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So a third of a gallon of AV creates a liminal realm about 2 cubic meters in size.

How much AV would be needed to create something the size of the Grey College, and where did Teclis get that from?
Well Teclis had access to a full set of Orbs of Sorcery so he had those aiding him when he created the Grey College.
You know, Mathilde is also going to have access to a full set of Orbs of Sorcery and she has the ability to create a liminal realm. Maybe she should combine the two? Research if a full set of Morbs or powerstones aid in the formation of a liminal realm.
 
Everytime the thread mentions the EverMammoth, I get reminded of the (Father of?) Mammoths that appeared in RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR, and now I think the two are the same.
Iirc the father of mammoths was worshipped as a god. Then he got broken by a Chaos dude and the tribe fell to chaos.

I'm rooting for Snerra befriending the guy and bringing mammoths to karaz-ankor.
 
Well Teclis had access to a full set of Orbs of Sorcery so he had those aiding him when he created the Grey College.
You know, Mathilde is also going to have access to a full set of Orbs of Sorcery and she has the ability to create a liminal realm. Maybe she should combine the two? Research if a full set of Morbs or powerstones aid in the formation of a liminal realm.

Orbs/Powerstones do 'soften' reality around them, IIRC, so trying this first with powerstones and then after we've made the Orbs might be interesting to see if the same amount of AV makes a larger liminal realm.
 
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Neither. Reporting that Mathilde has been in contact with a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch means reporting that she has been in contact with a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch. There are no standard responses or automatic implications in that message because that sort of thing is an enormous vulnerability to Tzeentchian shenanigans, the matter is brought to the attention of those higher in the heirarchy so they can decide whether and what to do about it.
I'm not sure that's exactly what he's asking, it seems he's asking how Mathilde herself would present it, which I think would probably be less about standard responses and more about our own character. Since there is a difference between if Mathilde presents herself as potentially subverted, and Mathilde confirming she's made contact with an enemy, and there is some potential for being compromised.
 
We should probably do some research on warding daemons before we try to make another liminal realm (possibly after the remains of the previous one have fully healed).
 
So just to be clear, you think it is all over reacting and there is no possibility of the Grey College taking this badly?

No, I'm saying that Mathilde's opinion on the subject is unreliable. I suspect they won't take it that badly, but I could be wrong and that wasn't my point. The question asked was how they could take it well when Mathilde herself thought they'd take it badly and I pointed out that Mathilde's opinion on the specific subject of people trusting her was unreliable.

The reason I am asking this is that the very argument you make about Mathilde's insecurity means that if she does trust them and they take it badly it will be all the more devastating, it will be proof that 'no they do not trust you even when you show them trust'

I don't think Mathilde is gonna tell anyone anything in this regard in the expectation it will be taken well. She's a pessimist here expecting the worst possible result in terms of their reactions to her and if she tells people, she is doing so in the expectation of that result but belief that she should do so anyway.

She will not feel betrayed by their lack of trust because it is the result she is expecting. She would be shocked by a show of trust under these circumstances.

Also, I don't think Mathilde actually cares, on an emotional level, that much if people in general (as opposed to a few specific people) trust her. She considers herself extremely sketchy and doesn't have a lot of ego wrapped up in being perceived as trustworthy. She cares about trustworthiness in practice because it's useful to her work to be trusted, but it doesn't seem like it's actually a big deal to her emotionally.
 
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So, with us telling the Colleges pretty much a certainty, I want us to consider another decision we need to make in handling this mess: will this effect Mathilde's willingness to fight Tzeentchian forces in the future?

To be clear, I'm not saying that Mathilde should go hunt Chaos cults because of this. But Mathilde fights enemies sometimes, and sometimes those enemies might be Chaos servants, and sometime Mathilde needs to prioritize dealing with one group or another. Do servants of Tzeentch get a higher priority now? A lower priority, because we don't want our scary new trait to act up? Do we roll a die, to avoid having our decision tainted by the knowledge that we have the Plotter's eye on us?

