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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Talon TigerDino said:
Yeah, if things like lore of the Wilds is Dhar+Ghur in the same way that Necromancy is Dhar+Shyish, then it really seems that Necromancy is the king of Dhar+Wind combos.
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I think the strength and versatility of a lore/school of magic has more to do with what you're doing with the magic than the type(s) of magic itself, and say what you want about his personality, but Nagash was a magical genius.
 
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Nehekharans used (and still use) not only Death but also Light, so I wonder what a world where Nagash had gone with Hysh would look like. If he'd still been a magically-talented dick with the hubris to create an entire Lore.

Maybe instead of undead, he'd find a way of remaking living people into beings of purity that don't know emotions or attachments, and which would also heed the will of their summoners? Maybe something like FF14 Shadowbringer's Sin-Eaters? I find it a delicious mental image.
 
Hysh can actually turn into Dhar without another if left to stagnate for long enough. (The fact that only Hysh does this, while the other seven Winds in the experiment stayed Dhar-free, isn't actually an indication of something different about Hysh, but rather a failure of the wizard running the experiment to consider mouse infestations in his buildings)
 
Parabola said:
Nehekharans used (and still use) not only Death but also Light, so I wonder what a world where Nagash had gone with Hysh would look like. If he'd still been a magically-talented dick with the hubris to create an entire Lore.

Maybe instead of undead, he'd find a way of remaking living people into beings of purity that don't know emotions or attachments, and which would also heed the will of their summoners? Maybe something like FF14 Shadowbringer's Sin-Eaters? I find it a delicious mental image.
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Ironically, Nagash still uses Hysh, at least according to the End Times rulebook. He's a Level 5 Wizard who uses the Lores of Light, Death, Vampires, Undeath and Nehekhara.
 
Grytorm said:
You're probably right. I had actually entirely forgotten what sorts of spells that Ruin is actually capable of. I suggested Metal because I associate Ruin with Warlock Engineers who are all techy crafts people. And the word Ruin makes me think of more Metal orientated effects.
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Given how Skaven are, Ruin could very well be Chamon + Azyr + Dhar (metaphorically, Chamon as a clamp plus Azyr as a tool (probably a dremel or something ludicrous like that) to machine the Dhar). Like, completely ludicrous, incredibly dangerous, but... it just might work...
 
Grytorm said:
and Plague might fit with Ghyran+Dhar.
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Oh it certainly fits. The Lore of Nurgle is stated to use Ghyran in WFRP 4e, and the Lore of Plague is conceptually almost identical. WFRP 4e: The Horned Rat Companion says that Dhar is used in the Lore of Plague, but doesn't mention other winds, only that it's refining Dhar. However, I personally wouldn't think it a far stretch to say Ghyran's what's being used for the refinement process.

Mopman43 said:
You think Chamon for Ruin?

If it's any Wind I'd figure Azyr, given spells like Warp Lightning and Howling Warpgale.
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I think the Lore of Ruin is pure Dhar. HRC doesn't mention the use of any wind, even Dhar, saying instead that it's channelling the power of warpstone. You do have electricity spells, and Howling Warpgale is there, but you also have Crack's Call and and Scorch, which are more Hysh and Aqshy, respectively.

The Lore of Ruin focuses on destruction and disintegration, and my take is that it primarily takes the form of electric attacks because that embodies destruction most for skaven; just look at their warp-lightning cannons and their moonbreaker cannon.
 
Since I was rereading the part where people were talking about the supposed Reman Empire, a handful of notes I suppose may or may not be relevant discovered as I was working on Estalia Quest:

1. There was a Myrmidian realm of a united Estalia+Tilea
2. Myrmidia was incarnated in either Remas, hence the Omphalos (The incarnation is old canon, but the Omphalos is to my understanding 4E?) or in Magritta (Hence the Archecclesiatium, which the structure is definitely newer canon but the incarnation once again is not), which has proven a point of contention since her death and is why Remas serves as the center of her cult in Tilea while Magritta is in Estalia
3. Imperial Scholars deeply enjoy saying the stupidest fucking things you've ever heard about her (this is not relevant, but I could not let it go)
4. Myrmidian artifacts have been located near Altdorf.

And then there are a fraction of Warhammer fans who seem to believe that hackneyed historical references are peak Warhammer so Reman Empire it is. I have my own opinions but as they are spoilers for Estalia Quest I will not be sharing them here. Certainly even in the case where she were Tilean however, I would like to think it would be more complicated than just "LMAO Reman Empire."

