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Honestly I'm interested in Mathilde reading a book about True Dhar and see what kind of lore Boney writes for it. Also love the idea of Mathilde just understanding Dhar better without ever touching it.

Ulgu would be best for us, but at the same time if they have something useful for us the cost would most likely be extremely high, for a book about True Dhar 101 for beginners probably not so much (also far less unlikely they bobby trap stuff on the level of apprentices).

Though as I said not clue what we could give them for it that we're willing to give them for it. AV is a no go for me like, I can already imagine Druchii sorceresses using it to make something horrible, like maybe they end up creating a MORBs of pure Dhar (which sounds terrifying tbh)

Information on Ulgu would be used to better cast Ulgu yes, but info on True Dhar would be useful to better dispel and otherwise counter True Dhar, of which the Druchi are practically the only users on the planet, give or take a few crazier than usual Asrai. She would probably be even more disinclined to give us that

A Orb of Dhar is called a spherical chunk of warpstone and you can get those by less exotic means, say digging them out of the ground.
 
Information on Ulgu would be used to better cast Ulgu yes, but info on True Dhar would be useful to better dispel and otherwise counter True Dhar, of which the Druchi are practically the only users on the planet, give or take a few crazier than usual Asrai. She would probably be even more disinclined to give us that

Maybe, although I still think it'd be more difficult to get Ulgu information on the level of Battle Magic than basic True Dhar books.

Though if I remember correctly the Colleges are missing quite a bit about Element Ulgu spells.

I reckon we could sell our orc and skaven research to Myrielh for Druchii magic books. It's military information that doesn't hurt the Empire, and would make the Druchii bolder in going to war with two of the most dangerous races on the planet. The Enemy of my Enemy is my Enemy's Enemy, no more or less, but sometimes I can sit back and watch them fight.

About Skaven research maybe something which we could exchange is Queekish. Neither the dwarves nor humans could figure it out in thousands of years so maybe the Druchii also haven't figured it out.

Although considering how the sorceress is talking about curiosities and all that we could exchange Empire spices. Spices are almost always very valuable.
 
Honestly I'm interested in Mathilde reading a book about True Dhar and see what kind of lore Boney writes for it. Also love the idea of Mathilde just understanding Dhar better without ever touching it.

Ulgu would be best for us, but at the same time if they have something useful for us the cost would most likely be extremely high, for a book about True Dhar 101 for beginners probably not so much (also far less unlikely they bobby trap stuff on the level of apprentices).

Though as I said not clue what we could give them for it that we're willing to give them for it. AV is a no go for me like, I can already imagine Druchii sorceresses using it to make something horrible, like maybe they end up creating a MORBs of pure Dhar (which sounds terrifying tbh)
I was pretty firmly in the camp of making short term deals with the Druuchi whilst hinting we'd be open to longer term deals if they panned out, and then not following through on that. I'd be happy to try and get some books out of them.

But of all the topics we could get from them, I wouldn't trust anything in a Druuchi book on magic, specifically. We've seen evidence that their magical learning is deliberately sabotaged by Morathi, and I fully expect any magic books to have similar traps. We'd be poisoning our understanding of magic in subtle ways that aren't just dangerous, but worse - incorrect.

Almost any other book topics I'd be down for, though.
 
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I was pretty firmly in the camp of making short term deals with the Druuchi whilst hinting we'd be open to longer term deals if they panned out, and then not following through on that. I'd be happy to try and get some books out of them.

But of all the topics we could get from them, I wouldn't trust anything in a Druuchi book on magic, specifically. We've seen evidence that their magical learning is deliberately sabotaged by Morathi, and I fully expect any magic books to have similar traps. We'd be poisoning our understanding of magic in subtle ways that aren't just dangerous, but worse - incorrect.

Almost any other book topics I'd be down for, though.
The very same sorcerer was shown up by one of the gray lords too. If we want to learn about true dhar, better to come up with something that will motivate one of them to show us.
 
Although considering how the sorceress is talking about curiosities and all that we could exchange Empire spices. Spices are almost always very valuable.

