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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Alratan said:
They may well not be commands but requests that Caledor has no obligation to obey. If that's the case the entire thing about codephrases is a red herring.
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It's highly likely to be the case. After turning a waystone on and off several times in close succession, the code stopped working and the waystone was forcefully reconnected with what was described as annoyance.
 
Thwarted by hubris and the crime against humanity that is phone posting, I admit defeat: my perfect plan will not exist.
This vote has taught me one thing though: I could not care less about swording. Even random mapping feels more interesting.
So I'll just confirm my original vote.

[X] Plan Lore and Metal, Windfall Edition
 
Alratan said:
Also, note, when we're talking about codephrases, what may well actually be happening is asking Caledor (or the arhcmages with him) to do something in a language he understands. They may well not be commands but requests that Caledor has no obligation to obey. If that's the case the entire thing about codephrases is a red herring.
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While this very easily might be the case, it's worth remembering that doesn't mean they're meaningless - there's a significant difference between "I asked nicely in a way that probably means I have a decent reason" and "I am using a verified emergency code that gives me official authorization to make this request".
 
AsuraAtlas said:
While what you're saying makes some sense, saying that the Asur are all carrot and no stick is a pretty direct quote from this WoB:
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See, i am not sure if Asur aren´t prideful enough to do it anyway, and then Druuchi win :V

Also recasting my vote, i was never one for aparritions anyway.
[X] Plan Codifying and Swords
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I just had a random thought. The Ice Witches built a new waystone at Castle Alexandronov, correct? Would it be possible to go have a look at it or something?

At the very least, I think we should try to ask Zlata about it at some point, maybe include her on the Foundation action to see if she has any lore she can share (she probably doesn't, but it's worth a try).
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Alexandronov is a nexus, not a waystone. They're likely to be rather protective of it, and even if they could be convinced, it'd be best to have a solid grasp of waystones before you even think about means of creating nexuses (nexi?).
 
Boney said:
Geopolitically, Ulthuan have only recently returned to the Old World and most of the influence they've developed has been in Marienburg, and the relationship between the Empire and Marienburg is already extremely strained, so they don't really have any levers to influence the Empire with. Even if they start rattling sabers there's not really a whole lot they can actually do, short of razing a few fishing villages and failed trading towns on the coasts of Nordland and Ostland that the Norscans already raze every other decade anyway. They don't really have any way to escalate things beyond that short of sailing up the Reik and besieging Altdorf, which would kick off War of the Beard 2 plus Crusades 2 at the same time and Marienburg would probably balk at and refuse to allow in the first place, or sailing up the Schaukel and besieging Tor Lithanel, which is something the Dwarves of the Golden Age couldn't manage.
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Huh, This quote last page makes me wonder about those failed towns. Could EIC make use of them and turn them profitable I wonder? Especially with Marienburg saber rattling it might be the perfect time to try again as long as we can defend it against sabotage. Profit margins on trade goods would be high right now so might allow set up costs to be payed back fast and would weaken Marienburg position as well.

Where do I look to learn more about these towns?
 
LadySerpentine said:
While this very easily might be the case, it's worth remembering that doesn't mean they're meaningless - there's a significant difference between "I asked nicely in a way that probably means I have a decent reason" and "I am using a verified emergency code that gives me official authorization to make this request".
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Only if he has no way of verifying the identity of who's asking. For all we know the phrases that Teclis told the druids may be completely unlike the ones the Asur use, he just dialled Caledor up via the Waystones and they hashed out an agreement that Caledor would start listening to the druids.

The person we may need to convince to let us have authority over the Waystone network may be Caledor himself. He's not a computer. If he doesn't like you he has no obligation to listen to you whatever words you use.

I didn't think there is such thing as official authorisation. There's just Caledor doing whatever he wants. It's not as if the rest of the Asur can tell him what to do either.
 