Most of this is drawing from Tome of Salvation. Gonna be busy today but if, for one reason or another, you would like me to cite a specific page or statement, I will get to it at some point.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
What kind of stupid things? I'm morbidly curious.
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"Myrmidia can't be the daughter of Morr and Verena"
1. Why?
2. Good job, you've now pissed off the largest cult in the Old World

"So she must just be an ascended mortal like Sigmar"
1. Why?
2. Congratulations, now you've just pissed off the most powerful cult in your neck of the woods

(There's lots of other dribble that falls out of their mouths but uh, those stick with me since they were in the source I was actually looking at)
 
Voikirium said:
Since I was rereading the part where people were talking about the supposed Reman Empire, a handful of notes I suppose may or may not be relevant discovered as I was working on Estalia Quest:

1. There was a Myrmidian realm of a united Estalia+Tilea
2. Myrmidia was incarnated in either Remas, hence the Omphalos (The incarnation is old canon, but the Omphalos is to my understanding 4E?) or in Magritta (Hence the Archecclesiatium, which the structure is definitely newer canon but the incarnation once again is not), which has proven a point of contention since her death and is why Remas serves as the center of her cult in Tilea while Magritta is in Estalia
3. Imperial Scholars deeply enjoy saying the stupidest fucking things you've ever heard about her (this is not relevant, but I could not let it go)
4. Myrmidian artifacts have been located near Altdorf.

And then there are a fraction of Warhammer who seem to believe that hackneyed historical references are peak Warhammer so Reman Empire it is. I have my own opinions but as they are spoilers for Estalia Quest I will not be sharing them here. Certainly even in the case where she were Tilean however, I would like to think it would be more complicated than just "LMAO Reman Empire."

Most of this is drawing from Tome of Salvation. Gonna be busy today but if, for one reason or another, you would like me to cite a specific page or statement, I will get to it at some point.
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There's a reference way back in 1989 about a Reman Empire existing a thousand years prior to Sigmar. People like to then associate that with newer lore about Myrmidia and etc, and her conquest doesn't seem to have predated Sigmar.

(It's outright stated in 4e that it doesn't, though Up In Arms is also the first place I've seen since 1989 to actually use the phrase 'Reman Empire', which it used when talking about Myrmidia's)
 
Mopman43 said:
There's a reference way back in 1989 about a Reman Empire existing a thousand years prior to Sigmar. People like to then associate that with newer lore about Myrmidia and etc, and her conquest doesn't seem to have predated Sigmar.

(It's outright stated in 4e that it doesn't, though Up In Arms is also the first place I've seen since 1989 to actually use the phrase 'Reman Empire', which it used when talking about Myrmidia's)
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>People just crowbarring in outdated, obsoleted, and incoherent lore from 30+ years ago

Oh My Favorite
 
Voikirium said:
"Myrmidia can't be the daughter of Morr and Verena"
1. Why?
2. Good job, you've now pissed off the largest cult in the Old World

"So she must just be an ascended mortal like Sigmar"
1. Why?
2. Congratulations, now you've just pissed off the most powerful cult in your neck of the woods

(There's lots of other dribble that falls out of their mouths but uh, those stick with me since they were in the source I was actually looking at)
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I feel the need to clarify that given the formatting and positioning and context of the said statement, a paragraph about how the Empire is xenophobic towards Myrmidia and Myrmidians, this is pretty clearly supposed to be an "oh those racist wacky Imperials" thing and not some kind of like, Dark Hidden Truth that the Sigmarites and Myrmidians are covering up.
 
If I remember correctly, Mrymidia is a fairly "new" goddess to the Empire, with her faith only really gaining traction in the wake of the Great War Against Chaos.

I can't check now because I'm at work, but I believe that the Priory of the Spear—who are Mrymidian vampire hunters—set up a branch in Nuln ages back, partly as an emergency "our eggs are in two baskets now" and partly because Sylvaina is just a stone's throw away, but when Magnus sent out the call for arms they were like "well, the vampires haven't stirred for centuries, and chaos is right there, so why not". And because they joined with Magnus, their faith and their Goddess gained enought respect to start spreading through the Empire proper—much to the annoyance of the Sigmarites, who see a foreign Goddess of Civilization muscling in on territory controlled by their own, native God of Civilization.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
If I remember correctly, Mrymidia is a fairly "new" goddess to the Empire, with her faith only really gaining traction in the wake of the Great War Against Chaos.

