Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
So what's the difference then? I'm not proposing that we blow up Sylvania with our knowledge, but as the option is written we would try small amounts and use appropriate caution.
At no point did Mathilde use Dark Magic when she was reading the Liber Mortis.

Trying out the Second Secret is using Dark Magic, without any pretenses or possible claims otherwise. It's touching and wielding Dhar.
 
So what's the difference then? I'm not proposing that we blow up Sylvania with our knowledge, but as the option is written we would try small amounts and use appropriate caution.
If we do small amounts, we might be able to keep it secret we broke the articles, but Mathilde would know she broke the articles.
 
Last edited:
At no point did Mathilde use Dark Magic when she was reading the Liber Mortis.

Trying out the Second Secret is using Dark Magic, without any pretenses or possible claims otherwise. It's touching and wielding Dhar.
If we do small amounts, we might be able to keep it secret we broke the articles, but Matilde would know she broke the articles.
We literally needed to get a dispensation for studying Dhar to save the world. The articles are decent for what they supposed to do but perfect they are not.
So personally using the most minimal amount of Dhar possible to see if we could actually use our knowledge to deal with large amounts of Dhar seems a worthwhile trade...
 
We literally needed to get a dispensation for studying Dhar to save the world. The articles are decent for what they supposed to do but perfect they are not.
So personally using the most minimal amount of Dhar possible to see if we could actually use our knowledge to deal with large amounts of Dhar seems a worthwhile trade...
I think a no-tolerance policy towards using magic that is characterized by self-destructiveness, taints the world around you, and is guaranteed to turn you into a power-hungry megalomaniac, is actually fairly reasonable.

If Mathilde didn't have the Belt, using Dhar would drive her mad, too.
 
Found this WoB on different interpretations of the Articles:

It's leaning on the room for interpretation in Article 7. Under the strictest reading of it, it would have been illegal for Mathilde to counterspell necromantic spells in Sylvania, since to counter them she has to look at them to see what they're doing and how to interfere with them and that can be thought of as studying the unholy ways of Necromancy. Under the loosest reading of it, it only bars attempting to learn how to cast the actual spells. This means that if a person is performing what may technically be thought of as a breach of Article 7 to some, them having dispensation from the Supreme Patriarch means that it's been considered at the highest levels and deemed acceptable, and if anyone wants to dispute that they need to take it up with the Supreme Patriarch instead of just throwing the Wizard in question on a pyre and calling it a day.

I think under a strict reading, that time Mathilde ripped a miscast out of Grettel's face and crushed it in her fist counts as an Article violation, but it was badass and saved a life, so no one cares. I think messing with the Second Secret also falls into this "it's up to interpretation" clause because yeah she's touching the bad stuff, but with the intent to destroy it.
 
[x] Plan Redshirt v2
-[X] Garrison: Zhufbar
-[X] Institutions: Order of Guardians, Celestial Order
-[X] Individuals: Johann, Heidi, Kasmir

[X] Material
[X] Air
 
I think a no-tolerance policy towards using magic that is characterized by self-destructiveness, taints the world around you, and is guaranteed to turn you into a power-hungry megalomaniac, is actually fairly reasonable.

If Mathilde didn't have the Belt, using Dhar would drive her mad, too.
I mean... there's like... Waystones? That use Dhar?

I don't feel in any hurry to try out the Second Secret, and I don't evaluate the costs of other Dhar possibilities we've seen as being remotely worth the benefits, but I don't find myself convinced of the "zero tolerance for Dhar, always bad forever" position.
 
Ok, so this is the original part where we learn about it-

Dhar is inherently unstable, of course. So you use as little as possible, as quickly as possible, right? So it has the least amount of power and the least amount of time to break free?

No. With the patience of a priest, you weave it atop itself again and again like the cords of a rope, with every strand of it straining with the desire to explode free but held in place by every other strand. And just like that you have all the power of Dhar and none of the drawbacks... at least, not unless your attention wavers while attempting it and you burn alive from your soul outwards.

Or, if you're so inclined, you twist it the other way, and Dhar disintegrates in such a way to cause more Dhar to disintegrate, and like a single spark striking gunpowder any Dhar construct nearby unleashes all its energy at once, a chain reaction of failing enchantment. No wonder the Grand Theogonist could tear Mannfred Von Carstein's army apart. It required only the faintest hint of power, delivered in just the right spot to start the dominoes falling.

So I'll conceed that this does seem to describe dhar's baseline state as subject to counter-twisting, although I maintain that the implication is that Dhar only can exist at all as a twist on itself, otherwise it would just cease to exist, and the weaving of the first secret is sorta the same thing as creating Dhar in the first place?

