the original waystones when we recruited him.
9.Even if the above doesn't impinge on guild secrets, it offers a clear starting point from which wizards who blessed with more curiosity than concern for consequences to start poking at Dawi Runecraft to try and see what makes it tick.
10. On Bok, if at the very base Dawi Runecraft and Elementalism utilise similar principles it is conceivable that combining Elementalism and Runecraft could have a multiplicative effect i.e. the conceptual resonances strengthening each other.

*Cite 1:Mathilde explains Earthbound Magic
This is sometimes referred to as Earthbound Magic as small amounts of it can be drawn out of almost any mundane object, and this undifferentiated magical energy is believed to be what allows for witches, hedge wizards, the Hedgewise, and Elementalists to create magics that don't align with the Teclisean model. It's also believed to power the Runes of the Dwarves, which take in whatever Wind is available and somehow break it down into undifferentiated magic, which would be believed impossible to do in large quantities if the Dwarves weren't so clearly doing it.

Cite 2: Kragg's POV
of cannon. Chamon in arms and armour, Ghur in the steeds of the manling knights. Ghyran in the scattered plants clinging gamely to life, Shyish soon to blossom below. And centred on the Citadel, nascent but rapidly growing, the growing energies of an imminent Waaagh!

Kragg was as blind to the Winds of Magic as the rest of his kin, but he knew them all.

A twitch of a finger triggered the release of tamer energies. If it sought the same effect, manling magic would attempt to goad Aqshy into changing the nature of his hammer, and it would succeed or fail based on the ability of the wizard and the whims of chance. Rune Magic did not allow for these variables. When magic flowed into a Rune, the ancient art of Thungni stripped it of its wayward personality and troublesome independence. The magic in Kragg's hammer heated it until it glowed red in the same way that water flowed downhill, as the inevitable result of inanimate forces.

Cite 3 Building the tower of Gazul:
day by day the largest Rune you have ever seen is constructed out of layer after layer of ground diamond. Apparently Gazul's realm is metaphorically below the mountains, and diamonds are born literally below the mountains, so there's a conceptual link between the two. Unlike other Runes you've seen made, this one doesn't snap into a new nature once complete; the air chills in an instant as a blue fire you can only see out of the corner of your eyes burns its way slowly through the diamond dust, leaving it transparent and utterly invisible unless you can spot how light bends as it passes through the Rune. Then, to your surprise, it is not installed in the tower. It is, instead, buried in the deepest point of Karag Nar, right on the boundary between where mountain ends and where the rest of the world begins. It's also directly under the tower, measured to within a hair, and over the course of weeks a steel beam is built from the tower to the Rune, displacing several rooms in the process and leaving a rather forbidding steel pillar glowing with a faint blue light in the center of your entrance hall.

Cite 4 An anvil of Doom rune charge process:
In the context of one of the Anvils, a Rune did not mean a carving upon an object, but an object in its own right - a piece of metal in the shape of a single Rune, but itself covered in dozens or even hundreds of smaller runes. Once fully crafted, it would begin to siphon magical energies from the air, and days or weeks or months later it would be ready.
 
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Allright here are the points. The citations are getting a little unwieldy so I've put them at the bottom of the post and numbering them.

1. The wizards of the empire believe that Dwarven Runes use Earthbound (undifferentiated) Magic, just in much larger amounts than the Telcesian model would seem to allow for. [Cite 1]
2.Mathilde's description of Earthbound Magic [cite 1] and Kragg's description of the effects of his runes (stripping the personalities of the winds away) [Cite 2] line up very well.
3.Dwarven Runecraft demonstrably uses both significant material components (ground Diamond from Eye of Gazul, Dragonfire for some lost runes etc) and conceptual resonance - We are explicitly told about the latter. [Cite 3]
4.The Elemental texts indicated that: a) Using resonant materials can enable Earthbound Magic levels to reach above the natural point where they would turn back into winds (though the magic has to be grabbed and used fast before it resonates with the winds and turns back into them); and b) that Wizards, who naturally the background level of winds up, meaningfully decrease the level of earthbound magic that can be reached in an area.
5. From point 4b we can infer that someone who repels all winds in an area (such as a runesmith) would make the maximum level of earthbound magic increase in their presence.
6. By matching points 3 and 4a we can infer that Dwarven ruencraft uses these principles at some level. Given point 2 it seems likely, or at least plausible that Dwarven runecraft converts the winds into Earthbound magic (cite 4 + AV recharging) then immediately feeds that power into generating the effect that the runes describe.
7, While obviously there is much, much more to Dwarven runecraft than these basic principles, these do seem likely to represent a significant chunk of the foundational mechanical principles that Thungi would build on with his runes.
8. Dwarves can be incredibly touchy about what exactly is covered by 'guild secrets' and talking about the principles (or asking 'hey is this secret?') has at least the potential get you grudged even if you came up with all the information in an entirely above board fashion from other sources. On top of this, what might not have been considered 'secret' in the golden age might be considered so now, and can vary depending on which runesmith you asked: see Thorek's comments on knowledge used to construct the original waystones when we recruited him.
9.Even if the above doesn't impinge on guild secrets, it offers a clear starting point from which wizards who blessed with more curiosity than concern for consequences to start poking at Dawi Runecraft to try and see what makes it tick.
10. On Bok, if at the very base Dawi Runecraft and Elementalism utilise similar principles it is conceivable that combining Elementalism and Runecraft could have a multiplicative effect i.e. the conceptual resonances strengthening each other.
This is good shit. So good that I feel nervous that even reading this is enough to get me Grudged by the Cult of Thungni for Knowing Too Much. The last point in particular makes me hype to do the gigaflex with the Orbs and negotiate a price with the Colleges that includes a Seviroscope we can give Grandpa Kragg.
Hey, sorry about asking about this a month later, but what did you mean by liberty ranking?