This isn't just an idle question. There's already a matter that we considered getting involved with to which this question applies:
"Iron Orcs," the Duke says. "Like Black Orcs, but with the armour set into their skin, bearing runes of the Dark Gods.
Remember that Mathilde found out in the Mugging of Mork that the Black Orcs as a whole are a Tzeentch plot. Does this visit by a servant of Tzeentch makes the Iron Orcs a higher priority, or a lower one? If we find out that the Iron Orcs are divided into groups serving individual Chaos Gods do we avoid the Tzeentchian ones, or seek them out?

It might be that this sort of thing was part of the demon's plan. We can decide to act or not to act on the 'information' it gave us, but we can't not know that we are Fated.
 
So, with us telling the Colleges pretty much a certainty, I want us to consider another decision we need to make in handling this mess: will this effect Mathilde's willingness to fight Tzeentchian forces in the future?

It shouldn't. We should continue with reasoned threat analysis as usual, and honestly using magic to fight Tzeentch sorcerers was always a not-great life choice and we have a sword. Killing them with a sword is unaffected by the Fated thing and was always gonna be our best bet.

For non-sorcerers (likely including the Iron Orcs)...this really doesn't change much of anything.
 
It shouldn't. We should continue with reasoned threat analysis as usual, and honestly using magic to fight Tzeentch sorcerers was always a not-great life choice and we have a sword. Killing them with a sword is unaffected by the Fated thing and was always gonna be our best bet.

For non-sorcerers (likely including the Iron Orcs)...this really doesn't change much of anything.
This is easy to say and impossible to actually do. Not thinking about the fact at all is as simple as not thinking of pink elephants. You can say that it doesn't effect your analysis at all, but you can't actually know that.
And I think any servant of Tzeentech will use magic. Even if the Iron Orcs don't cast magic themselves, their runed armour could have magical effects that count as Tzeentchian sorcery. Or they could have a shaman using some sort of Chaos corrupted version of the Waaagh.
 
No, I'm saying that Mathilde's opinion on the subject is unreliable. I suspect they won't take it that badly, but I could be wrong and that wasn't my point. The question asked was how they could take it well when Mathilde herself thought they'd take it badly and I pointed out that Mathilde's opinion on the specific subject of people trusting her was unreliable.

So Mathilde is compromised for emotional reasons that have to do with her traumatic childhood, but...

I don't think Mathilde is gonna tell anyone anything in this regard in the expectation it will be taken well. She's a pessimist here expecting the worst possible result in terms of their reactions to her and if she tells people, she is doing so in the expectation of that result but belief that she should do so anyway.

She will not feel betrayed by their lack of trust because it is the result she is expecting. She would be shocked by a show of trust under these circumstances.

Also, I don't think Mathilde actually cares, on an emotional level, that much if people in general (as opposed to a few specific people) trust her. She considers herself extremely sketchy and doesn't have a lot of ego wrapped up in being perceived as trustworthy. She cares about trustworthiness in practice because it's useful to her work to be trusted, but it doesn't seem like it's actually a big deal to her emotionally.

...she does not actually crave trust and a loss of trust that is 'expected' will in no way harm her. Yeah I do not think I buy this like at all, if she is so emotionally compromised that her professional judgement as a Grey Wizard is warped that further conformation of her biases will lead to further warping. Also I think it should be noted that we are not planning to shout about the Daemon in the Aldorf marketplace. We would be telling 'a few specific people' and those people will have the chance to either surprise her with her trust or confirm by their reactions that they do not think Mathilde is trustworthy.

Someone like Algard may be able to hide a loss of trust, but Belegar sure would not, his intrigue is only good by dwarf standards

So, with us telling the Colleges pretty much a certainty, I want us to consider another decision we need to make in handling this mess: will this effect Mathilde's willingness to fight Tzeentchian forces in the future?

To be clear, I'm not saying that Mathilde should go hunt Chaos cults because of this. But Mathilde fights enemies sometimes, and sometimes those enemies might be Chaos servants, and sometime Mathilde needs to prioritize dealing with one group or another. Do servants of Tzeentch get a higher priority now? A lower priority, because we don't want our scary new trait to act up? Do we roll a die, to avoid having our decision tainted by the knowledge that we have the Plotter's eye on us?

