Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
silvanknight said:
I'm on mobile so I can't look up quotes but even if the thread as a whole voted to loan our staff to help Battle Wizards to learn the codified version of RoW wouldn't that action be a waste of time since individual staves are for one person only?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
mostly correct
Boney said:
It's much easier to tailor one to a specific Wizard than to make something one-size-fits-all, so for the same effort it takes to make an okay staff that anyone could use, you could make a really good one that only one person can use. It is possible to use a staff that was tailored to someone else, but unless your paradigm is very similar to theirs (such as by being their Apprentice) it won't work very well for you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I doubt many Grey battle mages will have a foggy outlook on Ulgu like Mathilde does, since its a pretty underutilized aspect in the college spellbook.
 
dinomannitro6 said:
I doubt many Grey battle mages will have a foggy outlook on Ulgu like Mathilde does, since its a pretty underutilized aspect in the college spellbook.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The college spellbooks in general seem to skew slightly more towards Mystical than Elemental. A lot more prognostication than lightning in the Celestials, more edges/uncertainty than fog in the Greys. Even the Brights have more spells about emotion than fire, though they use the fire spells more often in the field.

The Mystical mindset might lend itself better to academia, I suppose. People like talking about esoterica.
 
Gavin Prince said:
The college spellbooks in general seem to skew slightly more towards Mystical than Elemental. A lot more prognostication than lightning in the Celestials, more edges/uncertainty than fog in the Greys. Even the Brights have more spells about emotion than fire, though they use the fire spells more often in the field.

The Mystical mindset might lend itself better to academia, I suppose. People like talking about esoterica.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In regards to this topic, Boney as usual has something interesting to say about it:
Boney said:
Fundamentally, Ghyran is the wind of growth and nourishment. Causing growth and/or nourishment in any living thing is Elemental, because it's connected directly to the literal associations of the Wind, and causing a crop to grow is a double whammy because the plant grows and the person who eats from it is nourished. The 'plant stuff' is Mystical because the connection to plants is a result of the metaphorical and mystical associations of the Wind to plant life especially, and using those mystical associations allows Ghyran to be used to achieve things with plants that aren't directly related to growth or nourishment. And a lot of what Panoramia is doing to terraform isn't Elemental, because she's not just waving her hand and making crops grow, she's making a lot of adjustments that will only result in growth or nourishment in aggregate.

That people often think Ghyran's plant stuff is Elemental is because there's a widespread fallacy, both inside the Colleges and out of it, that 'Elemental' means directly useful and 'Mystical' means weird and esoteric, and most Colleges reinforce that with their actions and/or aesthetics. Elemental Aqshy is the Bright Wizards throwing fireballs, Elemental Ulgu is the Grey Wizards lurking in shadows, Elemental Ghur is Amber Wizards hanging around with wild animals, Elemental Chamon is Gold Wizards doing stuff with metal. The Light and Amethyst Orders lean into their elemental aesthetics even though their focus is more on the mystical. The Celestials are an exception to the aesthetic elemental focus, but they go all in on mystical to the extent that many don't even realize there's a weather element to Azyr and people like Hubert get sidelined.

But the Jades aesthetically lean hard into the Mystical associations with plants, likely as a result of their Druidic origins, but a lot of their more visible and profitable partnerships are Elemental assistance given to crops. If they were more aesthetically Elemental, they'd look more like a fertility cult than like druids... which might be part of why they don't. As a result a lot of people assume that 'the plant stuff' is Elemental because that's their aesthetic and what they spend a lot of their time doing.

As a general rule of thumb to the Elemental/Mystical divide: Elemental is the natural process that the Wind is attracted to, Mystical is the mindset or emotions of a sentient being that it is attracted to.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I can never get enough of Boney's elaborations and explanations. They're great.
 
Any guesses as to who will be our sixth social interaction? I'm thinking Wilhelmina, because Eike is finally getting out of the College and she will want to meet her, and obviously she'll get a chance to meet Mathilde while she's doing that.
 
mathymancer said:
Any guesses as to who will be our sixth social interaction? I'm thinking Wilhelmina, because Eike is finally getting out of the College and she will want to meet her, and obviously she'll get a chance to meet Mathilde while she's doing that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That would also fit with the "investigate Laurelorn/EIC trade" action we took.
 