Luxuries are also good thing to trade—the Dreadlord seemed impressed by the wine she was drinking.

She takes a sip of her drink, then looks mildly surprised and gives it a curious look.

I suspect that Naggaroth has a very basic level of agriculture—mostly roots, grains, and animal feed—and that high value foods and drink come from raids and what little trade they can get.

But of all the topics we could get from them, I wouldn't trust anything in a Druuchi book on magic, specifically. We've seen evidence that their magical learning is deliberately sabotaged by Morathi, and I fully expect any magic books to have similar traps. We'd be poisoning our understanding of magic in subtle ways that aren't just dangerous, but worse - incorrect.

You're not wrong, but there's another element to consider—we can independently verify any Druchii magic, but they can't. The Sorceresses have to take Morathi's teachings in good faith, because if they don't, they'll probably be killed for treason. We, however, can compare it to the Empire's own traditions, to Teclis's teachings, to the magical knowledge of the Eonir and the Grey Lords, and potentially to Dwarven, Kislevian, Bretonnian, and Nehekaran magic.

In a vacuum, it's probably flawed. But we won't be looking at it in a vacuum—we'll be comparing it to what we already know, and we'll keep the stuff that works, and get rid of the stuff that doesn't work.

I doubt that every single spell, incantation, ritual, and technique is sabotaged. There'll just be a few key things—like the vortices—that'll prevent her students from attaining enough power to challenge her, but not enough to cripple them on the field of battle. Otherwise the Sorceresses would never win a magic duel if everything they were taught was wrong.

And arguably, it's not that different from how Teclis taught magic to the Colleges. We know Teclisian theory is wrong. We know Teclis hid things from us, and even lied to us, and it's hard to ascribe charitable justifications to him for that.
 
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I wonder if it's worth cultivating a sorceress or two, to whom we can offer a way of finding out where Morathai screwed them and how to fix it, in the hope of them eventually backstabbing Morathai being enough to kill her?
 
No it's not, because while the Obernarn stone talks about things circa the first incursion, it doesn't itself predate that, which means it's a story, and we already know that some of the stories told about the gods are BS, like the one about Taal and Talabheim.
Given the obscure deities it mentions, it's more likely to be legit than other stories.

That doesn't really make sense when elven mythology already tells us the dwelling place of the gods: at the very highest peaks of the Annulii Mountains, where no elf has ever gone and returned back.
This on the other hand just sounds like a common wrong god story.

Lord Ulric is very obviously a human myth (it includes just the Gods in the Northern and Southern pantheons)
It also says that he introduced steel to humans even though it's a matter of historical record that the dwarves gave humans steel, during Sigmar's time rather than the thousands of years before it that this account claims. It's basically the Aeneid in this respect.

Verena is a creature of the warp
Stop asserting this as fact. You are unintentionally deceiving people into believing that this is a hard confirmed truth about the setting, rather than merely a common theory you personally subscribe to.
 
Luxuries are also good thing to trade—the Dreadlord seemed impressed by the wine she was drinking.



I suspect that Naggaroth has a very basic level of agriculture—mostly roots, grains, and animal feed—and that high value foods and drink come from raids and what little trade they can get.

Opening a trade route for luxury herbs, wine, cheese, charcuteries, etc. might indeed be extremely profitable... but would probably come with a reputational cost.

Still, if we can use such "luxuries" (to the Drucchi if not to the average empire peasant) to get us bôôks, raids on our enemies, military intelligence, etc. I think it might just be worth it. Perhaps next turn we could use our EIC action on that, for exemple :

[ ] EIC: Attempt to establish a trade route with the Drucchi (luxury foodstuffs)
 
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Opening a trade route for luxury herbs, wine, cheese, charcuteries, etc. might indeed be extremely profitable... but would probably come with a reputational cost.

Still, if we can use such "luxuries" (to the Drucchi if not to the average empire peasant) to get us bôôks, raids on our enemies, military intelligence, etc. I think it might just be worth it. Perhaps next turn we could use our EIC action on that, for exemple :

[ ] EIC: Attempt to establish a trade route with the Drucchi (luxury foodstuffs)
Problem with trading large amounts of goods with the Druchii is that they're on the other side of the ocean, which means ships would be necessary. I really don't think Marienburg would let the Empire have trade fleets.
 