This isn't just an idle question. There's already a matter that we considered getting involved with to which this question applies:

Remember that Mathilde found out in the Mugging of Mork that the Black Orcs as a whole are a Tzeentch plot. Does this visit by a servant of Tzeentch makes the Iron Orcs a higher priority, or a lower one? If we find out that the Iron Orcs are divided into groups serving individual Chaos Gods do we avoid the Tzeentchian ones, or seek them out?

It might be that this sort of thing was part of the demon's plan. We can decide to act or not to act on the 'information' it gave us, but we can't not know that we are Fated.

I think the odds of Iron Orcs getting assigned an AP in the next several turns are too remote to worry about it. AP hell just got worse because people are going to want to take praying action, Panorania cuddling an action and what have you.
 
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So Mathilde is compromised for emotional reasons that have to do with her traumatic childhood, but...

...she does not actually crave trust and a loss of trust that is 'expected' will in no way harm her. Yeah I do not think I buy this like at all, if she is so emotionally compromised that her professional judgement as a Grey Wizard is warped that further conformation of her biases will lead to further warping.

There's actually a lot of reasons why Mathilde might feel she is untrustworthy and people shouldn't trust her including her childhood, the Liber Mortis, and a bunch of other stuff. There's a reason I said it might have to do with her childhood, not that it 100% did have to do with it.

Her emotional damage in this area is very specific, like that of a lot of real people. She clearly does not view herself as someone who people will, or perhaps even should, trust and thus constantly underestimates the degree to which they do indeed trust her since it goes against that self image. And her self-image is not one she's unhappy with for the most part, so she's not broken up about it, but it is one that's slightly off from reality and that can cause her to slightly misjudge people's reactions to her.

She's not upset when people don't trust her, she just, on some gut level, doesn't believe they will, whether that's true or not.

Also I think it should be noted that we are not planning to shout about the Daemon in the Aldorf marketplace. We would be telling 'a few specific people' and those people will have the change to either surprise her with her trust or confirm by their reactions that they do not think Mathilde is trustworthy.

Someone like Algard may be able to hide a loss of trust, but Belegar sure would not, his intrigue is only good by dwarf standards

I'm aware she's telling a very select group of people here, I'm just saying I'm not sure she has an emotional investment in most of those people trusting her. Sure, she'd care if Belegar stopped trusting her...but her relationship with Algard is professional rather than personal in the same way, and ditto the rest of the college for the most part. I think the only person whose opinion she cares about on a personal, emotional, level in the entire Grey College is probably Regimand. She'd obviously prefer they trust her for practical reasons, but I don't feel like there's strong emotional stakes there for that situation.
 
I agree, there are good ways to present it and ways that even a bad presentation will be salvaged by a good reaction, but both of those will be rolls. Just look at the Mork stuff only now it's chaos and there is no Gunnars to save us in Aldorf.
This situation is rather less serious than that one, what with us not having been literally possessed by an intrinsically inimical foreign god. We came clean with the Dwarves then, back when they had far less reason to cut us slack. I can't imagine the "Just trust me" DC will somehow be higher now.
 
I think the odds of Iron Orcs getting assigned an AP in the next several turns are too remote to worry about it. AP hell just got worse because people are going to want to take praying action, Panorania cuddling an action and what have you.

I've been pushing the iron orcs for a while now, and it's been a bit of an uphill battle to even get the thread to consider it.

At minimum, I don't expect we'll be able to do it until we complete our sword style, and the threat of Tzeentchian sorcery might just put that off forever, which I'm very sad about.
 
There's actually a lot of reasons why Mathilde might feel she is untrustworthy and people shouldn't trust her including her childhood, the Liber Mortis, and a bunch of other stuff. There's a reason I said it might have to do with her childhood, not that it 100% did have to do with it.

Her emotional damage in this area is very specific, like that of a lot of real people. She clearly does not view herself as someone who people will, or perhaps even should, trust and thus constantly underestimates the degree to which they do indeed trust her since it goes against that self image. And her self-image is not one she's unhappy with for the most part, so she's not broken up about it, but it is one that's slightly off from reality and that can cause her to slightly misjudge people's reactions to her.

She's not upset when people don't trust her, she just, on some gut level, doesn't believe they will, whether that's true or not.