LadyLynn said:
That would also fit with the "investigate Laurelorn/EIC trade" action we took.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I didn't think of it, but that's absolutely right. Mathilde just found some new openings that the EIC could explore, and it was mentioned that Wilhelmina seemed to be waiting for Mathilde to do just that:
Boney said:
The rest of the business of the EIC seems to be ticking along nicely, but you are seeing some new city names pop up, most of them in southern Middenland. Perhaps a natural development from the existing presence in Altdorf and Talabecland, but perhaps Wilhelmina is expecting you to create new trading opportunities for her to jump upon. Perhaps she'd be right.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, I think Wilhelmina makes a lot of sense.
 
Speaking of the EIC, I'm interested in using it to put agents into Salzenmund next turn.

I think it'd be very valuable to have a better grasp on what's going on on Nordland's side of things. Right now, we really don't have any eyes there.
 
LadyLynn said:
Speaking of the EIC, I'm interested in using it to put agents into Salzenmund next turn.

I think it'd be very valuable to have a better grasp on what's going on on Nordland's side of things. Right now, we really don't have any eyes there.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
EIC has connections to southern Middenland. It's a bit of a jump to go from there into Salzenmund. Salzenmund also lacks many roads or trade routes to the other Provinces, which creates a barrier. The most prominent and only real route is the Middenheim-Erengrad Road which runs through the province and then into Ostland.

My point is, it requires build up. It's not exactly easy, and trying tto get Middenland traders to integrate with Nordlanders is a bad idea, so we'd have to subvert the native settlers.
 
Codex said:
EIC has connections to southern Middenland. It's a bit of a jump to go from there into Salzenmund. Salzenmund also lacks many roads or trade routes to the other Provinces, which creates a barrier. The most prominent and only real route is the Middenheim-Erengrad Road which runs through the province and then into Ostland.

My point is, it requires build up. It's not exactly easy, and trying tto get Middenland traders to integrate with Nordlanders is a bad idea, so we'd have to subvert the native settlers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hm. Well, what can we do with the EIC's information network, then?

I was under the impression that adding the Headquarters expanded the information network's capabilities, but I'm not really sure to what extent.
 
LadyLynn said:
Hm. Well, what can we do with the EIC's information network, then?

I was under the impression that adding the Headquarters expanded the information network's capabilities, but I'm not really sure to what extent.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The headquarters are based in Stirland, which is a gigantic distance from Nordland. If you want to explore the southern half of the Empire, then the HQ probably helps as a base from which things can operate. I can't really say to what extent it helps, because that's always been sort of vague.
 
The base gives the Hochlander a HQ to train agents and handle their reports. He's able to hire staff and basically create his own mini spy agency.

I can't say for sure what effect this would have, but we'll probably have a more efficient and competent network for when we do need to do the espionage thing.
 
mathymancer said:
I am very late to the party, so apologies if I'm retreading old ground - I've only very breifly skimmed the twenty something pages since the update.
First of all, I wanna give a shoutout to @LightLan for bringing up Khsar (among other Gods, admittedly) when the mystery of Dum came up, and @Nerdasaurus Rex for doing the same more recently. It's kind of amazing that anyone made the connection because even now that we've been told the solution it's hard for me to fully comperhend the answer.

So, Khsar. What the fuck?

I don't have anything too insightful to say on this whole thing but something did catch my eye here. Namely, the fact that it is really hard to track down this God through the ages. Khsar to Kavzar is barely recognaizable, and Khsar is apparently not the original name ("one of the names we remembered was reshaped into Khsar), and then it finally ends up as Morghur because Beastmen have terrible pronunciation. Khsar also has no consistency in the species of His followers: first dwarves, then humans, then dwarves and humans and finally beastmen in desperation. This disregard for the species of His followers may or may not be unusual - we do suspect that at least some human Gods are also elf Gods. But the most confusing in my opinion is that His domain seems to change quite drastically:

It started as "the teacher and warden of the Dawi". Then it was the God of a nomadic people and of the desert in general, then "city-father", and finally a God of the Beastmen which seems as different from a God of a city as you can get. We often talk about Gods are being Their domains, an incranation of ideas in the warp, but Khsar doesn't seem to fit this mold at all. It could be that we are just completely wrong about the nature of the Gods, or that we don't understand His domains well enough to really follow the connecting thread between all of those seemingly very different Gods, but I also wonder if perhaps He is just different from other Gods. We've speculated that He is either an Old One or more likely a creation of an Old One, and that's not true for all Gods (I think).