And arguably, it's not that different from how Teclis taught magic to the Colleges. We know Teclisian theory is wrong. We know Teclis hid things from us, and even lied to us, and it's hard to ascribe charitable justifications to him for that.
I mean it's actually fairly easy to assign charitable justifications to the incomplete nature of Telcisian theory as taught by Telcis.

The first thing to remember about when Telcis was teching the Empire's first wizards is that Telcis knows that the Elven understanding of magic is flawed.* Teaching Humans in the first place was unusual, but he almost certainly saw at least one of those humans inventing a new spell sometime early on during those years, which is not something that is even possible for an elf of that level of education. So for one, Telcis is himself only in the realms of hypothesis for what Humans can really do with what he taught them. There is certainly an argument for limiting what he taught the so as not to limit them by his own (mis)understanding of what is possible for them.

Secondly, there were precisely three high elf wizards who came to help during the great war, and I'm pretty sure they did not bring the Library of the Tower of Hoeth with them. Assuming all three were still alive and helping found the colleges, that's three people trying to remember thousands of years worth of magical development and slim it down into 8 meaningful curriculums. Those curriculums have to assume zero prior knowledge from many of their students and potentially zero educational background. Then remember that the education time of a college wizard is much much shorter than for any elf studying even a single wind. So it has to be boiled down to the real essentials (from an elven point of view).

And again this is three people, working with whatever few magical reference books they brought to a warzone, trying to write the textbook(s) of everything magic for people who don't actually do magic the quite same way as them.

Not to mention all the other things they are juggling, like creating and enchanting those 8 architectural/magical marvels that are the College buildings. Or working out how to actually set up empire wide recruitment when your potential recruits have a high likelihood of being murdered when their powers emerge and most of your ready talent pool and their recruitment networks have been potentially pulled up and plonked down in a city thousands of miles from where all those networks were set up. Or clearing up all the remnants of the Chaos invasion, taking a look at where this Dwarf Karak has been vanished from existence, etc. etc.

*Like IIRC pre-Telcis general Elven magical theory has humans being basically unable to use magic at all without horrible dhar corruption.
 
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Secondly, there were precisely three high elf wizards who came to help during the great war, and I'm pretty sure they did not bring the Library of the Tower of Hoeth with them. Assuming all three were still alive and helping found the colleges, that's three people trying to remember thousands of years worth of magical development and slim it down into 8 meaningful curriculums
Yrtle died at the gates of Kislev City, but I believe Finreir helped with the Colleges.
 
Problem with trading large amounts of goods with the Druchii is that they're on the other side of the ocean, which means ships would be necessary. I really don't think Marienburg would let the Empire have trade fleets.

Welp Druchi Pirates and diplomats could reach the Eonir so if we get the ball rolling with trade maybe it'll be a matter of just transporting the goods of the empire to the eonir to trade back to the Druchi but yeah it probably wouldn't be consistant trade between the empire and druchi because Marienburg and the high elves.

Elves while not fully controlling of the oceans I remember Boney making a post on how the first fleet to reach the new world and back was a big deal because high elves fleets are super dick heads to humans and they say go back or we'll sink your ship and then the Druchi boogaloo.

Either way preety sure high elf policy to human encounters on the high sea is to go the fuck back or die so druchi trade would rely on them reaching the eonir and evading high elf sea fleet which may not be consistant hopefully.
 
Problem with trading large amounts of goods with the Druchii is that they're on the other side of the ocean, which means ships would be necessary. I really don't think Marienburg would let the Empire have trade fleets.

The way I see it, we would just bring the goods to Laurelorn (or another port in the Empire but that's probably dicier) and they'd take it from there on their own ships.

Also, should we give this a shot?

[ ] Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Sigmarites)

I mean, cooperation with dwarves is in their scriptures after all. And they probably have LOTS of good stuff or many cultures : How to fight deamons, beastmen, vampires and black magisters, confiscated magic (and mundane) books, tactics, strategy, old secret texts, etc.