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Probably not, because the reason they are failed is mostly someone comes to burn them down every decade or so. The EIC doesn't have magic muscle on tap unless Mathilde wants to spend a decade protecting Podunkaville, Nordland.
 
Hey regarding Eike, does anyone think having her along on tributary making would be nice? Probably can't make it this turn, but the rituals are fairly benign as far as rituals go, and it might give her nice insights/exposure to different magic disciplines and seeing magic in the wild as it were
 
[X] Plan Lore and Metal, Windfall Edition
[X] Plan Lore and Metal, Windfall Edition. (ft. Red Riders)
[X] Plan Swordfall and Codifying
[X] Plan Codifying and Swords on a Solid Foundation

Adding an extra plan to approval vote
 
Tasoli said:
Huh, This quote last page makes me wonder about those failed towns. Could EIC make use of them and turn them profitable I wonder? Especially with Marienburg saber rattling it might be the perfect time to try again as long as we can defend it against sabotage. Profit margins on trade goods would be high right now so might allow set up costs to be payed back fast and would weaken Marienburg position as well.

Where do I look to learn more about these towns?
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Neues Emskrank and Salkalten were backed and bankrolled by multiple Elector Counts as well as a gaggle of lesser nobles and multiple merchant houses. They had much, much more resources and influence than the EIC could possibly muster and still failed. The only way it would stand any chance of working is if Mathilde made it her next objective after the Waystone Project concludes.
 
Alratan said:
Only if he has no way of verifying the identity of who's asking. For all we know the phrases that Teclis told the druids may be completely unlike the ones the Asur use, he just dialled Caledor up via the Waystones and they hashed out an agreement that Caledor would start listening to the druids.

The person we may need to convince to let us have authority over the Waystone network may be Caledor himself. He's not a computer. If he doesn't like you he has no obligation to listen to you whatever words you use.

I didn't think there is such thing as official authorisation. There's just Caledor doing whatever he wants. It's not as if the rest of the Asur can tell him what to do either.
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It's certainly true that he has no obligations per se, even if you say the right words, because as you note, Caledor is a person and not a computer. But the easist way of verifying someone's identity in this case is "This person is using the right passphrases to indicate they're not just some random yahoo".

"Official authorization" is also a slippery phrase here. Caledor probably has ultimate veto authority, but that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as people given broad latitude to react to the situation on the ground with the assumption that, if they're saying certain things, there needs to be a really good reason to assume otherwise.
 
LadySerpentine said:
It's certainly true that he has no obligations per se, even if you say the right words, because as you note, Caledor is a person and not a computer. But the easist way of verifying someone's identity in this case is "This person is using the right passphrases to indicate they're not just some random yahoo".

"Official authorization" is also a slippery phrase here. Caledor probably has ultimate veto authority, but that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as people given broad latitude to react to the situation on the ground with the assumption that, if they're saying certain things, there needs to be a really good reason to assume otherwise.
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My point is that there's no institution here. There's no one that can give official authorisation - and it's not about veto power. From what we've seen, this isn't an automatic system at all. When you talk to a Waystone, you're asking Caledor to make an active intervention to make it do what you want.

Now, he chooses to listen to the Asur and (usually?) do what they ask. Why should he choose to listen to some random humans, even if they use the same words as the Asur do? What have we done to earn Caledor's trust? How can we incentivise him to spend his presumably limited attention and possibly limited energy to do things we want him to do? What's in it for him?

Also, arguments that the elves have abandoned the Waystones and have no right to have an opinion on what we do with them are rather undermined if an elf has been actively managing the system for the last few thousand years without being paid for it.
 
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A_Somebody said:
Hey regarding Eike, does anyone think having her along on tributary making would be nice? Probably can't make it this turn, but the rituals are fairly benign as far as rituals go, and it might give her nice insights/exposure to different magic disciplines and seeing magic in the wild as it were
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She doesn't even know any Ulgu spells yet, so I'd say focus on building up her own skillset first before looking to glean insights from other paradigms.
 
