Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Deathbybunnies · Jun 10, 2022

I think it would be a good idea to make some "speculative" assignments for the first few turns. We don't know what everyone knows, but if Zlata has some unexpected insights into the Capstone we don't want to miss out on that, and if she doesn't I imagine it will become obvious over the course of an action, and we can move her next turn. After a few turns of this we'll have a much clearer idea of where to put everyone.

silentorphan · Jun 10, 2022

DragonParadox said:
I mean she can read most of them, vampires do have other books than 1001 ways to cast necromancy.

Ah, yes, bodice-rippers with doe-eyed maidens and roguish vampires that twinkle in the moonlight.

"You're too young for these, apprentice!"
"Master, there are Magda Wessen novels on the Grey College bookshelves. I've read all of them."
"..."

mathymancer · Jun 10, 2022

Deathbybunnies said:
I think it would be a good idea to make some "speculative" assignments for the first few turns. We don't know what everyone knows, but if Zlata has some unexpected insights into the Capstone we don't want to miss out on that, and if she doesn't I imagine it will become obvious over the course of an action, and we can move her next turn. After a few turns of this we'll have a much clearer idea of where to put everyone.

The thing is, the way I understand this

Boney said:
In general the fastest progress will be made by involving only those with the most applicable knowledge, but also keep in mind how each individual might feel about being included or excluded in a particular investigation.

is that having someone who doesn't know about something involved in the action will make it less good (because we will waste time working with someone who isn't helpful?). I think it might also be kind of annoying to such a participant.
We do have some basis to think that some members will be more helpful than others for certain parts of the research, the intention seems to be that we use that. Otherwise the best course of action would be to bring everyone to every action.

Aliya · Jun 10, 2022

I think idea to start with tributaries makes sense. They are easier to make and might provide insight for building the proper waystone.

Codex · Jun 10, 2022

@Boney Thank you for the update and the hard work. I know you're swamped with questions and have to field all sorts of things so we're fully informed, and I want you to know I appreciate it.

Boney said:
After some thought you give Rolf's breeding project your go-ahead, and make a mental note to send word to the Jade Order that the services of a Journeyman would be welcome here. The lure of guaranteed safe work and welcoming locals means that your fief won't go long at all before one of them adds your fief to their rounds and lends magical assistance to the tupping and the lambing. To that end you take half the funds stashed in the chest and leave the other half to pay for the project and any future expenses.

I hope whoever arrives here from the Jade College has a pleasant time. I was initially a bit uncomfortable with taking the money, but I suppose them having that much money and with no realistic way to spend it then it's just hanging there. Might as well take it so it doesn't pile up unused.

Boney said:
Other recent expenditures include an influx of books from the Colleges on some esoteric topics, a few volumes from the Order of Guardians on their greatswording techniques, and from Kragg - indirectly, as he'd sent the job off to a Runesmith whose great-great-great grandfather had learned the Rune from Kragg and threatened a dire haranguing if the knowledge has been lost in a mere five generations - you have a training blade for practicing the techniques of your nascent combat style, Branarhune. Though it is, of course, very well-made, it is still a training blade, as its composition was made to mimic the weight of Gromril rather than for hardiness in battle, and it was made with blunt and tough edges, rather than ones that could easily be ground or hammered into sharpness.

Every mention of Kragg is hilarious and characterful. He's just sitting offscreen and occasionally coming up to be a grumpy old man and I can't stress enough how much I love it. It's also interesting to note that while Kragg has no apprentices, he's still seen it fit to teach some of his runes to other Runesmiths through the ages. Not all the knowledge he has will die with him, and that's kind of reassuring.

Boney said:
Kragg has called the blade 'Branithune', and though as a verb it could be interpreted straightforwardly as 'practicing Branulhune', as a noun it is very easy to interpret it along the lines of 'precocious beardling who's up past their bedtime'. You suppose that's what you get for coming to Kragg with a job he feels unworthy of his skills, and there's not many on the continent who'd get off so lightly if they did so.

I love Grandpa Kragg.

Boney said:
With the Waystone Project finally begun, your options for pursuing it have branched significantly. On top of the four significant components of the standard Elven Waystone - capstone, runes, foundation, and leyline - you'd need to reverse-engineer to be able to build one of your own, you've also uncovered several other interesting facets that could be worth investigating. There's the other forms of Waystone built by the Belthani, the Scythians, and grown by the Eonir, there's the entirely separate networks scattered throughout the continent used by various peoples for various purposes, and there's all kinds of nexuses, both functional and lost, that could stand further scrutiny. There's also the question of fully mapping out the network, because from the sound of it the nexus network has a worrying amount of bottlenecks that could block the flow of half the continent if something happened to them. If the fall of one or two foreign cities would doom the entire Empire, that's something you think that the Empire should be aware of.