Now, they may want to keep all of that in their vaults never to see the light of day, but then again, when we lost the dwarf reputation mecanism we also gained a perk. Basicly, we can influence decisions of Karaks and even the Karaz Ankor itself so long as it's in the interest of dwarfdom. We can basicly raise a throng if we need to!

So if we could make an official request in the name of Karaz Ankor to supply bôôks possibly as a way for that information to be safer (what is safer than a whole mountain guarded by dwarves as a safe). It would certainly be of benefit to the Karaz Ankor as a whole to benefit of the knowledge Sigmar's cult has hoarded for millenias so I wonder if we couldn't swing it. Karaz Ankor could even pay back Sigmar's cult by providing some technology (ex : steam tanks) to the Empire as a whole. Win-Win, and we gets all the books.
 
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I like it. I'd want a turn or two of agents in the church to get the lay of the land, but I like it. I bet if we name a dwarf head librarian after us then the request coming from them would work.

Bõøk
 
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Also, should we give this a shot?

[ ] Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Sigmarites)
It's certainly cool, but I'm not comfortable having heavy dealings with the Church of Sigmar while we still have the Disdain for Sigmar malus.

The thread has basically been treating it as a nonfactor by avoiding involvement with the Church and to lesser extent the Empire. I think this would be the first time the Malus would really come into play narratively and challenge that comfortable spot we're in. We could probably still do it, mind, but I don't think it's worth the grief right now.

(Actually my first read through I was a bit disappointed we never purged it- I was really looking forward to seeing the Church's reaction to our Dwarf stuff).
 
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I wonder if it's worth cultivating a sorceress or two, to whom we can offer a way of finding out where Morathai screwed them and how to fix it, in the hope of them eventually backstabbing Morathai being enough to kill her?

I wonder if Mathilde would be able to, once again, redeem the unredeemable and recruit a Druchii sorceress.



I think the results of Teclis teaching the humans and Morathi the Druchii is somewhat similar.

At the end of the day Morathi needs sorceresses to be strong and able to fight and be useful in general while Teclis needed Battle Wizards to fight against Chaos.


Teclis, because of a lack of time*, had to cut down the College curriculum leaving gaps like elementals and some kind of magic (for example there's very little element Ulgu magic in the College curriculums). Or telling humans to not touch the Waystones at all.


Meanwhile Morathi does it on purpose so no sorceress can challenge her.


*: Athough iirc I think he stayed for quite a few years more after the war against chaos. I think I remember a comment by Boney saying that if Teclis had wanted to teach us those things it's hard to think he wouldn't have had time to do so.
 
My working theory is that Elves didn't get to look at human elementalism since the humans did not want to talk about it with them, though I am admittedly extrapolating a lot from a little information (in canon at least) and that from Unhappy Anchovy since I don't have the sources myself, so take that with a grain of salt.
 
You bolt awake in Karaz-a-Karak. You are not reading really weird theories on Elven gods by the Karaz Ankor's sole dwarf-human. It is the year 102 by dwarven reckoning. You are Grimnir, not yet a god, and you have changed your mind. The future cannot come to pass. Ulthuan must burn.
Then remember you have no navy and won't have one worth a damn for a couple millennia yet.

(out of world there's gonna be more to it than that because the real world writers of the warhammer setting presumably included sotek deliberately.)
I think you ascribing far more planning to the authors than I would. I would not at all be surprised if the Doylist reasons were either "that's the first Lizardmen god I thought of and it'll be confusing to the readers" or "Sotek is cool and should be in this story".

We know Teclis hid things from us, and even lied to us
Lied? Hid things/didn't tell the Colleges stuff he knew but I'm not sure he lied about anything.

[QUOTE="Raydom, post: 28347309, member: 38913"]
Elves while not fully controlling of the oceans I remember Boney making a post on how the first fleet to reach the new world and back was a big deal because high elves fleets are super dick heads to humans and they say go back or we'll sink your ship and then the Druchi boogaloo.