First Secret of Dhar: Dhar is inherently unstable, everyone knows that. What they don't know is how to turn Dhar against itself. You do. And now you'll never not know it.
Second Secret of Dhar: Dhar could be made more unstable. A tiny nudge in just the right way and Dhar unravels in just the right way to unravel more Dhar, and so on until nothing remains.

So the end result of both of these descriptions is to beg the question: where does the energy go? When you make the scary poisonous long-term nuclear radiation analog just fall apart into nothing.

Like, looking back on this, it *seems* like the sort of thing that could purify large swaths of land in a very short amount of time, and that makes me feel like I am missing something. It's too contrary to the idea of an insidious stain of dark magic for someone to be able to just walk by and flip the switch that removes it.

So why didn't Van Hel use it to win against the skaven when his land was literally covered in warpstone and Dhar?
 
So the end result of both of these descriptions is to beg the question: where does the energy go? When you make the scary poisonous long-term nuclear radiation analog just fall apart into nothing.

Like, looking back on this, it *seems* like the sort of thing that could purify large swaths of land in a very short amount of time, and that makes me feel like I am missing something. It's too contrary to the idea of an insidious stain of dark magic for someone to be able to just walk by and flip the switch that removes it.

So why didn't Van Hel use it to win against the skaven when his land was literally covered in warpstone and Dhar?
It still stains and taints the land, that's just generally preferable to an army of zombies.

I mean... there's like... Waystones? That use Dhar?

I don't feel in any hurry to try out the Second Secret, and I don't evaluate the costs of other Dhar possibilities we've seen as being remotely worth the benefits, but I don't find myself convinced of the "zero tolerance for Dhar, always bad forever" position.
There might be an exception for Elves, thought the Drucchi don't exactly do anything to suggest that.
 
The main example for Elf Dhar users are the Drucchi sorceresses, who certainly seem to display the mental effects of Dhar exposure, though with them that might just be cultural.
I... don't understand how this relates to what I said.

I'm not trying to say there currently exist Dhar practices that are fine or anything like that. What I was trying to say is that I don't find the position of "Dhar is inherently bad to interact with" convincing, even if I've found the cost/benefit analysis of the vast majority of Dhar-related actions to be terrible.
 
I... don't understand how this relates to what I said.

I'm not trying to say there currently exist Dhar practices that are fine or anything like that. What I was trying to say is that I don't find the position of "Dhar is inherently bad to interact with" convincing, even if I've found the cost/benefit analysis of the vast majority of Dhar-related actions to be terrible.
I thought you were saying that as a position of "Elves have used Dhar to positive ends".

As regards to further Waystones, if there's any need to wield Dhar during the construction of them, I'm sure Eonir mages would be happy to be an indispensable part of Waystone construction.

I don't think humans using Dhar can lead to positive ends.
 
The ambiguity of the legality of studying Dhar is based on ambiguity about exactly what is meant by 'study'. All of that ambiguity evaporates if you actually cast a spell with it.

given that morrslieb is moon-sized (presumably, who knows with that thing really), and the dhar-to-warpstone ratio is probably quite high, the resulting explosion might cause an extinction event. the spontaneous transformation of the real life moon into energy probably would, after all. (I haven't run the numbers on that, but that's an already absurdly large mass and would turn into even more absurdly much energy)

I tried punching the numbers in to Wolfram Alpha: 6.6 duodecillion joules, equivalent to one and a half million yottatons of TNT or five hundred thousand years of the entire energy output of the sun. I have no frame of reference for these numbers but I'm pretty sure they'd be a bad time for earth.
 
I tried punching the numbers in to Wolfram Alpha: 6.6 duodecillion joules, equivalent to one and a half million yottatons of TNT or five hundred thousand years of the entire energy output of the sun. I have no frame of reference for these numbers but I'm pretty sure they'd be a bad time for earth.
...and all of that energy hates us with the burning passion of a hundred suns burning longer then five hundred thousand years...
 
The ambiguity of the legality of studying Dhar is based on ambiguity about exactly what is meant by 'study'. All of that ambiguity evaporates if you actually cast a spell with it.



I tried punching the numbers in to Wolfram Alpha: 6.6 duodecillion joules, equivalent to one and a half million yottatons of TNT or five hundred thousand years of the entire energy output of the sun. I have no frame of reference for these numbers but I'm pretty sure they'd be a bad time for earth.
Well, in another notation, that's 6.6 x 10^39 joules, while the power of a supernova, according to google, is 10^44 joules.

So, 5 orders of magnitude less than a supernova.