There are a looot of avenues to explore and I don't think I have the time to go over all of them. And it seems other people are doing that. I'm not sure I have anything to add to the complexity of the plan making stage that would change things tbh, but I will note that I think the capstone might be the easiest starting point.

We have a bunch of metallurgical experts with us, from metal detector Johann to Blacksmith Max to Runesmith Thorek and whatever the hell Hatalath has up his sleeve, and we have a stockpile of Waystone Gold we can just request from the Gold College. It seems like one of the most convenient starting points.

I can't honestly say whether we should get to mapping the Waystones as soon as possible, or if we should get started on other aspects first before mapping. Either way I suggest mapping the Empire fully first before we leave its confines.

In terms of non-Waystone actions, I want to continue Branurhune and take the apprentice lesson.

Boney · Jun 10, 2022

ScarabShell said:
There's the Tower of Se-Athil, which was mentioned here:

There's too many unknowns about the Laurelorn section for her to start drawing in the fine details.

ScarabShell said:
The map of Ostermark on the wiki shows Bechafen on the fork in the Upper Talabec, and I assumed the castle icon south of it was Mordheim. Should I also update this?

It looks like you've mixed up the rivers. The point just east of where you've marked 8 is where the Urskoy splits off the Upper Talabec, which is the location of a village called Borkum. Bechafen is at the next junction along. I don't know what the castle on the map signifies - Tempelhof? Vanhaldenschlosse? - but it's on the wrong side of the river to be Mordheim.

mathymancer said:
@Boney do we have some idea as to when those books might start to trickle in?

Eventually.

16 characters · Jun 10, 2022

silentorphan said:
Ah, yes, bodice-rippers with doe-eyed maidens and roguish vampires that twinkle in the moonlight.

"You're too young for these, apprentice!"
"Master, there are Magda Wessen novels on the Grey College bookshelves. I've read all of them."
"..."

They probably also have some on using warpstone, classifying blood, diss tracks built against other vampires, books on building the impossible looking architecture some of them seem to favor and more. No need to just imagine romance ;-)

dpara · Jun 10, 2022

I suppose we can't ask Johann for some CF and shared credit?

I'm not sure about even finding (working) Necromantic Lore in the library, Vampires/Von Carsteins strike me as somewhat paranoid (sideyes Vargheists), I wouldn't expect to find it "just written down for the convenience of your relatives".

I want our apprentice gopher around Tor Lithanel, this coalescence of magical traditions is just a gold mine in magical lore/training opportunities, ...does Eike need lessons in "puppy eyes" ;p ?

Deathbybunnies · Jun 10, 2022

mathymancer said:
The thing is, the way I understand this

is that having someone who doesn't know about something involved in the action will make it less good (because we will waste time working with someone who isn't helpful?). I think it might also be kind of annoying to such a participant.
We do have some basis to think that some members will be more helpful than others for certain parts of the research, the intention seems to be that we use that. Otherwise the best course of action would be to bring everyone to every action.

Yes, it will reduce the amount of progress made for one turn if we get it wrong, but in the long term making sure we've got everyone contributing what they know will mean more progress on a per-turn basis. It's going to be a long project, so I'm confident that this will pay off.

Boney · Jun 10, 2022

dpara said:
I suppose we can't ask Johann for some CF and shared credit?

Hitting your employees up for a loan is not best practices. If you don't want to pay for the orbs, there's already an alternative available.

LadyLynn · Jun 10, 2022

mathymancer said:
The thing is, the way I understand this

is that having someone who doesn't know about something involved in the action will make it less good (because we will waste time working with someone who isn't helpful?). I think it might also be kind of annoying to such a participant.
We do have some basis to think that some members will be more helpful than others for certain parts of the research, the intention seems to be that we use that. Otherwise the best course of action would be to bring everyone to every action.

The thing is that I don't think we have a very good idea of what the optimal assignments are yet for a large chunk of the Project's members. Like, we only know a fraction of the knowledge base and skillset of a large chunk of our members.

Like, for WEB-MAT we know stuff like that Johann is really good at detecting Waystones because of his Windsight, but we don't really know similar things about other members. We don't know much about what they can contribute, other than our very limited understanding of what their magical tradition might have had to do with Waystones.

And I think the only way we're really going to figure those things out is by seeing them in action(s) more, and seeing where they can contribute and where they can't.

