Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Can't really say they have a concrete origin. They were first introduced back in 4th Edition as part of Orcs and Goblins I think, but really they're just being carried along by the Waagh rather than sharing a similar origin. I think they're kind of like Griffons in that they're sorta stable chaos mutated creatures. You know, aside from their ridiculous adaptability and the Chaos Trolls.
There's this one quote about the Earth Mother from the Talastein Carvings:
"... the Moist Earth, the Mother of all life [two obscure symbols] Dryad, Naiad, Nymph [list of unknown symbols] Gods [two lines obscured] devastation [crack in stone] came from beyond the [half a line worn away] silver ships [seven unknown symbols] deep waters, fertile, and [three lines worn away] Worship Her [two unknown symbols] nurture Her land [one line worn away] we are Her children, we are the Belthani ..."
And then there's this from Cadaeth:
And also:
So there's a Stele about the Earth Mother which mentions the magical beings that arise in a magical forest such as Athel Loren. There's the Forest of Arden nearby, which Morghur controlled for a while, and Morghur is possibly the same kind of being as the Earth Mother. We have hints of a nature Goddess other than Isha being involved in Athel Loren. This...doesn't give us anything definitive, but there's something there, I think.
The Oberon Stone states that King Taal tried to banish all the other immortals. His court included both Gentle Shallya and Smiling Ranald. It's likely that Ranald and Shallya conspired to destroy Ellinill's children during this period, leaving only a handful of survivors—the Widow and her siblings.
Apologies for double posting, but, uh, is the Ancient Widow Drakira, the Elf Goddess of Vengeance?
Ellinill has five surviving children: Drakira, Queen of Vengence; Addaioth, Bringer of Wrath and Fire; Estreuth, Herald of Famine and Drought; Hukon the Sunderer; and Mathlann, King of Storm and Sea.
Drakira= Ancient Widow
Addaioth=Dazh, God of Fire and Sun
Hukon???=Tor, God of Thunder and Lightning
Estreuth=Ursun, God of Surviving the Winter as a Hibernating Bear
Okay, Hukon is a bit of a stretch—the Sunderer is a god of earthquakes, not lightning. But both are forms of natural destruction, and are loud and obvious. Tor might actually be Mathlann instead (storms), but that raises the question of where Hukon actually is. Either way, the other children line up to Kislev's pantheon quite well. Also, Tor's symbol looks like a simplified version of Hukon's symbol. It's also possible that Hukon's Earthquake aspect comes from the Sundering, and that he may have been unspecified "sundering" before Malekith split Ulthuan in half.
Ellinill has five surviving children: Drakira, Queen of Vengence; Addaioth, Bringer of Wrath and Fire; Estreuth, Herald of Famine and Drought; Hukon the Sunderer; and Mathlann, King of Storm and Sea.
Drakira= Ancient Widow
Addaioth=Dazh, God of Fire and Sun
Hukon???=Tor, God of Thunder and Lightning
Estreuth=Ursun, God of Surviving the Winter as a Hibernating Bear
Okay, Hukon is a bit of a stretch—the Sunderer is a god of earthquakes, not lightning. But both are forms of natural destruction, and are loud and obvious. Tor might actually be Mathlann instead (storms), but that raises the question of where Hukon actually is. Either way, the other children line up to Kislev's pantheon quite well. Also, Tor's symbol looks like a simplified version of Hukon's symbol. It's also possible that Hukon's Earthquake aspect comes from the Sundering, and that he may have been unspecified "sundering" before Malekith split Ulthuan in half.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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You could also make an argument for the Widow as Estreuth, given her association with Winter.
That is an excellent observation. The only problem with it is that it leaves Ursun out in the cold, and at that point my entire theory is in shambles.
... Unless Hurkon is Ursun? No, too much of a stretch, I think.
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Tor is obviously Thor Odinson, on a fight-cation
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Thanks. So it's possible that Norsca was a prison for them, given the way troll country and North seems to be their main stomping grounds?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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Fun fact- followers of Tor are explicitly stated to generally think that hammers are dumb.Tor is obviously Thor Odinson, on a fight-cation
(They also don't like short/one-handed blades in general- officers that follow Tor are less particular but usually still prefer a sabre over something smaller)
You may be correct in that they are possibly stable chaos mutated creatures. As assuming from what I found on the wiki is true, which granted does have the possibility of being wrong. It is noted both in the Chaos trolls section in the Warhammer - The Old World - Lexicanum shpwn below which it cites to be from this source being the site. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440110a&prodId=prod1600004
While all Trolls are by nature originally creatures of Chaos, most Trolls are too stupid to directly look for the favour of the Ruinous Powers, instead rampaging like dumb animals throughout the Old World. However, some Trolls have been more directly touched by the mutating power of Chaos, resulting in breeds more powerful than their lesser kin. Despite retaining their cousins' stupidity, these Chaos Trolls have proven themselves more loyal to the Dark Gods, often fighting in armies side-by-side with their other mortal and daemonic followers.