I can't check now because I'm at work, but I believe that the Priory of the Spear—who are Mrymidian vampire hunters—set up a branch in Nuln ages back, partly as an emergency "our eggs are in two baskets now" and partly because Sylvaina is just a stone's throw away, but when Magnus sent out the call for arms they were like "well, the vampires haven't stirred for centuries, and chaos is right there, so why not". And because they joined with Magnus, their faith and their Goddess gained enought respect to start spreading through the Empire proper—much to the annoyance of the Sigmarites, who see a foreign Goddess of Civilization muscling in on territory controlled by their own, native God of Civilization.
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They've had a military academy established in Nuln for a long while; can't remember exactly how long, but at some point after the wars with Araby.

(It's a front for the Knights of Magritta, an Estalian secret society based around Estalian unification and preparing for Araby to invade again, which has been floundering due to Araby's millennia-long history of not-doing-that)
 
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Its actually really silly that Myrmidia has relatively minor presence in the empire considering that the professional military that Empire keeps is lot closer in spirit to Myrmidian warfare doctrine than it is to Ulrics and by extension Sigmars.
 
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Mopman43 said:
They've had a military academy established in Nuln for a long while; can't remember exactly how long, but at some point after the wars with Araby.

(It's a front for the Knights of Magritta, an Estalian secret society based around Estalian unification and preparing for Araby to invade again, which has been floundering do to Araby's millennia-long history of not-doing-that)
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Ah, that's what I was thinking of, not the Priory of the Spear. Yeah, I think I remember something about how the Nuln chapter has started to pivot towards fighting chaos instead of their ancestral enemies because one is significantly more active than the other.

Must have gotten it conflated with the vampire hunters in my head. I didn't have a chance to fact check myself before I posted, which is usually a sign that I shouldn't post, but work has been incredibly dull today and I've been seeking any distraction possible.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Ah, that's what I was thinking of, not the Priory of the Spear. Yeah, I think I remember something about how the Nuln chapter has started to pivot towards fighting chaos instead of their ancestral enemies because one is significantly more active than the other.
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Yeah, and the Bretonnian chapter wants to actually put in work to unify Estalia, and I think the Tilean chapter just wants to make money?

(Though I think the Empire chapter pivoting to Chaos was specifically a reaction to the Storm of Chaos)

The biggest Myrmidian influence in the Empire is probably the Knights of the Blazing Sun? I'm pretty sure their early support for Magnus is stated to be the reason that the Cult of Myrmidia has a spot at the Grand Conclave every five years.
 
Mopman43 said:
The biggest Myrmidian influence in the Empire is probably the Knights of the Blazing Sun? I'm pretty sure their early support for Magnus is stated to be the reason that the Cult of Myrmidia has a spot at the Grand Conclave every five years.
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That is indeed the case. Prior to gaining a spot at the Grand Conclave, the greatest concentration of Myrmidians in the Empire was the Knights of the Blazing Sun, and most of the time they wander about in small groups or alone enacting Seven Samurai scripts against goblins, beastmen, orcs and whatever else decides to threaten small villages they're passing through.
 
pucflek said:
Its actually really silly that Myrmidia has relatively minor province in the empire considering that the professional military that Empire keeps is lot closer in spirit to Myrmidian warfare doctrine than it is to Ulrics and by extension Sigmars.
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One could choose to emphasize the portions that are more Sigmarite and Ulrican in nature (or indeed to revise if that is to your taste).
 
pucflek said:
Its actually really silly that Myrmidia has relatively minor presence in the empire considering that the professional military that Empire keeps is lot closer in spirit to Myrmidian warfare doctrine than it is to Ulrics and by extension Sigmars.
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Prior to Magnus the "Empire" was in a three ways civil war headed by three of the dominant religions. Myrmidia not having a big presence seems to be an artifact of the Wolf/Hammer/Stag emperor/empress not wanting to invite another religion to split their power.
 
Ulric and Sigmar are homegrown Gods. They originate in the Empire and there are bloodlines of people from the first tribes who dedicated their lives to them. Myrmidia is a foreign goddess. The citizens of the Empire don't even know that Myrmidia is a Goddess of Civilisation, they just think she's a Goddess of War, completely missing the forest for the trees, and the Myrmidians haven't done a great job of remedying that because most of it is tied to their cultural identity, which the Empire doesn't care about.

This isn't even taking into account that Ulric and Sigmar followers are already butting heads over who's boss. Their churches certainly won't tolerate a competitor getting into the ring.
 
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