EDIT: Let me put it this way: intel about the capabilities of the Project's members is another kind of progress for the Waystone Project, one that I think we should prioritize highly during the early stages.

Alectai · Jun 10, 2022

Hey @Boney

I have a question, is a "Write a report on the applications of the Rune of the Unknown" thing something we can do when we've finished locking in the sword style? It was mentioned that he kind of thought it was sort of a weird edge case and finding something he can put it on was an interesting challenge, but it's unclear if that means he's done a deep dive in the whole applications like Mathilde has over the years. Because there's a lot of interesting things you can do with something that can temporarily discard mass until it's more convenient for you.

Boney · Jun 10, 2022

Alectai said:
Hey @Boney

I have a question, is a "Write a report on the applications of the Rune of the Unknown" thing something we can do when we've finished locking in the sword style? It was mentioned that he kind of thought it was sort of a weird edge case and finding something he can put it on was an interesting challenge, but it's unclear if that means he's done a deep dive in the whole applications like Mathilde has over the years. Because there's a lot of interesting things you can do with something that can temporarily discard mass until it's more convenient for you.

Mathilde will be able to write a book on Branarhune once it's completed. Were there other applications that that wouldn't cover?

K von Carstein · Jun 10, 2022

LadyLynn said:
The thing is that I don't think we have a very good idea of what the optimal assignments are yet for a large chunk of the Project's members. Like, we only know a fraction of the knowledge base and skillset of a large chunk of our members.

We have a general idea of it tho, so beginning by making them do the things they're more likely to be good at strikes me as more effective.

LawsOfRobotics · Jun 10, 2022

@Boney a couple questions:

Boney said:
"Probably via the Sorcerer's Islands, I know someone who'd be able to confirm whether that's the case.

Have we already asked Cython about this or would that be a potential future social action?

Boney said:
[ ] EIC: Found an auditors division, to make sure the ledgers are in order.

Boney said:
Office of the Auditors General:
Headed by Rudiger von Bechafen
Office located in the Sunken Palace, somewhere beneath Wurtbad

Is the "Office of the Auditors General" just a cover for the group run by the Hochlander now that he has the Sunken Palace to call an office and if we want someone to do actual auditing we have to initiate that with the EIC action?

Boney · Jun 10, 2022

LawsOfRobotics said:
@Boney a couple questions:

Have we already asked Cython about this or would that be a potential future social action?

Asking Cython would be the first thing to do if it's decided to map Araby.

LawsOfRobotics said:
Is the "Office of the Auditors General" just a cover for the group run by the Hochlander now that he has the Sunken Palace to call an office and if we want someone to do actual auditing we have to initiate that with the EIC action?

It's a cover name, because being an auditor is a really good cover for someone that shows up unexpectedly, won't say what they're doing, and asks a bunch of weird questions.

mathymancer · Jun 10, 2022

LadyLynn said:
The thing is that I don't think we have a very good idea of what the optimal assignments are yet for a large chunk of the Project's members. Like, we only know a fraction of the knowledge base and skillset of a large chunk of our members.

Like, for WEB-MAT we know stuff like that Johann is really good at detecting Waystones because of his Windsight, but we don't really know similar things about other members. We don't know much about what they can contribute, other than our very limited understanding of what their magical tradition might have had to do with Waystones.

And I think the only way we're really going to figure those things out is by seeing them in action(s) more, and seeing where they can contribute and where they can't.

We don't know for sure about every members every ability, sure. But we're not flying completely blind here. We could definitely make some speculative picks, but I think we should ground that speculation in what knowledge we do have, rather than just taking everyone on every mission. As an example I suggested the possiblity that Aksel, Baba Niedzwenka and Zlata might have insights on tributaries in general. Chlof suggested that Thorek might know something about Waystone Gold. Maybe those things are worth checking, maybe not, but that sort of thing makes a lot more sense to me than just working as if we have no knowledge.

There are currently eight different actions to take. Four of them have option specific specifications, which ends up as ~20 actions total. Will working with Zlata on Waystone Gold tell us if she will be useful for studying the Athel Loren network? Maybe, but I don't see how, and if we take everyone on every action we will waste a lot of time doing sub optimal work.

Perhaps the way to go is to think which actions that we have would benefit the most from many members. That way we might get an idea as to the capabilities of the various members but still avoid completely giving up on efficiency.