Deathfang told us that Rhya isn't Isha, and he did so in a way that draws a connection between Rhya and Athel Loren. Could it be that Morghur is drawn to Athel Loren because of Rhya? Might it even be the case that Ariel is an avatar of Rhya? We don't know much about Rhya's true nature other then the fact that she is not an elf God, but I can't help but notice that the Earth Mother seems like a decent candidate for a being that resembles Khsar, a teacher (and warden?) of a group of servants of the Old Ones, this time humans instead of Dawi. If Rhya is the Earth Mother, and Rhya is connected to Athel Loren, maybe that gives us a connection to Morghur.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think the crux of it is their physicality. They have a physical, persistent avatar, no more mutable than any living creature. Unlike pure Aethyr beings they aren't solely dependent on worship to exist and can find another culture to give them purpose
 
veekie said:
I think the crux of it is their physicality. They have a physical, persistent avatar, no more mutable than any living creature. Unlike pure Aethyr beings they aren't solely dependent on worship to exist and can find another culture to give them purpose
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This could be the case. If true, this would give us three distinct categories of Gods, at the very least: purely Aetheric Gods, physical Gods, and whatever Ancestor Gods. The Ancsetor Gods are physical beings that ascended/descended and also cut off a piece of the Aethyr, and They also have a different metaphysical connection to the Aethyr due to being Dawi, so they are likely very different from other Gods. Also other ascended mortals are maybe a thing, so Sigmar (and maybe Myrmidia?) may or may not be part of some fourth category.

But it might be that Khsar taking physical form was some sort of last ditch effort to save Himself, maybe all Gods can do that and just don't because it's generally a bad idea? I do think that Khsar being created by the Old Ones makes Him a different beast(man) from Gods that 'naturally' rose in the Aethyr, I just think that we don't know enough to know if the physicality aspect is part of that or not. I also don't think that Khsar's avatar is persistent: as Morghur, He has apparently been killed and reincarnated a number of times, right?

..you know, I do think that the Earth Mother is probably the same kind of being as Khsar, and if you're right about having a physical avatar being a part of Their nature, then maybe...maybe Ariel isn't an avatar of Isha at all. Maybe she's an avatar of a different nature Goddess, one that Morghur has history with. Is that the source of His grudge against Athel Loren?
 
Last edited:
mathymancer said:
This could be the case. If true, this would give us three distinct categories of Gods, at the very least: purely Aetheric Gods, physical Gods, and whatever Ancestor Gods. The Ancsetor Gods are physical beings that ascended/descended and also cut off a piece of the Aethyr, and They also have a different metaphysical connection to the Aethyr due to being Dawi, so they are likely very different from other Gods. Also other ascended mortals are maybe a thing, so Sigmar (and maybe Myrmidia?) may or may not be part of some fourth category.

But it might be that Khsar taking physical form was some sort of last ditch effort to save Himself, maybe all Gods can do that and just don't because it's generally a bad idea? I do think that Khsar being created by the Old Ones makes Him a different beast(man) from Gods that 'naturally' rose in the Aethyr, I just think that we don't know enough to know if the physicality aspect is part of that or not. I also don't think that Khsar's avatar is persistent: as Morghur, He has apparently been killed and reincarnated a number of times, right?

