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Mathilde's evaluation of her own trustworthiness is coloured by how the Colleges would, if they had all the facts, probably consider her to have betrayed that trust multiple times over, and would definitely have to disavow her if those facts became public knowledge. Mathilde has succumbed to the temptation of what pretty much every authority in the Empire would categorize as forbidden knowledge on multiple occasions, and though she can justify it to herself, she knows there's a lot of contexts where those justifications won't cut it. She's not thinking 'would this wrongfully colour me as untrustworthy', she's thinking 'would this reveal me as untrustworthy'.

That sort of thing tinging her self-evaluations is the price you pay for having unexpurgated works by three of history's greatest necromancers in her personal library. And OOCly it works out, because having those sorts of things knocking around the place is an excellent reason to be a little more leery of appearing suspect.

Another factor here is that Mathilde wholeheartedly believes that while, of course, she'd never willingly go down that road, she would make an excellent Everchosen. She thinks that's something people might worry about because she thinks the idea should worry them.

I'm not sure that's exactly what he's asking, it seems he's asking how Mathilde herself would present it, which I think would probably be less about standard responses and more about our own character. Since there is a difference between if Mathilde presents herself as potentially subverted, and Mathilde confirming she's made contact with an enemy, and there is some potential for being compromised.

She'd present it as a statement of fact. Something along the lines of: I encountered a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, its words are as squirrelly as you'd expect but I suspect its interest in me has something to do with it being involved in Karak Vlag's predicament, it mentioned that there was an Everchosen on the rise.
 
Wouldn't that simply replicate the effects of the room of utter neutrality?
I'm thinking something similar to plastering over a crack in the wall.
The fluff it has is "The wizard conjures a vortex of anti-magic to calm the battlefield". I read that as being more potent than the Room of Neutrality. The Room is simply an area without natural winds, Drain Magic actively ends magic within it's range.
 
The fluff it has is "The wizard conjures a vortex of anti-magic to calm the battlefield". I read that as being more potent than the Room of Neutrality. The Room is simply an area without natural winds, Drain Magic actively ends magic within it's range.
That's what the room of calamity does iirc, flush all the winds out, ending any magic in its range, though probably through different ways, as the room of calamity doesn't create a vortex
 
That sort of thing tinging her self-evaluations is the price you pay for having unexpurgated works by three of history's greatest necromancers in her personal library. And OOCly it works out, because having those sorts of things knocking around the place is an excellent reason to be a little more leery of appearing suspect.

Thirteenth Everchosen or Nagash V2.0, this time with a decent hat.

You can see why she isn't that interested in the offer. Even Nagash V1 has a much better track record of known success (and hat) than every prior Everchosen put together.

The daemon didn't even bother to tempt her with the forbidden Sorcerous knowledge of the god of sorcery. After all, she's too busy to get around to reading the forbidden lore she already has.
 
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I just realized that if Mathilda did become Everchosen the world might be like really really fucked.

If she went off and masters necromancy to the potency her Shadow Magic is using her big books of evil necromancy + Tzeentch magic + her ability to rip holes in reality that if they're big enough allow Daemons to come through. She's basically capable of summoning hordes of grin lies on her own lol.

@Boney if I remember correctly the quest ends if we start to pursue Chaos or if we fall to Chaos?
 
The daemon didn't even bother to tempt her with the forbidden Sorcerous knowledge of the god or sorcery. After all, she's too busy to get around to reading the forbidden lore she already has.

To be fair it did give us a trait that made Magic easier and more powerful in the presence of corrupt sorcery. Probably doesn't know Mathilde too well if it went for power over knowledge in order to try and tempt her, but at least it tried.
 
If the Daemon knew Mathilde better it would probably like, just tell her about all the Everchosens it didn't like, and off them tjat way. And probably present a "And this is why you should do the best to be the Everchosen" while validating all her choices instead of verbally monolouging at her and telling her she can't prevent the 13th Everchosen or whatever. Maybe even congratulate her on foiling it's plots. But that might be too much for a Tzeentch daemon.
 