Did I miss something important/interesting there? Tried to search the thread for that, no luck.
Typo for "library ranking". Jyn's mentioned that he's dyslexic, so typos are gonna happen.
 
One thing to consider about runes is that according to mainstream dwarf sources Thungni didn't invent runes, he discovered them in the Glittering Realm and copied them. According to the Albion book, the Old Ones taught runecraft to the dwarves there.

In both cases runes may have existed before the Winds and before Earthbound magic had entered the world from the imploded warpgates
 
One thing to consider about runes is that according to mainstream dwarf sources Thungni didn't invent runes, he discovered them in the Glittering Realm and copied them. According to the Albion book, the Old Ones taught runecraft to the dwarves there.

In both cases runes may have existed before the Winds and before Earthbound magic had entered the world from the imploded warpgates

I think that Earthbound magic may be older than the winds. It is just what happens when neutral magic is sprinkled onto matter. I think some kind of geomantic tap could do it.
 
This is good shit. So good that I feel nervous that even reading this is enough to get me Grudged by the Cult of Thungni for Knowing Too Much. The last point in particular makes me hype to do the gigaflex with the Orbs and negotiate a price with the Colleges that includes a Seviroscope we can give Grandpa Kragg.
Whilst I'm also very hype for the Orbs and the Seviroscope, I'd much prefer if Mathilde were the one to make it, possibly Windherding something with Egrimm. Part of the appeal is Mathilde's truly excellent visual Windsight, perfect for such a device, and there's also just something nice about the gift we give Kragg being our own handiwork, you know?
 
Whilst I'm also very hype for the Orbs and the Seviroscope, I'd much prefer if Mathilde were the one to make it, possibly Windherding something with Egrimm. Part of the appeal is Mathilde's truly excellent visual Windsight, perfect for such a device, and there's also just something nice about the gift we give Kragg being our own handiwork, you know?
Also, Mathilde-the-proven-tolerably-reliable having a hand in creating might be key to addressing the whole "what would it take to convince a deeply sceptical Living Ancestor Runelord to strap this piece of unproven Umgi Zhuf nonsense to his face, where he keeps his very important Beard and sundry almost as important sensory organs".
 
Also, Mathilde-the-proven-tolerably-reliable having a hand in creating might be key to addressing the whole "what would it take to convince a deeply sceptical Living Ancestor Runelord to strap this piece of unproven Umgi Zhuf nonsense to his face, where he keeps his very important Beard and sundry almost as important sensory organs".
Yeeeeeaaaaaah if we making a serviscope we better make it so Kragg doesn't have to touch it... Because if he needs to he will not use it and it probably will not work... The winds are scarred of that dwarf...
 
I'd be up for Mathilde helping so the Sevirscope can replicate her Windsight (by spending AP). But I feel making a Sevirscope from scrap would require far more enchanting actions than anything else.
 
I worry that any serviscope we make will instantly combust under the weight of Kragg's disapproval.

"Hey Comrade, remember how you have spent the last 1500 years only knowing the winds by how they flee from your presence, which you've practiced and turned it into a finely tuned sense that's essential for your craft? Wouldn't it be better if you could see magic like an elf instead? Here, strap this experimental umgi device onto your face and you'll finally be able to see magic properly."
 
I worry that any serviscope we make will instantly combust under the weight of Kragg's disapproval.

"Hey Comrade, remember how you have spent the last 1500 years only knowing the winds by how they flee from your presence, which you've practiced and turned it into a finely tuned sense that's essential for your craft? Wouldn't it be better if you could see magic like an elf instead? Here, strap this experimental umgi device onto your face and you'll finally be able to see magic properly."
I do think he would use it just for bok but it's probably better if he doesn't need to strap it to his head...
 
Depending on how it turns out we could just set it up to look at Bok all on our own, purely for our own curiosity, and just happen to study Bok at the same time as Kragg is about.

Would need to be more 'xray screen' type deal than goggles. Would also need to bring others along to give an excuse considering Mathilde hardly needs the assistance with her windsight, could include it as an experiment in comparing different wizard windsights if we can base the severiscope on Mathilde's and get feedback from other Wizards, with Bok merely one of several subjects we are observing in such a way. But honestly that sounds interesting enough on it's own.

Then if Kragg has a brainblast as he walks past great, if it doesn't help him no ruffled feathers.
 
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