Paranoia mode: Activate!
How defensible do you think the project headquarters would be if the Isolationist faction attempted a coup for power?
Because that's like, my worst case scenario right now.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
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Paranoia mode: Activate!
How defensible do you think the project headquarters would be if the Isolationist faction attempted a coup for power?
Because that's like, my worst case scenario right now.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Most of the value of Mathilde's ger is wrapped up in Branulhune and the Belt, which are less like a fighter jet and more akin to owning the Mona Lisa. It's priceless and however you got it, it definitely wasn't by buying it.
Mathilde's pistols are a better argument, but I'm not sure they're visible enough to be seen for as valuable as they are.
Asuryan is said to be the "Keeper of the Balance" and to "judge between the disputes of the gods", which could be argued to make him a god of justice I suppose.
As for the thing with Hoeth, IIRC the general Elven opinion (using a literal interpretation of the myth) is that Hoeth was being really nice, but also breaking some sort of law so Asuryan was right to punish him.
Maybe so, but like, Verena is a southern god, which generally means worship thereof is younger. And we know Hoeth dates back to at least -2748IC, as he's still a god to the Dark Elves.
I wasn't familiar with that. Rulers I know Asuryan to be a patron of, judges and lawyers are new to me. I guess that makes the idea that Hoeth/Verena is a God of justice and just doesn't do its justice thing in the elf pantheon make more sense, but again even if we take this to be correct it doesn't really prove that Verena predates Hoeth, it could just as easily be that Hoeth gained a new domain. Is there any source that suggests some divinity like Verena was being worshipped by humans before the Coming of Chaos?
According to the wiki the offical stance is "Hoeth was perhaps nice to give us knowledge, but what if KNOWLEDGE IS BAD BECAUSE NEW THINGS ARE BAD", which I have to say is a very Dawi way of looking at things:
Article: Opinion is divided on precisely why Hoeth did so. Most Elves believe Hoeth's actions were founded in generosity, but some mutter darkly of how knowledge leads to progress, and progress inevitably leads to the ruin of tradition.
Fortunately with those we could just redirect all the complainers to Kragg... If they think they are hard enough.
We're also told pretty clearly that the Tileans and Estalians were inspired by what they saw in the abandoned elven colony cities, so we know they were exposed to temples, murals telling the legends of, and possibly relics of the elven pantheon.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
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It might be the worst case, but in the event of a coup I would not expect the project headquarters to be the first target. I would not even expect it to be in the top ten list of targets.
There's very little evidence of what humans were like before the coming of Chaos*. The only direct statements we have, from the elves, are explicit that gods as a category of Aethyrical entity significantly post-date the Coming of Chaos, with some having assumed/been formed in the image of previously fictional gods that only existed in legend.
The humans we do know about from before the Coming of Chaos were the humans pupils of the Old Ones on Albion, and the Stone Age bands of hunter-gatherers that lived in tropical regions. The later seems very unlikely to have worshipped Verena, given their level of social organisation, and the former seem pretty unlikely to.
Now, it's possible that Verena and Hoeth were two separate identities both formed in the image of humans and elven legends respectively of a particular Old One, which is why they have overlaps.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Does it? Worship of Myrmidia supposedly goes back to Tylos.
Actually, we've got those coins, I'm pretty sure they had religious symbolism?
But why would the being be called 'Verena' or have the guise humans associate with her in the absence of any humans worshiping her?
- Location
- Australia
I don't know about worship, but since the Obernarn Stone depicts her, it's probably a safe bet to say she predates Chaos' entry into the world. The argument isn't really that humans worshipped her into existence and then elves adopted her, it's that the human conception of her is fuller than the elves'. I think geographical proximity may be a probable cause, since elves mostly lived in Ulthuan at the time while the Old World had humans living there; the Eltharin name for the Old World translates to 'the Fated Place', which sounds like an important place where gods maybe used to hang out.
- Location
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- He/Him
I thought that was their name for the whole planet?
From what we know; at the time of the Coming of Chaos humans lived in the tropics and in Albion, nowhere else. Just as the dwarves lived on Albion and Karak Zorn and the elves lived on Albion and Ulthuan.
There's no reason to believe that humans were in the Old World when the warp gates fell. Given the elves seem to have had ships, it's effectively much closer to the elves' ancestral homeland than to the human one. It's more likely that the elves were. There's a recorded pre-Coming of Chaos elven city in the middle of Norsca, after all. They probably just didn't survive the daemon invasion.
The creation of the Obernan stone could easily be significantly longer after the Coming of Chaos than the present is from then. It's a record of what one tribe that lived in the Reik basin around four thousand years ago believed, not what actually happened another five thousand years before that.
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"Send a kithband to clear out those filthy humans squatting in our city".
The scenario I'm thinking of is where the Isolationists become more afraid of losing their power and influence to outsiders than they are of losing a war with the Empire, and removing those outsiders with force would be a potential strategic goal in the event of a coup. It wouldn't be a primary target—that would be the centres of power in the city, like the palace, the city hall, the other major houses etc—but it would be a target.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I doubt the elfs of Ulthuan appreciate just how much of a driving force a human is being on the project.
- Location
- Australia
<Eltharin>
I've checked the source it cites and it checks out. Elthin Arvan is only a name for the continent, not the planet.
- Location
- A Pit Of My Own Making
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We'll be staying with the Shadow Warriors, they might not care. Heck, if we make good friends, they might even smuggle us home.
They are loyal to Ulthuan. That's why they're not Druchii. There's not a chance in Hell of them disobeying the Phoenix King or government if they say that Mathilde can't leave.
Dwarf legends claimed the ancestors of the beastmen merged with their herds. I don't think they would have been raising goats at the tropics, that is more of an arid semitropical sort of animal.
The wiki elsewhere claims that it's the name for the whole planet. It has an image as well.
That could easily have happened after they migrated north, as the magic level apparently didn't surge immediately but took centuries to rise high enough for problems to arise. Remember the dwarven expansion north happened between the Coming of Chaos and the formation of the Vortex. It's pretty explicit they started at Karak Zorn and then moved north.
And the dwarves lived in a mountain range. They could easily have been raising goats there even in the tropics given the altitude.
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Point, I can see that timeline working out.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Hmm. I might be getting confused with Paradox of Choice, where Asuryan made a law forbidding the Elven gods to mess with the mortal world, and then I've made the connection that Hoeth broke the law, so it was still just for Asuryan to punish him. Mea culpa.
No it's not, because while the Obernarn stone talks about things circa the first incursion, it doesn't itself predate that, which means it's a story, and we already know that some of the stories told about the gods are BS, like the one about Taal and Talabheim.
Assumong there is no stigma against breeding their goats to adapt to the environment, I don't think that's a problem.
You can keep irl goats anywhere from regions bordering the Sahara in Africa all the way up to rural Sweden, depending on the breed.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I think there's a bit about that in the Isha section in 8th edition- that Asuryan forbids interference but Isha shirks the rule when she can?
Is there any evidence of Elves and Dwarfs on Albion?