And in the Warhammerfantasy.fandom here, which cites its source to be this
While all Trolls are by nature originally creatures of Chaos, most Trolls are too stupid to directly look for the favour of the Ruinous Powers, instead rampaging like dumb animals throughout the Old World. However, some Trolls have been more directly touched by the mutating power of Chaos, resulting in breeds more powerful than their lesser kin. Despite retaining their cousins' stupidity, these Chaos Trolls have proven themselves more loyal to the Dark Gods, often fighting in armies side-by-side with their other mortal and daemonic followers.
- Chaos Trolls - While all Trolls are touched by Chaos, some have undergone more direct mutation that has twisted them into even more fearsome and aggressive creatures than normal. They can possess all forms of mutations, two heads being a common affliction. Like all Trolls, they are a terrifyingly powerful, fast-moving creature with flesh that can quickly restore itself, or, to be precise, warp itself into ever more terrible mutations. Unlike most Trolls, however, they literally use vomit as a weapon, acidic bile dissolving the flesh of their puny enemies. They can throw up even more repulsive things, including swathes of carnivorous worms or even the energy of Chaos. While the common River and Stone Trolls ally with Greenskins, these children of Chaos are loyal to their Dark God fathers and they will often accompany the Warriors of Chaos in their campaigns. Unfortunately for the latter, no amount of mutations has managed to cure their stupidity and animosity.[5a]
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I have reservations about several of the initiation options, as they speak primarily to what type of Wizard Eike might be (which she should ultimately determine for herself) without giving a steer on the values- and loyalties- that she could use to make her decisions. Her own values and loyalties have helped steer Mathilde through difficult circumstances many times.
[x] Stirlandian
[x] Yes
And an approval vote for
[x] Religious
[x] Stirlandian
[x] Yes
And an approval vote for
[x] Religious
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GAS MASK MKII TIME BABY
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
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On an entirely different note: am I just crazy or are there like no lakes in Warhammer short of, like, the Black Water?
I mean presumably some exist since, you know, Lady of the Lake and all, but still. It's weird.
I mean presumably some exist since, you know, Lady of the Lake and all, but still. It's weird.
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While I am all for Eike's agency, I do not think it is entirely reasonable to assume she will make that choice in a vacuum. The question 'what aspect of being a wizard does Mathilde want to emphasize to Eike' is I think a valid one. Personally I went secrets because I feel she would enjoy that the most given what her reaction to Ulgu as 'a secret no one else knows' was. Unlike say prank it does not give an inaccurate view of what Mathilde is, more Gandalf, a few small jokes on the side than say Fizban where the jokes and seeming buffoonery are part of the lesson. We are not that.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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Huh. You know, you're not wrong.
Ostermark and Lyonesse are stated to be regions with a lot of lakes, but nothing I can see that show up on maps. No real specific mentions, either.
The only time 'lake' is used in Knights of the Grail is either about the Lady of the Lake, the lake she appeared in to Gilles that no one can find, the lakes of Lyonesse, and the Lakemen, monsters that live in the lakes of Lyonesse.
"The Court Beneath" story from Hammer and Bolter has Louen fight a Necromancer at a lake a days ride north of Couronne*, but it's not named and doesn't appear on any maps.
The map of the Isthmus of Lustria in 8th edition Lizardmen has a number of named lakes, but Black Water might be the only named/appears on maps lake I can find in the Old World.
*He loses to the Necromancer (his father gave him only a handful of knights to help him), falls into the lake, meets the Lady at her court, finds out what happens to male children of Bretonnia with magic (serve the lady as knights personally at her court), then becomes a Grail Knight and goes back to kill the Necromancer at the head of those men while they're all riding sea-monsters
It is a bit weird, but it really depends on the geography and being heavily based on western Europe it is not surprising that there aren't very many lakes in the Old World, since there aren't very many lakes worth talking about in western Europe.
Kislev should have larger ones, though, considering the east-European roots of that part of the setting.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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- Vermont
The word 'lake' does not appear in Realm of the Ice Queen.
The only one I can see on the map is Korv Ozero by Black Blood Pass in the Norscan Mountains (Mathilde took it in-story; it runs from Sjoktraken to Fort Straghov in northern Kislev)
I have no idea where they got this from.
There's nothing quite the same in any of the entries for Trolls in the Chaos army books. The most 7th edition WoC says is that "Trolls are instinctively drawn to those that bear the favour of Chaos, perhaps because the corpses are always thick on the ground in the company of such an individual."
Old World Bestiary suggests they're of Chaos (though the main in-universe proponent presented in the book also thinks that they're the final form of a Greenskin lifecycle where Snotlings become Goblins become Orcs become Black Orcs become Trolls, so, grain of salt and all that*)
I wouldn't be surprised if it's a direct quote from somewhere, but I don't know where.