A_Somebody said:
the rituals are fairly benign as far as rituals go
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The spirit ritual empowers and enrages the spirit it uses when it fails. The Haléthan ritual angers local spirits and makes spellcasting in the area dangerous when it fails. The Dreaming Wood ritual is the only one that isn't dangerous when it fails, so I guess is we use that one we can have Eike watch it. Not sure how educational it'll really be, but I suppose it's in Lingua Praestantia so at least Eike will understand the eight days long chanting.
Tasoli said:
Huh, This quote last page makes me wonder about those failed towns. Could EIC make use of them and turn them profitable I wonder? Especially with Marienburg saber rattling it might be the perfect time to try again as long as we can defend it against sabotage. Profit margins on trade goods would be high right now so might allow set up costs to be payed back fast and would weaken Marienburg position as well.
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I guess it's possible that the small Nordland ports could benefit from more sea traffic heading to Laurelorn, serving as rest stations and selling supplies to traders, but I doubt it's going to turn them into hugely important ports. Maybe that's something?

Actually now that I think about it could we use that to eventually insert agents into Nordland's ports?
 
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Boney said:
The only way it would stand any chance of working is if Mathilde made it her next objective after the Waystone Project concludes.
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Algard: "Mathilde, your waystone project has been a massive success! You've weakened the forces of chaos, purged their strongholds, created strong alliances with our neighbours, and brought home a treasure trove of magical secrets! What are you planning to do next?"

Mathilde: "I'm going to run a company town on the Nordlander coastline."

Algard: "... I'm getting the demonchecker. And maybe the Bursar too."
 
A_Somebody said:
Hey regarding Eike, does anyone think having her along on tributary making would be nice? Probably can't make it this turn, but the rituals are fairly benign as far as rituals go, and it might give her nice insights/exposure to different magic disciplines and seeing magic in the wild as it were
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We're not actually installing tributaries with that action, just talking to the local authorities and recruiting somebody to spend a decade or so doing the actual installations. Maybe we'll make one or two as part of training the recruits, but it's gonna be a lot more politics than magic. Which isn't a bad thing for Eike certainly, but not what you were going for I think.
 
To my understanding, the problem with getting Waystones to link to the Vortex via leylines isn't really the leyline, per se. It's because Caledor is sitting there on the other end of the connection, rejecting any requests that don't use the Asur-approved password. Which also means that if you're not trying to connect to the Vortex, you can go ahead and make connections to whatever alternative you have set up, like the Ice Witches or the Dawi.

So, oddly enough, what might be the best way to get the Asur on board with hooking up third-party Waystones to their network is to show up with a viable Waystone prototype, and ask for the password to connect. At that point, the cat is out of the bag, and it's too late for them to try and re-establish secrecy.

It might be awkward diplomatically, and they'd probably attempt to impose restrictions and possibly oversight. But the Asur would have the choice of getting new Waystones on their network for free, or having someone potentially fill in the holes in their network with Waystones that redirect the energy somewhere else. (And while we probably wouldn't do it, once there's a viable alternative, taking down their Waystones and putting up homegrown ones would be possible, and very likely one of the reasons they'd be opposed to other people learning how to make them).
 
Tasoli said:
Huh, This quote last page makes me wonder about those failed towns. Could EIC make use of them and turn them profitable I wonder? Especially with Marienburg saber rattling it might be the perfect time to try again as long as we can defend it against sabotage. Profit margins on trade goods would be high right now so might allow set up costs to be payed back fast and would weaken Marienburg position as well.

Where do I look to learn more about these towns?
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Boney said:
How many significant towns does the Empire have on that coastline? Only one. Why? Because Marienburg sabotaged the other two towns that the Empire tried to establish on it. See Point One.
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Any successful coast town needs enough military to withstand raids by Marienburg's fleets.
 
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