I'm aware she's telling a very select group of people here, I'm just saying I'm not sure she has an emotional investment in most of those people trusting her. Sure, she'd care if Belegar stopped trusting her...but her relationship with Algard is professional rather than personal in the same way, and ditto the rest of the college for the most part. I think the only person whose opinion she cares about on a personal, emotional, level in the entire Grey College is probably Regimand. She'd obviously prefer they trust her for practical reasons, but I don't feel like there's strong emotional stakes there for that situation.

I think you are minimizing a whole lot here, the Grey College was her home and her shield after she was almost burned at the stake, I find the idea that she would not care about being institutionally distrusted specifically because she showed trust and told them about something highly dubious. But more than than the language you are using seems to be rather underselling things

'she would care if Belegar stopped trusting her'

Given how the utter loss of Belegar's trust would look like I think she would do a hell of a lot more than care, not that I think him no longer trusting her at all is in the cards, but even an obvious loss of trust (and again Belegar is very obvious to Mathilde) would likely hurt her considerably.
 
So some thoughts on the update. I think others may have touched on this as well, but nevertheless:
So if you ignore the names that were so heavily dropped, where does that leave you? You're certainly not going to be able to command any sort of mobilization effort based on 'a Lord of Change told me', but you can add the information in more general form to the greater intelligence apparatus, which will be accumulating bits and pieces like that and will, eventually, reach the point where the omens are unmistakeable and the Empire - hopefully - will get its ducks in a row before half of Kislev is aflame.
But the price of those admissions would be an erosion of trust and repute that you have spent thirty years building. Perhaps not an irreversible one, but you already have a lot of demands on your time without having to reassure your allies of your reliability, and if your Collegiate and Dwarven contributors to the Waystone Project - currently the staunchest members - were to suddenly have reason to distance themselves, that could bring the entire Project into jeopardy. And as for the 'Everchosen' part... you have no idea what the procedure would be if a Wizard tells their superiors that they're in the running to be the next Asavar Kul. You'd like to think that the words of a Tzeentchian Daemon would be automatically disregarded, but the death or imprisonment of a single Wizard, even a Lady Magister, would be a ludicrously cheap price to pay to avert another Great War. And part of you knows you could do a better job of things than a mere upjumped steppe warlord if you put your mind to it. If it weren't yourself that would be on a chopping block, you're not entirely sure you wouldn't come down on the side of averting the risk.
Comparing the sentences above - Mathilde is absolutely certain the words of a Lord of Change can't get a mobilization effort to stop a potential Everchosen (because it's not credible), and yet also suspects that those same words can put a Lord/Lady Magister to death (in the sense of being highly credible). She'd like to think that the words of a daemon world be automatically disregarded, but well, she's spending a lot of time dwelling on them instead of automatically disregarding them. Perhaps more concerning for Mathilde's mental health is the amount of credence she's giving a Lord of Change. She actually believes she herself could be an Everchosen, even without seeing steps that would lead her to becoming one.
 
So some thoughts on the update. I think others may have touched on this as well, but nevertheless:


Comparing the sentences above - Mathilde is absolutely certain the words of a Lord of Change can't get a mobilization effort to stop a potential Everchosen (because it's not credible), and yet also suspects that those same words can put a Lord/Lady Magister to death (in the sense of being highly credible). She'd like to think that the words of a daemon world be automatically disregarded, but well, she's spending a lot of time dwelling on them instead of automatically disregarding them. Perhaps more concerning for Mathilde's mental health is the amount of credence she's giving a Lord of Change. She actually believes she herself could be an Everchosen, even without seeing steps that would lead her to becoming one.

On the last part, that is not a statement about her perceived moral inclination to chaos, it is about her competence. 'I would make a better everchosen than those idiots'. It is the same way one might consider how competent of a serial killer one might be while watching a show about that without actually thinking one has the urge to do so
 
Huh, i had to reread it, because i was under the impression that the realm was still there, but Mathilde had pulled the edges together.

But i was visualising out incorrectly.

I guess another question is if high magic can do a neater job closing it, and if Sarvol would like to try.
High Magic has the Drain Magic Battle Magic spell. So probably?
 