*Albrecht Kinear, former Professor Emeritus at the University of Nuln. Interesting guy- he thinks Chaos Cultists don't exist, that Chaos Marauders spontaneously generate from the Wastes and so aren't human, professes that Skaven and Wraiths don't exist, and generally single-mindedly insists that the only threat in the world is Chaos and everything else will leave well-enough alone. He was accused of being a member of the Tzeentch cult the Silver Wheel and was burned at the stake.
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Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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Well, some of us have been assuming for a time that Ranald is Loec and the Kislev Gods are the surviving Ellinilli.
Dark Elves 8th ed said:
What does this mean or imply in light of our new information? Here's my chain of logic here:
- We know that the Old Ones can create beings that to mortals would have been god-like, Khsar among them. We've speculated Hashut and the Horned One may be among them too, perhaps corruptions of such. They were presumably set about to various tasks originally. For the dwarves, Khsar was their 'warden' in both senses of the word, he kept them safe while not allowing them to leave, essentially as prisoners, until they escaped.
- We know that the Elves hold a conflicting number of beliefs about their gods, treating them as both metaphors and literal - one of the literal meanings could easily be that they are Old Ones. But they don't need to have created them collectively. They could have had their own groups of such gods.
- Ellinill's own physical gods ('children') are very destructive for some reason, and hurt a lot of mortals. Perhaps it's just collateral damage and they dont care for them? We can't know. Isha objects to this either way and asks her fellows to please think of the poor mortals. Loec is the only one to intercede, and makes Ellinill believe his 'children' are plotting against him. He wipes almost all of them out, weakening himself in the process.
Regardless, he intercedes, and that whole thing happens.
The biggest hole here is that we don't exactly know what the difference is between a god that only lives within the Aethyr and a god that is more physical. We've been referring to the latter as pre-Ancestor Gods, but I hardly think it was only dwarves that encountered such. So this is a categorization problem to me: are the Kislev gods more physical than the others? We had Tor, Ursun, Dazh and the Ancient Widow helping out Ljiljana alongside Ranald back when Mathilde fought the Kurgans, so they can at least exert their influence from afar. But I don't know anything else.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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For the Ancient Widow at least- when she first contacted the Gospodar, it is said that she told them she was physically trapped in the land that she led them to, Kislev.
And for whatever it might be worth, Total Warhammer 3 present Ursun as entirely physical- he hibernates through the winter in a location that his closest followers keep secret, and Boris's death created an opening that saw Be'lakor capture him and Ursun almost die.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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Nah, the Gospodar came from there (and maybe Tor, Dazh and Ursun) but the Widow was already in Kislev:
I assume they're just too small to be drawn in. The UK has something like 40,000 lakes (depoending on your definition), but maybe 30 of them are visible on a map of the whole country. Canada has nearly a million, but again, only a tiny number on maps. Lakes are small, countries are big. Also, drawing lakes is probably annoying. Everything else on a large scale map is pretty trivial. Lakes can't be dots like cities, or lines like rivers, roads or borders. And they can't be copy pasted like mountains.
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This was suggested a number of times before, but I really can't see it. First off, Drakira has a solid place in all elf pantheons. From Boney's comments on the Ellinilli:
The Widow seems very focused on Kislev, to the point that the witches say that she is the land itself. This doesn't make much sense if she's a major God for a number of different societies in geographically distanct locations.
Second, Drakira supposedly helped convince Isha to instigate the whole massacre of the Ellinilli, and Her siblings know this very well. It would be kind of hypocritical of her to have a grudge against Ranald/Loec for his part in this affair, and for Her siblings to be so cool with Her.
Third, it just...doesn't really add up at all? It doesn't really seem to me that vengence defines the Ancient Widow or Her followers. The Ancient Widow grants her followers the powers of winter and the ability to control spirits, which makes sense if She is the spirit of the land because the land is cold and the spirits belong to the land. How does this line up with Her actually being the Goddess of vengeance? Revenge is best served cold, therefore the Goddess of cold is Drakira?
I think Dazh might be Addaioth, that's the only one where the domain of the Ellinilli actually lines up well with the domain of the Kislevite God, but the rest don't add up. Maybe you can make the case that Tor is Mathlann, but Tor is a warrior God which Mathlann really isn't, and I feel like Mathlann doesn't really need to moonlight as a lightning God when being the sea God is working out very well for him. If they are Ellinilli they are probably just unknown Ellinilli, just as Ulric might be.
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Id rather say there are no major lakes in the Old World. Presumably there are tons of smaller ones that just dont appear on maps. Then we have to take into account that those maps arent even remotely detailed and not extremely accurate. Id wager theres lots of lakes in Troll country to mirror Finland and northwestern Russia, but whod go out there and map them?