DragonParadox · Jun 10, 2022

mathymancer said:
We don't know for sure about every members every ability, sure. But we're not flying completely blind here. We could definitely make some speculative picks, but I think we should ground that speculation in what knowledge we do have, rather than just taking everyone on every mission. As an example I suggested the possiblity that Aksel, Baba Niedzwenka and Zlata might have insights on tributaries in general. Chlof suggested that Thorek might know something about Waystone Gold. Maybe those things are worth checking, maybe not, but that sort of thing makes a lot more sense to me than just working as if we have no knowledge.

There are currently eight different actions to take. Four of them have option specific specifications, which ends up as ~20 actions total. Will working with Zlata on Waystone Gold tell us if she will be useful for studying the Athel Loren network? Maybe, but I don't see how, and if we take everyone on every action we will waste a lot of time doing sub optimal work.

Perhaps the way to go is to think which actions that we have would benefit the most from many members. That way we might get an idea as to the capabilities of the various members but still avoid completely giving up on efficiency.

Tocher should also know tributaries from her Druid lore.

Nerdasaurus Rex · Jun 10, 2022

What job can each member do?

I'm looking at this both from an angle of what they are good at, and what they might like to be involved in. I've tried to give each one at least four things to do as well (sorry Max but your skills are really niche).

Lady Magister Elrisse of the Order of Light
-Capstone, Rune, Foundation, Nehekara Network, Leylines

Lord Magister Egrimm van Horstmann of the Order of Light
-Capstone, Mapping, Nexuses, Rune, Foundation

Magister Tochter Grunfeld of the Order of Life
-Rune, Tributaries, Nexuses, Leyline

Lector Aksel of the Cult of Halétha
- Nexus (forest of shadows), Tributaries, Leylines, Mapping

Lord Hatalath of the Grey Lords
- Everything

Vicereine Cadaeth of the Ward of Frost
-Tributaries, Nexuses, Laurelorn Network, Leylines

Lecturer Sarvoi of House Tindomiel
-Foundation, Rune, Leyline, Laurelorn Network

Runelord Thorek Ironbrow of Karak Azul
-Everything

Baba Niedzwenka of Erengrad
-Leyline, Nexuses, Kislev Network, Tributaries

Ice Maiden Zlata of the Hromada Ledyanoy Ved'ma
-Leyline, Nexuses, Kislev Network, Tributaries

Max
-Capstone, Foundation

Johann
-Mapping, Nexuses, Networks, Leylines

Project\Member

Elrisse

Egrimm

Tochter

Aksel

Hatalath

Cadaeth

Sarvoi

Thorek

Niedzwenka

Zlata

Max

Johann

Capstone

YES

Rune

YES

Foundation

YES

Leyline

YES

Nexus

YES

Tributaries

YES

Mapping

YES

Other Networks

YES

For Capstone, we probably want to keep it simple and just use Max on it, because that's what he's good at. Possibly pull in one of the Lights, Thorek and maybe Hatalath, I guess?

For the Rune, Elrisse, Tochter, Hatalath, and Thorek seems like a good range of perspectives.

For the Foundation, I think we should go Egrimm, Hatalath/Sarvoi, Thorek.

For Leylines, Tochter, Aksel, Cadaeth, Thorek, Johann, and the Witches.

The Nexuses are going to be location dependent—Aksel will be very useful in the Forest of Shadows, but less so in Marienburg. I think we should bring Niedzwenka to Mordheim, if we ever investigate that—Hags are supposed to be good at cleansing the land of Dhar. Probably Tochter for the same reason. Johann's unique windsight makes him a must have for this.

Tributaries again depends on which flavour we investigate, but I think a combination of Aksel, Caedeth, Thorek, Tochter and the Witches should round that out nicely. I also kinda want at least one person from each tradition to learn how to make them, so they can go back to their homes and teach others.

Mapping is very simple—Just grab someone with good windsight and social skills (Johann) and fly around the country for a bit. I think we should start with the Empire and the Border Princes myself, but I can see arguments for Bretonnia/Tilea/Estalia. Aksel might be good at this because of his Hedgewise connections?

Other Networks is similar to Nexuses in that it's going to be location dependent—no dragging Elf archmages around Dwarf Holds, or Runelords into Athel Loren. We actually shouldn't touch Athel Loren until we have Damsels anyway.

mathymancer · Jun 10, 2022

DragonParadox said:
Tocher should also know tributaries from her Druid lore.

Oh, for sure, I mentioned her in this post. I was specifically talking about speculative stuff, and Tochter knowing stuff about Belthani tributaries isn't speculative at all, it's a pretty sure thing.

BurnNote · Jun 10, 2022

Oh man, it was great to see an update so soon.