Speculation on Aetheric Vitae, liminal realms, and how a process for safely mining it might play into the fall of the Karaz Ankor's Golden Age.

First, some observations:
  • Thungni discovered the Glittering Realm, Ankor Bryn; Gazul's sword cut it away from the Aether, making it "In and of the material."
  • Thorek called AV "The undifferentiated substance of the Polar Realm." Being someone who got where he is via archaeology into old dwarf runelore this indicates the Dawi of old may have known about to to a good degree.
  • Kragg's repulsion of magic of is sufficient to interact with it, as we see with his displeasure making Mathilde worried he would push it against its container hard enough to destroy it.
  • The Rainbow falls are a font of magic far south of the Chaos Wastes, and quite close to Laurellorn with it's own grand and noteworthy Liminal Realm. Notably, the Smith of Vaul who work in that space, are required to use techniques that sound suspiciously like safety and handling instructions for Aetheric Vitae.
  • Teclis was able to carve out the Grey College's realm and make orbs of sorcery, both properties now associated with the Vitae. Notably, he was able to do so without a major trip back for innumerable tankards of a suspicious and deeply volatile silver liquid.
The latter two points make me suspect that liminal realms are quite important to the normal extraction of Vitae.

So, from those observations, I have a hypothesis as to what the process might have been.

1: Compression of Aetheric Vitae opens doors to new liminal realms,
2: At some point in the process these mini-realms are integrated into the Glittering Realm.
3: More Vitae, by some means, is extracted from the Glittering Realm while the connection remains active.
4: Gazul's techniques burn that mini-realm into reality to seal the breach into the Aether and shore up the defenses.

Rinse and repeat, indefinitely, and as long as you have a stockpile of Aetheric Vitae, it nets you have a technique for reliably, and quite literally, mining more Vitae from the fabric of reality... basically indefinitely.

It could also would be why the Ankor Bryn glittered: Dozens if not hundreds of new realities under supervision of the Runelords of old and their works popping into existence in the darkness, disgorging the vitae anew, scoured by flame into material space, and on and on, indefinitely.

As long as you have spare stockpiles of Aetheric Vitae.

A unwise frog's Continent Shattering Earthquake might be sufficient to detonate all or most of the seed Vitae, especially if further tumults meant any surviving stores needed to be consumed in the heat of the moment.

This would, naturally, degrade both the infrastructure of the Karaz Ankor, and also Runelore itself: Even if Runesmiths were deemed worthy to learn the techniques of using it, there would be nothing left to train them with.
 
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I think you are minimizing a whole lot here, the Grey College was her home and her shield after she was almost burned at the stake, I find the idea that she would not care about being institutionally distrusted specifically because she showed trust and told them about something highly dubious.

The Grey College are paranoia central. Much as she loves them, I'm not sure Mathilde believes they should ever, or will ever, trust literally anyone. She may well even be correct.

There's also the fact that, as you said, this is gonna be a very small group of people, her 'telling the Grey College' is telling Algard and maybe a couple of other people, having the leadership of the Grey College distrust her is very different, emotionally, from having everyone do so, and everyone doing so just isn't in the cards.

But more than than the language you are using seems to be rather underselling things

'she would care if Belegar stopped trusting her'

Given how the utter loss of Belegar's trust would look like I think she would do a hell of a lot more than care, not that I think him no longer trusting her at all is in the cards, but even an obvious loss of trust (and again Belegar is very obvious to Mathilde) would likely hurt her considerably.

Yes? I never said otherwise, I was saying she would care in contrast to her not caring much emotionally if Algard lost some trust in her. Like, the whole point of my phrase was that she was emotionally invested in Belegar's trust in a way she wasn't with most people and it would thus be emotionally damaging if he lost trust in her.

I'm sorry if my language was too clinical, I guess? This is kinda just the way I write and talk.
 
The way I see it is that there are different kinds of trust. Mathilde telling the Grey College about the Greater Demon will lead to distrust and trust.
Distrust in that she had a run in with a Greater Demon of the Plotter and that her actions are now viewed with suspicion.
Trust in that Mathilde is not a person that only cares about her College Rep. That she is willing to bring suspicion and wariness to her actions. That she has trust and faith in the mechanisms of the Colleges. I'd put this trust as a mix between loyalty and reliability. It's important to know if a person is willing to follow procedures and expectations even to their own detriment.
 