To get across the power of a supernova, to quote XKCD:

Which of the following would be brighter, in terms of the amount of energy delivered to your retina:

  1. A supernova, seen from as far away as the Sun is from the Earth, or
  2. The detonation of a hydrogen bomb pressed against your eyeball?

Applying the physicist rule of thumb suggests that the supernova is brighter. And indeed, it is ... by nine orders of magnitude.
 
I thought you were saying that as a position of "Elves have used Dhar to positive ends".

As regards to further Waystones, if there's any need to wield Dhar during the construction of them, I'm sure Eonir mages would be happy to be an indispensable part of Waystone construction.

I don't think humans using Dhar can lead to positive ends.
I think that theoretically if we had no important projects on our hands and didn't have to worry about the Articles, Tong-casting could be worth it and lead to positive ends, with minimal risk and no Dhar-mindset problems seeing as it's purely relying on the attractant properties of Dhar but not actually wielding it. But those are very big "ifs".

At any rate, yes, I think that if Waystones wind up needing Dhar to be wielded during their construction, that would be best left to, well, not humans.
 
I tried punching the numbers in to Wolfram Alpha: 6.6 duodecillion joules, equivalent to one and a half million yottatons of TNT or five hundred thousand years of the entire energy output of the sun. I have no frame of reference for these numbers but I'm pretty sure they'd be a bad time for earth.
Having dabbled in this sort of thing in my dissolute internet youth, presuming the same distance to earth's moon and all the other not easily checkable numbers line up, the planet gets mass scattered by the event, and if I'm not dropping a decimal point or six somewhere with about 200x overkill.

From the same misspent youth, the iconic Death Star blowing up Alderaan sequence in a few frames involves about 1 million times overkill on Earth. So roughly in the space of a few seconds to a minute or two the planet gets turned into a relativistic shotgun in the opposite direction from where the moon was at time of detonation. Or possibly the omnidirectional energy wave experiences the briefest delay and a small dimple forms on the 1/10000th of the expanding sphere of destruction that the planet momentarily occupied.

There is something of a dearth in experimental data when it comes to actually blowing up planets, so there's a significant amount of guess work involved in how it would shake out, especially for unscientifically trained internet laymen.


Edit: to provide some clarification so as not to fulfill the experts assuming people know stuff meme prophecy, mass scattering means overcoming the gravitational binding energy of the planet so that over the course of the next few eons a new planet doesn't recoalesce from the rubble and space dust. Once you get to planetary masses, merely blowing it up isn't quite a permanent solution, at least on the potential eternal scale of a certain vampire skull on our shelf, you have to blow it up energetically enough that it no longer wants anything to do with itself.
 
Last edited:
In any case, while a hypothetical Witch Hunter reading Mathilde's diary could likely point to several violations of the "no touchy Dhar" rule, I do think that it's an important character beat for Mathilde that she has so far refused to break that rule by her own standards.

Even if we did our Second Secret testing in a perfectly isolated area where nobody would ever track it back to us and our belt burnt away all the Dhar before it could have any magically corruptive effect, that would still be Mathilde deciding that Yes Actually I Can Handle The Dark Magic, It Needed To Be Done, Why Can't They See That.

And from there it's only a short hop to I'll Show Them All. :V
 
Since Eike's gonna be our apprentice, she'll be worthy of our secrets, so we should let her read the Liber Mortis.
First reaction is hell no. Big risk, for both Mathilde and Eike.

Second reaction is that I agree with this only on the condition that she receive it in the same manner Mathilde did. At that point Mathilde would be dead and the quest would have either ended or begun anew as Eikequest. It would make an interesting thing to read about either way.
 
In any case, while a hypothetical Witch Hunter reading Mathilde's diary could likely point to several violations of the "no touchy Dhar" rule, I do think that it's an important character beat for Mathilde that she has so far refused to break that rule by her own standards.

Even if we did our Second Secret testing in a perfectly isolated area where nobody would ever track it back to us and our belt burnt away all the Dhar before it could have any magically corruptive effect, that would still be Mathilde deciding that Yes Actually I Can Handle The Dark Magic, It Needed To Be Done, Why Can't They See That.

And from there it's only a short hop to I'll Show Them All. :V
I finally found the reaction image I was looking for!


Since Eike's gonna be our apprentice, she'll be worthy of our secrets, so we should let her read the Liber Mortis.
I honestly think that should be an 'in case of my death' sort of situation, or if Mathilde is very old and wrinkled and Eike has already proved herself. IIRC Boney stated that the way the Van Hals handled it is just about right for the level of danger it represents: you need someone to hold onto it just in case, but its biggest protection is that nobody knows that person has it.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top