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You're certainly not going to be able to command any sort of mobilization effort based on 'a Lord of Change told me', but you can add the information in more general form to the greater intelligence apparatus, which will be accumulating bits and pieces like that and will, eventually, reach the point where the omens are unmistakeable and the Empire - hopefully - will get its ducks in a row before half of Kislev is aflame. And if it turns out to be nothing - there's nothing to say that an Everchosen will always attack the Old World, and several theorists in the field believe that Naggaroth and Cathay have received the brunt of at least a couple - then those armies can go and proactively stamp out a few nascent lesser threats. There's always something out there that could use a taste of steel and gunpowder.
So some thoughts on the update. I think others may have touched on this as well, but nevertheless:


Comparing the sentences above - Mathilde is absolutely certain the words of a Lord of Change can't get a mobilization effort to stop a potential Everchosen (because it's not credible), and yet also suspects that those same words can put a Lord/Lady Magister to death (in the sense of being highly credible). She'd like to think that the words of a daemon world be automatically disregarded, but well, she's spending a lot of time dwelling on them instead of automatically disregarding them. Perhaps more concerning for Mathilde's mental health is the amount of credence she's giving a Lord of Change. She actually believes she herself could be an Everchosen, even without seeing steps that would lead her to becoming one.
That update also says that the Grey College could still make use of the information, and her argument for that is convincing.

I don't think it will ever happen, but I'm half wishing for it just to know how you would write that🙂
 
To be fair it did give us a trait that made Magic easier and more powerful in the presence of corrupt sorcery. Probably doesn't know Mathilde too well if it went for power over knowledge in order to try and tempt her, but at least it tried.
Nah, giving her knowledge wouldn't work.

She's a knowledge seeker.

And they like it when you debase yourself and go against your principles. Shoving knowledge in her head removes her ability to say No. And the chaos gods have a fetish for that.

They want Mathilde to think "I could do awesome(r) magic with the Help of Tzeentch. Lemme learn some."
 
Nah, giving her knowledge wouldn't work.

She's a knowledge seeker.

And they like it when you debase yourself and go against your principles. Shoving knowledge in her head removes her ability to say No. And the chaos gods have a fetish for that.

They want Mathilde to think "I could do awesome(r) magic with the Help of Tzeentch. Lemme learn some."

No, you catch Mathilde with knowledge, you just need to give her incomplete knowledge and quest hooks that she can puzzle over. If the Eye had told us of a Tower in the Chaos Wastes where we could find the secret lore of "the original creators of the waystones" I am convinced half the thread would already be planning the next great northern expedition.
 
No, you catch Mathilde with knowledge, you just need to give her incomplete knowledge and quest hooks that she can puzzle over. If the Eye had told us of a Tower in the Chaos Wastes where we could find the secret lore of "the original creators of the waystones" I am convinced half the thread would already be planning the next great northern expedition.

Nah, 'daemons lie' is an axiomatic belief in all warhammer quests. It would be better off leading us to some source that was not directly Chaos but whose use came with a chance of Chaos corruption. Then we might be willing to roll the dice if the prize was big enough, especially since we know it's not like the Four own your soul with one mutation.
 
I don't like the whole "demons always lie" thing. Demons are perfectly capable of using the truth when it profits them, same as lying.

It's humans who are either compulsive liers or compulsive truth tellers (with very little in the spectrum between them), but demons aren't compelled towards either of those extremes, instead using each one as a tool for maximum gain.
 
I do not think it matters for any practical purposes, there is no difference between distrust of the touch of Chaos and distrust of the person because the touch of Chaos can change who you are as a person.
Not over the course of a single conversation, that took place in a Dhar starved environment, involving a daemon that wasn't even actually physically present. Algard would know this.
 
I don't like the whole "demons always lie" thing. Demons are perfectly capable of using the truth when it profits them, same as lying.

It's humans who are either compulsive liers or compulsive truth tellers (with very little in the spectrum between them), but demons aren't compelled towards either of those extremes, instead using each one as a tool for maximum gain.

Yeah, this. If such a tower containing the secrets of the Waystones actually existed, the best (or worst, for us) thing the Daemon could do is truthfully telling Mathilde about it, because from that moment on, every piece of knowledge on that tower would (understandably!) be considered suspect.
 
I gotta admit, part of me would really love to see where things went if the empire turned on Matty for this or something else and she had to go it alone against the world. Would the thread try to keep her on the straight and narrow, using her skills to help her former friends and allies from the shadows, or would they rage against the betrayal and unleash all the tools she's gathered to carve herself a new place in the world? Or even throw her hands up and just leave, sail with a druuchi raider, go explore the ruined cities of the lizardmen, or take a caravan east to adventure through Cathay. I doubt any break that large will ever happen, but it's fun to think about.
 
Alroght. I want to investigate the trait before revealing anything and the best way to do so is to stay silent for now
[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing
[X] [BELEGAR] Nothing
[X] [COLLEGE] Incoming Everchosen
 
I don't like the whole "demons always lie" thing. Demons are perfectly capable of using the truth when it profits them, same as lying.

It's humans who are either compulsive liers or compulsive truth tellers (with very little in the spectrum between them), but demons aren't compelled towards either of those extremes, instead using each one as a tool for maximum gain.

Daemons don't always lie.Greater Daemons of the chaos god that embodies plotting, lies and treachery have a lot of form for it though.

And it's much less that they always lie but that whatever they say is designed by a super-intelligent precognitive to bring the world closer to its end in a fashion that amuses them (which generally means the least amusing for mortals). It's always harmful to listen to.

That harm can be caused by them lying, telling the truth, or a mixture of the two but it's always something the world would be better off if it had never been spoken.

That's why repeating their words is dangerous, as it gives more opportunities for their plan to succeed, as it magnified the impact their words have on the world.

That risk may be worth it if what they say is critically important enough that you're confident those benefits out way them.

In this case, just one of those risks is the chance of collapsing the Waystone project and probably jeopardising adoption of all Mathilde's other research, including AV.

Is adding another incremental data point to the large range of other evidence that is apparently out there suggesting another Everchosen is incoming within Mathilde's lifetime worth it?

That's the calculation the thread has to make.
 
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I don't like the whole "demons always lie" thing. Demons are perfectly capable of using the truth when it profits them, same as lying.

It's humans who are either compulsive liers or compulsive truth tellers (with very little in the spectrum between them), but demons aren't compelled towards either of those extremes, instead using each one as a tool for maximum gain.

It does not have to be accurate that daemons always lie, the thread would always vote on that premise I think. The reason we are lending any credence to its words here is OOC information.
 
It does not have to be accurate that daemons always lie, the thread would always vote on that premise I think. The reason we are lending any credence to its words here is OOC information.

Yeah. Say that Boney had never given us the OOC information about the Everchosen-bowl.

We'd have a lot more people saying that it took like a line of bullshit designed to appeal to Mathilde's well developed ego.

As a claim out of nowhere it sounds deeply suspicious, a totalising narrative that claims that basically every non-vampire we've fought was actually a rival potential Everchosen that we've triumphed over.

It's something that I suspect would be met by a response analagous to 'I bet you say that to all the girls, fuck off', and we'd proceed to ignore it without the OOC confirmation that some of it is true. I mean, for all we know it made the same pitch to Egrimm last week, telling him that he disqualified Mathilde somehow, say by turning her and Alaric on each other, and he did the sensible thing and just rolled his eyes at the transparent bullshit and ignored it.

I mean, you're a special snowflake and can change the world if you just listen to me and act on what I tell you, is like Tzeentchian corruption 101.
 
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If I had never mentioned Everchosenbowl, people would instead be using Archaon's canonical rise in the next few decades as the OOC reason to believe it to be true. Everchosenbowl didn't actually give any new information to the thread, it removed the false surety of who it would be.
 
Okay, some arguments being made and the latest clarifications made by Boney suggest that it may be time for more divided loyalties.

[X] [BELEGAR] Weakening of reality
[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing

Though the Tzeentch related issues are many and severe, the weakening of reality is the most immediate one and Belegar absolutely deserves to know at least that much.
 
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