The way I see it is that there are different kinds of trust. Mathilde telling the Grey College about the Greater Demon will lead to distrust and trust.
Distrust in that she had a run in with a Greater Demon of the Plotter and that her actions are now viewed with suspicion.
Trust in that Mathilde is not a person that only cares about her College Rep. That she is willing to bring suspicion and wariness to her actions. That she has trust and faith in the mechanisms of the Colleges. I'd put this trust as a mix between loyalty and reliability. It's important to know if a person is willing to follow procedures and expectations even to their own detriment.

I do not think it matters for any practical purposes, there is no difference between distrust of the touch of Chaos and distrust of the person because the touch of Chaos can change who you are as a person.

This is what I mean about the thread not being inhabited by magical super-spies in the war against demon gods, it makes intuitive sense to trust someone more if they bring up something that would be to their disadvantage, but all that goes out the window when the thing they bring up is'I am inherently less trustworthy because of my encounter with conceptual Treason'.
 
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1: Compression of Aetheric Vitae opens doors to new liminal realms,
2: At some point in the process these mini-realms are integrated into the Glittering Realm.
3: More Vitae, by some means, is extracted from the Glittering Realm while the connection remains active.
4: Gazul's techniques burn that mini-realm into reality to seal the breach into the Aether and shore up the defenses.

Just picking up on this single point, but Boney's told us that if you keep ushing even harder with AV you'll eventually punch your way through layers of liminal realms into the Aethyr itself.

That suggests that your step 3 might be able to mine the Aethyr, opening temporary portals there before sealing them shut again.

Of course, this is a high risk tactic, to say the least. Stealing the very stuff of Chaos from under the very noses of the Chaos Gods. Still, there's precedent for Gazul doing so.

The way I see it is that there are different kinds of trust. Mathilde telling the Grey College about the Greater Demon will lead to distrust and trust.
Distrust in that she had a run in with a Greater Demon of the Plotter and that her actions are now viewed with suspicion.
Trust in that Mathilde is not a person that only cares about her College Rep. That she is willing to bring suspicion and wariness to her actions. That she has trust and faith in the mechanisms of the Colleges. I'd put this trust as a mix between loyalty and reliability. It's important to know if a person is willing to follow procedures and expectations even to their own detriment.

There isn't a procedure for this circumstance, beyond leaving it up to the Lord Magister's discretion, precisely so that procedure can't be exploited or turned against the Grey College or used to undermine its members loyalty or leave them open to blackmail.

Mathilde deciding that in her professional judgement it was best not to tell anyone about the encounter with the daemon in case that was the daemon's plan would be 100% in line with the letter and spirit of the College's mechanism, procedures, and expectations.

She's the Lady Magister on the ground. She's the responsible authority. Whatever she decides is the best approach is what the College thinks is appropriate.

This isn't a question of trusting the College or not. We should trust the College. They made the decision that Mathilde was competent to make this kind of call, to keep this kind of secret if she decided she needed to. We should trust their judgement.

This isn't a divided loyalty question, with Mathilde betraying the College in some fashion by not telling them. This is a professional judgement question about what the best way to stymy the daemon's objectives is. If the daemon contacted her to spread disinformation or to try to undermine the Waystone project by undermining her reputation, the Grey College would want her to never mention this to anyone. They practice and understand information compartmentalisation.

Without a compelling reason to share information, it should as a baseline not be shared. That's the default. Worse, as this might be active disinformation produced by an enemy for the purposes of distorting the judgement/biasing the decision of those hearing it, quarantining it may be sensible as its harmful to hear. And this isn't because of info-hazard bullshit, but because of how disinformation can be used to shape subsequent analysis of events even by people who intellectually know to be sceptical of it. Mathilde may think the chance that it's true worth the risks, including the risk that this is designed to poison the well of future intelligence analysis, but that's a professional judgement about an intelligence source. It's not a quasi-moral or emotional judgement about whether she's betraying the Grey College.
 
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