Boney said:
Kragg has called the blade 'Branithune', and though as a verb it could be interpreted straightforwardly as 'practicing Branulhune', as a noun it is very easy to interpret it along the lines of 'precocious beardling who's up past their bedtime'. You suppose that's what you get for coming to Kragg with a job he feels unworthy of his skills, and there's not many on the continent who'd get off so lightly if they did so.

And this is just precious. Not only did Kragg make a neat pun, it's also super heartwarming. Precocious beardling who's up past their bedtime? Kragg really is our forcefully adopted grumpy grandpa.

Also, if give it to our apprentice for training (depending on her attitude to violence), then it's even more appropriate.

Can someone break down how the pun works? Bran is something with moonlight, so I guess Brani is someone up at night. Put I couldn't find what thune meant.

silentorphan said:
Ah, yes, bodice-rippers with doe-eyed maidens and roguish vampires that twinkle in the moonlight.

"You're too young for these, apprentice!"
"Master, there are Magda Wessen novels on the Grey College bookshelves. I've read all of them."
"..."

Dangerous game to be playing with a Grey Lord Magister. Unlike pretty much anyone else, having read it doesn't necessarily mean it's too late for her. It is for Mathilde, but a spell that removes only parts of a memory is at least plausible.

@Boney You wanted to add the elfaction as a two AP action. I don't it'll get voted on, but that way it's on the action list and won't get forgotten.

Jyn Ryvia · Jun 10, 2022

@Boney did 'try using AV with enchanting go away because Mathy figured it won't work? Or did you forget to transfer it?

LadyLynn · Jun 10, 2022

K von Carstein said:
We have a general idea of it tho, so beginning by making them do the things they're more likely to be good at strikes me as more effective.

We have an idea, but a very limited one. We should absolutely use that, but if we only stick to that I think we are missing a great deal of potential from our members, and taking far too little action to change that.

I'm willing to make slightly less direct progress now, so that we can make significantly better decisions in the future.

Plus, if we only stick to our current idea of everyone's capabilities, then some members are going to run out of things they can contribute to very fast. Like Aksel, or Tochter, or Zlata, or Baba Niedzwenka, or... a bunch of people really.

mathymancer said:
We don't know for sure about every members every ability, sure. But we're not flying completely blind here. We could definitely make some speculative picks, but I think we should ground that speculation in what knowledge we do have, rather than just taking everyone on every mission. As an example I suggested the possiblity that Aksel, Baba Niedzwenka and Zlata might have insights on tributaries in general. Chlof suggested that Thorek might know something about Waystone Gold. Maybe those things are worth checking, maybe not, but that sort of thing makes a lot more sense to me than just working as if we have no knowledge.

There are currently eight different actions to take. Four of them have option specific specifications, which ends up as ~20 actions total. Will working with Zlata on Waystone Gold tell us if she will be useful for studying the Athel Loren network? Maybe, but I don't see how, and if we take everyone on every action we will waste a lot of time doing sub optimal work.

Perhaps the way to go is to think which actions that we have would benefit the most from many members. That way we might get an idea as to the capabilities of the various members but still avoid completely giving up on efficiency.

I agree with everything here, really. I just worry more about speculating too little than about speculating too much.

And yeah, I think actions that would benefit from many members would be good ones to start off with, I think.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
What job can each member do?

I'll try and parse this post in just a bit(gonna grab a bit of food first), but I just want to mention that using a spreadsheet for what members can/might be able to contribute to is an excellent idea that I think we should employ a lot.

I suspect spreadsheets in general will be extremely helpful for this Project.

Also, maybe Max could be helpful for Project actions with that trait that also makes him so good at paper writing? I don't remember what it's called, but I'm assuming it's something along the lines of "is good at listening to the ramblings of mildly mad geniuses and helping them make more sense". Just an idea I'm throwing out, no idea if it's applicable.

mathymancer · Jun 10, 2022

LadyLynn said:
And yeah, I think actions that would benefit from many members would be good ones to start off with, I think.

I think leylines might be this, and leylines might be a good action to start with anyway. I've got to go for now so I'll post more on this later, but just throwing it out there for now.

Alectai · Jun 10, 2022

BurnNote said:
Also, if give it to our apprentice for training (depending on her attitude to violence), then it's even more appropriate.

Eike is a pacifist. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just means she has to lean towards being more Gandalf the Grey instead of Knife in Shadows, which is also a Grey Wizard archetype. She's unlikely to appreciate cannonsword.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Someone I might become

Fantasy Addict

Sick and tired of being Sick and Tired

slightly confused ascendant

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion

Likes to go for a walk

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion