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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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dinomannitro6 said:
I think those were part of these:
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Deathbybunnies said:
I think it's a collection of books, not a single notable book? It's probably in here, as "Obscure Vampiric":
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Boney said:
two new notable tomes, two new objects of study,
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The Vampire prophecies show up both as notable book and as artifact while Armarium doesn't show up so I got confused about it since it looks like accidental doubling that pushed it out but obscure Vampiric being them makes sense.
 
Glau said:
Our agents are merchants, so not an easy way to insert them into a cult. And we know what the cult is thinking, we can talk to the white wolves and al-ulric. What we need to know is what is going on on the ground with movement of people and stockpiled af war material.
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Our agents are merchants which is why we don't really have the spy by "inserting into" in the first place. They get into business with people, and then do a somewhat more prestigious version of "use that business relationship for gossip."

Your "we have other inroads into the cult" has SOME merit (albeit the white wolves are completely divorced from the sort of shit we want to know at this point, what they do know is years and years out of date) but the fact still remains that the cult of ulric is a major institution that it is in fact perfectly possible to get into business with.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Is that how codifying works? That wasn't really my impression. I thought it was much more trying to put down into words the things Mathilde understands intuitively.
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I think the final part of codifying is casting the codified version. If it's not then having Eike tag along isn't dangerous, but it also won't give Eike a chance to see Mathilde cast magic which is what makes some people want to have her join the action.
 
mathymancer said:
I think the final part of codifying is casting the codified version. If it's not then having Eike tag along isn't dangerous, but it also won't give Eike a chance to see Mathilde cast magic which is what makes some people want to have her join the action.
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Well it's not why I wanted her to join and to be honest I don't actually see that her watching someone cast would do much for her, I think the main benefit remains helping her get her in tune with Mathilde's view on Ulgu.

LightLan said:
no, she tests the altered version.

There may or may not be changes to the spell with codifying it too.
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Where are you getting the idea the spell will be altered, the whole idea is that she's trying to explain what's she's doing so that other people can understand it, not making a new spell.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Where are you getting the idea the spell will be altered, the whole idea is that she's trying to explain what's she's doing so that other people can understand it, not making a new spell.
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Yes and to do that she needs to write it down with only College-used vocabulary.

Even the parts that are her own understanding which vocabulary doesn't truly exist for.

How well that goes will depend upon rolls.

Rolling well may mean no changes.

Rolling terrible may mean changes. Perhaps more strenuous to cast, perhaps only usable around dusk and dawn (like one of our previous versions), perhaps it goes higher on the battle magic chart than it currently is. Who knows? Boney might.

Boney said:
Depends how well the codifying goes. If it results in something straightforward then you've just got to write it down and submit it and that can be done as part of the action, but if you have to get really complicated with it you need to wrap it in metaphor and mnemonics for it to be transmissible to anyone who isn't a hardcore aethyric theory nerd, so that will be a separate thing.
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Thomasfoolery said:
Where are you getting the idea the spell will be altered, the whole idea is that she's trying to explain what's she's doing so that other people can understand it, not making a new spell.
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Translating the spell from instinct and gut feeling to words and symbols anyone can understand might end up changing the spell itself. If we're lucky, the codified version will be better/stronger/easier to cast than our version. If we're unlucky, the codified version may be nearly useless.
 
LightLan said:
Rolling terrible may mean changes. Perhaps more strenuous to cast, perhaps only usable around dusk and dawn (like one of our previous versions), perhaps it goes higher on the battle magic chart than it currently is. Who knows? Boney might.
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Potentially, but what the actually means is people are casting the same spell, just doing it worse, so getting an inferior result. Since Mathilde will know exactly what she meant when she makes these metaphors she'd just cast the original version.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Translating the spell from instinct and gut feeling to words and symbols anyone can understand might end up changing the spell itself. If we're lucky, the codified version will be better/stronger/easier to cast than our version. If we're unlucky, the codified version may be nearly useless.
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I don't remember seeing anything at all hinting the spell itself might change, do you have any quotes on this?
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
Potentially, but what the actually means is people are casting the same spell, just doing it worse. Since Mathilde will know exactly what she meant when she makes these metaphors she'd just cast the original version.
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No.

Other people can't cast the same spell as Mathilde does.
They don't have her arcane marks or her very personal understanding of ulgu.

They need a generalized version.
Which essentially means it is a different spell.

Boney said:
Yeah. The process of making it so that someone else who isn't intimately familiar with your mindset can understand the spell is codifying it.
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Thomasfoolery said:
Well it's not why I wanted her to join and to be honest I don't actually see that her watching someone cast would do much for her, I think the main benefit remains helping her get her in tune with Mathilde's view on Ulgu.
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If codifying work is purely theoretical then I don't think that Eike - whose knowledge of spellcasting includes two petty magic spells - will be at all capable of grasping anything. This isn't literally the most advanced stuff there is, but it's up there.
Thomasfoolery said:
Where are you getting the idea the spell will be altered, the whole idea is that she's trying to explain what's she's doing so that other people can understand it, not making a new spell.
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I'm pretty sure Boney said that if the codifying goes exceptionally well the spell may end up being Fiendishly Complex rather than BM, but I can't find the source for that. Does anyone have a quote?
 
LightLan said:
No.

Other people can't cast the same spell as Mathilde does.
They don't have her arcane marks or her very personal understanding of ulgu.

They need a generalized version.
Which essentially means it is a different spell.
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Yeah, I'll repeat my question to Nerdasaurus, because I remember nothing at all from boney saying codifying is actually making a different spell. And in fact that makes zero sense to me that she could even do that. What I actually remember is either Mathilde finds a way to let people understand what she's doing, or it just doesn't doesn't work, which is very common and why not many spells are actually codified.

mathymancer said:
If codifying work is purely theoretical then I don't think that Eike - whose knowledge of spellcasting includes two petty magic spells - will be at all capable of grasping anything. This isn't literally the most advanced stuff there is, but it's up there.
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Magic is not just like math though, Eike doesn't necessarily need to have a masters to learn anything from watching a Doctoral thesis.
 
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mathymancer said:
I'm pretty sure Boney said that if the codifying goes exceptionally well the spell may end up being Fiendishly Complex rather than BM, but I can't find the source for that. Does anyone have a quote?
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Boney said:
Too many variables for there to be one answer. Different people with different paradigms have different levels of difficulty translating their spells into something communicable, and experience as a teacher or deep knowledge of magical theory or knowing multiple magical languages can (not will, can) make it easier. And whether a Battle Magic spell is actually 'true' Battle Magic or just an inefficiently codified spell that has sub-BM level effects is always open to debate.
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Did you mean this?
Boney said:
Those numbers are without the staff, and will be what the codified version would be unless you do exceptionally well or badly at the codification.
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Or this?

Thomasfoolery said:
Yeah, I'll repeat my question to Nerdasaurus, because I remember nothing at all from boney saying codifying is actually making a different spell. And in fact that makes zero sense to me that she could even do that. What I actually remember is either Mathilde finds a way to let people understand what she's doing, or it just doesn't doesn't work, which is very common and why not many spells are actually codified.
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Boney said:
Spend an AP to get it started, and whether that's all it takes or whether it will take more time or a restructuring of the spell or similar will be uncovered by that action.
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Here, a complete restructuring of the spell is possible if we roll badly enough.
 
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Okay, you know how film adaptions are always different from the book, because they are translations from text to visual media, and things are lost and added and changed? Well, it's an absolutely terrible metaphor, but it's the best way I can think off to describe how the codification of a spell works.

So will the codified version of Rite of Way be different from Mathilde's version? Hopefully not, but we won't know until we try it, and that could take several rounds of trial and error casting, which might be dangerous for bystanders, which links back to the original point of maybe we shouldn't have Eike standing nearby as we experiment with battle magic.
 
LightLan said:
Here, a complete restructuring of the spell is possible if we roll badly enough.
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Appreciate it, so it is a possible outcome, but that would be a different AP, so the casting concern wouldn't be happening during this action either way I guess.

To be honest though I feel like cutting the spell apart and trying to rework it likely isn't worth the time as it would probably just be a worse spell overall (and still might fail to codify) and wouldn't be very inclined invest more at that point.
 
Tasoli said:
Can I get a quote of that? I think I might be okay with that depending the severity of the boon.

Like if it is something that can be done with minor boon I would be alright with going to debt of Belegar for example if his boon works so to speak. We can pay him back at somepoint in the future once we are done with Waystones even if it costs an AP or two. Edit: We also have pending favors which might pay it off. Even if one of them looks like it will be pending forever since Kragg has sealed the axe.
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Here:
Mopman43 said:
@BoneyM, how much favor is it to get the chance to study the crown?
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Boney said:
5 favour per AP spent with it, and it can't leave the Karaz-a-Karak vault it's stored in.
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Thomasfoolery said:
To be honest though I feel like cutting the spell apart and trying to rework it likely isn't worth the time as it would probably just be a worse spell overall (and still might fail to codify) and wouldn't be very inclined invest more at that point.
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Dude what do you mean not worth it. The spell means we can create fog bridge to Eonir for trade which is badly needed.
Blackout said:
Here:
Boney said:
5 favour per AP spent with it, and it can't leave the Karaz-a-Karak vault it's stored in.
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We have broken favor scale since then. Also interesting note is the next post which is one of mine which I forgot about;
Tasoli said:
Lets make million reproductions of it and sell it to everyone.

For lulz.
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I still find this amusing as hell. We really should just do it.
 
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Glau said:
I feel like getting the fire spire back on it's feet might be a webmat sort of a side project.
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Is refounding the Spire a realistic prospect?

The disparate magical traditions that it was founded on have mostly been sucked up by the Colleges. The Hag and Ice Witches at large aren't going to be any more fond of it.

I suppose we could found a chapter of WEB-MAT in Kislev for interdisciplinary cooperation with any Witches that are willing, but we'd really need to thread the needle on that one to avoid issues. And Pragg is the last place in Kislev we should be establishing any magical institutions.
 
Tasoli said:
Dude what do you mean not worth it. The spell means we can create fog bridge to Eonir for trade which is badly needed.
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Trying to rework the spell has no guarantees. It's not like Mathilde purposefully made the spell hard to understand to start with. She also actually rolled quite well for the most part. I would expect a rework to be quite a bit worse if she could even get it all to work as she'd be working with less comfortable to her metaphors and such, and would probably be multiple AP to accomplish, after which she would be right back to square one of trying to codify it which may or may not work.
 
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