..you know, I do think that the Earth Mother is probably the same kind of being as Khsar, and if you're right about having a physical avatar being a part of Their nature, then maybe...maybe Ariel isn't an avatar of Isha at all. Maybe she's an avatar of a different nature Goddess, one that Morghur has history with. Is that the source of His grudge against Athel Loren?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, the obvious god to look at is Rhya:
  • The Druids, subsumed into the Jade Order, worship (or worshipped, depending on who you ask) the Earth Mother.
  • "Is Rhya the Earth Mother" is a subject of debate in the Jade Order to this day. (Although Shallya is mentioned as another possibility.)
  • Deathfang mentioned that Radixashen "joined with Rhya," and that Rhya is not Isha.
  • Radixashen is now a Forest Dragon in Athel Loren.
 
Last edited:
Darth Crater said:
Well, the obvious god to look at is Rhya:
  • The Druids, subsumed into the Jade Order, worship (or worshipped, depending on who you ask) the Earth Mother.
  • "Is Rhya the Earth Mother" is a subject of debate in the Jade Order to this day. (Although Shallya is mentioned as another possibility.)
  • Deathfang mentioned that Radixashen "joined with Rhya," and that Rhya is not Isha.
  • Radixashen is now a Forest Dragon in Athel Loren.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yup, that's my thought as well:
mathymancer said:
Deathfang told us that Rhya isn't Isha, and he did so in a way that draws a connection between Rhya and Athel Loren. Could it be that Morghur is drawn to Athel Loren because of Rhya? Might it even be the case that Ariel is an avatar of Rhya? We don't know much about Rhya's true nature other then the fact that she is not an elf God, but I can't help but notice that the Earth Mother seems like a decent candidate for a being that resembles Khsar, a teacher (and warden?) of a group of servants of the Old Ones, this time humans instead of Dawi. If Rhya is the Earth Mother, and Rhya is connected to Athel Loren, maybe that gives us a connection to Morghur.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Rhya is something of a mystery, now that we know she isn't Isha. Taal too, maybe He is the Green Man, whatever that is. And Rhya's connection to Athel Loren has always been intriguing to me, but there's no chance of us exploring it any further barring some new information, since Mathilde has no idea what a "Radixashen" is.

Well, we are going to be working with Bretonnia in the future, and Athel Loren is going to come up when we look into their network, so there's a good chance that the future of the quest includes more on the Belthani, the Earth Mother and Athel Loren.
 
I wonder if a physical God could be a forest?

I don't have a great grasp on the lore of Rhya and the Earthmother and the like, but is it plausible for either/both of them to literally be Athel Loren?

(I am fully expecting someone to explain to me why there is no way this could be true)
 
LadyLynn said:
I wonder if a physical God could be a forest?

I don't have a great grasp on the lore of Rhya and the Earthmother and the like, but is it plausible for either/both of them to literally be Athel Loren?

(I am fully expecting someone to explain to me why there is no way this could be true)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, on the one hand, Rhya was supposedly one of the patron-gods of the tribes of men that migrated to the Reik Basin, who would have originated far from Athel Loren.

On the other hand, it's not like that stopped the Gospodar with the Ancient Widow.

…actually, theory came to mind- suppose that the Ancient Widow is one of those gods created by the Old Ones? Would that mean that the story of the Elinni is a memory of what happened to those gods? Borek said they had died.
 
Mopman43 said:
Well, on the one hand, Rhya was supposedly one of the patron-gods of the tribes of men that migrated to the Reik Basin, who would have originated far from Athel Loren.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Isn't one of those tribes the Belthani, who orginiated from Albion and possibly passed through Athel Loren or at least near it on their way to the Reik Basin?
Mopman43 said:
On the other hand, it's not like that stopped the Gospodar with the Ancient Widow.

…actually, theory came to mind- suppose that the Ancient Widow is one of those gods created by the Old Ones? Would that mean that the story of the Elinni is a memory of what happened to those gods? Borek said they had died.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hmm.
Boney said:
Why Norsca, the shattered remnants of another prison?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Did the followers of the Ancient Widow originate somewhere around Norsca?
 
mathymancer said:
Isn't one of those tribes the Belthani, who orginiated from Albion and possibly passed through Athel Loren or at least near it on their way to the Reik Basin?

Hmm.

Did the followers of the Ancient Widow originate somewhere around Norsca?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Belthani were there first, then the tribes of men from the east came and displaced them- the Belthani aren't one of the founding tribes.

The Gospodar came from the east, from the Steppes.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top