Either way preety sure high elf policy to human encounters on the high sea is to go the fuck back or die so druchi trade would rely on them reaching the eonir and evading high elf sea fleet which may not be consistant hopefully.
[/QUOTE]
IIRC the Asur don't care about people going to Lustria (although they probably think it's a stupid thing to do) but don't allow people to sail past Ulthuan to Naggaroth, which imo makes perfect sense.

We know they definitely don't sink or attack every ship they see on the ocean because Lothern is a major trading port with basically everyone, and all the non-Asur have to sail there.
 
think you ascribing far more planning to the authors than I would. I would not at all be surprised if the Doylist reasons were either "that's the first Lizardmen god I thought of and it'll be confusing to the readers" or "Sotek is cool and should be in this story".
Nah thats my expectation too. But both of those are still "this is definitely sotek and not 'the first snake god the translator knew' territory."
 
Information on Ulgu would be used to better cast Ulgu yes, but info on True Dhar would be useful to better dispel and otherwise counter True Dhar, of which the Druchi are practically the only users on the planet, give or take a few crazier than usual Asrai. She would probably be even more disinclined to give us that
If by 'dispel' you mean to deconstruct magics to point out their weaknesses to others via papers or whatnot, they'd absolutely be good for that. If you mean actual mid-combat dispelling, that's probably not gonna happen unless they give us actually magical tomes, I think. Books like the Liber Mortis which actively grant skills just from reading them are going to be rare. And that seems unlikely to be on the menu.

""Regular"" Dhar books would still be quite an addition to the library, of course, but I think compared to that, we'd see more use out of Ulgu books - to learn other spells, make them, codify them, etc.
 
But of all the topics we could get from them, I wouldn't trust anything in a Druuchi book on magic, specifically. We've seen evidence that their magical learning is deliberately sabotaged by Morathi, and I fully expect any magic books to have similar traps. We'd be poisoning our understanding of magic in subtle ways that aren't just dangerous, but worse - incorrect.

I don't get how you'd think this would work in practice.

First Mathilde could have the Colleges inspect the books or one of the Elves Houses or even one of the Grey Lords (and for course Mathilde herself). I find it exceedingly unlikely that something would get past them.

Second Mathilde can actually experiment with it and confirm if what is written in the books is true or not. (In the same way she can look at Elementalist and know they break the Teclisian model so it has to be incorrect somewhere)

(Thirdly, when we go to the Elfication we would learn neat shadow tricks and we could ask the people there)

(Fourth most likely, after the Waystone Project, Mathilde could gain free access to the Library of Mournings and compare with what is found there)

If something gets past all those filters then, honestly, besides breaking my suspension of disbelief it has to be so subtle and hard to come to know that I don't think Mathilde would have discovered it on her own in her entire life.


Also, as far as I know Morathi does this so sorceress can challenge her, so unless we're going to face Morathi in a magical duel said "poisoning"
will be irrelevant.
 
I wonder with the Orgenan Stone whether whoever carved it didn't manage to, for lack of a better word, thread the essenses of divinity of the involved gods into the rock, so that whoever saw it would know? They might interpret it as the face of the god they are most familiar with rather than the "actual" face that did it, hence why Imperials claim Verena rather than Hoeth, but always the right emotional vortex, for lack of a better word, defaulting to the default in case the viewer does not know a face.
 
I think I've asked this before, but how sure are we that there is such a thing as one god wearing multiple faces? Manathlaan and Mannan seen like the best test case, but I don't think we've ever gotten confirmation.

So I think we need to treat it as still an assumption, that just because two differently named gods look largely the same if you squint, they are the same god.
 
I think I've asked this before, but how sure are we that there is such a thing as one god wearing multiple faces? Manathlaan and Mannan seen like the best test case, but I don't think we've ever gotten confirmation.

So I think we need to treat it as still an assumption, that just because two differently named gods look largely the same if you squint, they are the same god.
For personal experience there was a point with Mathilde getting a little bit of a divine familiarity sense when looking at coins depicting the snake and subtlety Nekeharan god, but it's worth noting that literally even the human scholarship is "yeah the southern gods apart from myrmidia are all from when we picked up elven gods when we started reoccupying elven ruins."
 
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