MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
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- DOOR STUCK DOOR STUCK PLEASE I BEG U
My honest thoughts is that it isn't a problem we can really solve. When issues start cropping up I think we can recruit some people to handle it for us.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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There are several problems with empowering Nordland through trade:
1) You're empowering a historically troublesome state who recently lost a lot of land, power, and legitimacy though the violation of a treaty.
2) Middenland wants that trade. They don't want their rival to get it.
3) The Eonir don't want to trade with the people who invaded and colonised their lands, they want to trade with their new allies and co-religionists. Sarvoi straight up said that a lot of people are worried about Nordland's army marching into Laurelorn with no warning.
Overall, Nordland needs to solve their own issues, and besides, they still have some power left—they host the Second Fleet, they have various road tolls that tax merchants travelling from Erengrad to Marienburg, and if the waystone project works a substantial part of the Forest of Shadows will become habitable.
1) You're empowering a historically troublesome state who recently lost a lot of land, power, and legitimacy though the violation of a treaty.
2) Middenland wants that trade. They don't want their rival to get it.
3) The Eonir don't want to trade with the people who invaded and colonised their lands, they want to trade with their new allies and co-religionists. Sarvoi straight up said that a lot of people are worried about Nordland's army marching into Laurelorn with no warning.
Overall, Nordland needs to solve their own issues, and besides, they still have some power left—they host the Second Fleet, they have various road tolls that tax merchants travelling from Erengrad to Marienburg, and if the waystone project works a substantial part of the Forest of Shadows will become habitable.
TimEd
Meteor maker
The elves don't have the numbers for that. And the pesky humans treat their people too disposably for that. They'd either need tacit permission to continue with the slaughters until
My view is that trading with an already hostile power is unlikely to stop them going to war with you, but trading with a friendly one makes them more likely to enter a defensive war in support of you.
Hence, if we try to arrange any trade, it should be between Laurelorn and Middenland.
Hence, if we try to arrange any trade, it should be between Laurelorn and Middenland.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
The border situation is resolved thought
Nordland is malding and can continue to do so, i do not particularily care for them.You know the more I consider the Norland 'issue' the more I think we might be blowing it out of proportion, I mean yes there is a risk of war, but it is hardly the only one in the Empire and the fact that the two sides are so mismatched, in a way that a drunk orc could not miss makes it really unlikely that Norland will move. As long as that stays the case then in a generation or two things will settle down, the prince who was humiliated will be dead, many of the lumber barons will have gone out of business or they will have moved on to other things.
The Eonir do not need to make formal peace, they just need to enforce the one they have for long enough and this time the fallible memories of mortals work for them and not against them
The Eonir do not need to make formal peace, they just need to enforce the one they have for long enough and this time the fallible memories of mortals work for them and not against them
TimEd
Meteor maker
It's the 'long enough' bit that is the issue. I do agree with you that this is a mostly solved problem already, since we're bringing much needed eyes into the workings of the Eonir, meaning we can explain to others their side of the story if ever those Nordlanders try to make this a bigger problem again.
Wood elves having tentative alliances with the dwarves would give them a massive boost though. Having dwarf trading partners empowers both races, since I can only assume both have things the other desires. And the Eonir do need strengthening because their weird over crowding issue is ridiculous.
Wood elves having tentative alliances with the dwarves would give them a massive boost though. Having dwarf trading partners empowers both races, since I can only assume both have things the other desires. And the Eonir do need strengthening because their weird over crowding issue is ridiculous.
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Were the Wastelands always wastelands? It doesn't exactly seem like the kind of place you want to head into, even if you're coming from the Forest of Shadows. And I'm surprised that Marienburg was a city that early. It's a nice place from a trade perspective, and defensible in a way, but it's also in a swamp. So being a nice place relies on other cities you want to trade with existing, and you having long range trade relations. I didn't think those structures existed at the time of Sigmar.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
They used to be westerlands but i think the Skaven-Fimir war that changed them happened before Sigmar consolidated the Empire.
- Location
- Czech Republic
It used to be extremely fertile land, but after elves left the continent Skaven and Fimir fought over the place and used some powerful magic that turned the place into what it is now.
This is from 1 edition so it is probably not canon for this quest.
The overcrowding is only an issue for one of their population groups, and in fact the one that generally doesn't eat casualties. And the people in power won't thank you for solving it. They could've done that themselves easily in a variety of ways (higher buildings, underground, change the law, refound a city), but it's not in their interest, because it's a big part of their power.
Anyone who doesn't want to deal with that can move out of the city, there's plenty of space. It just means a loss of privilege.
...reminds me of Sylvania. Maybe there's also a fucked up network there, though it seems less likely, given it's both older and not defended by intelligent people interested in keeping it like that, so it's more likely that someone would've tried to fix it back when they had the knowledge.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
I think only way to fix the wasteland is do what Panoramia is doing in K8P and spend a decade or two with large workforce to rehabiliate the land and hope that no new disaster comes along in the meantime.
- Location
- London, England
There's the stuff from 1e about the Skaven and Fimir fighting over it, but personally I prefer the 2e explanation.
And that is "It's actually still the Westerlands, which is what it was known as for most of history, but after Marienburg seceded imperial cartographers got pissy and started calling their land the Wasteland out of spite".
There are a bunch of small towns and villages throughout the Westerlands/Wastelands, its just that Marienburg remains such an economic and cultural powerhouse nobody else gets any real investment or look-in.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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There are a number of support villages surrounding Marienburg. This is a map from Winds of Chaos, the website that Boney often uses for maps:
Most geographical information is from Sold Down the River, which is 1st Edition, but it's the only source to truly dive into Marienburg at a deep level. Essentially, the Wastelands is split into four sections. The Bitter Moors to the West leading into the March of Couronne, largely abandoned aside from Broekwater and Almshoven, neither of which are doing particularly well. The Tumble Downs of the East leading to Laurelorn Forest, where most of the Villages border said forest and extract resources from it rather than the relatively barren hills they're close to. The Little Country to the Southwest, which is actually a fairly prosperous area that provides much needed resources to Marienburg, has swamps that provide goods, and includes the Gisoreux Road which moves into Fort Bergbres, then Castle Desfleux, then Gisoreux in Bretonnia. It has some seriously heavy tolls, but it's the primary solely Wastelander overland route into Bretonnia.
Then there is the Grootscher Marsh, also known as the Cursed Marsh. This is distinct from the Marshes of Madness in the Badlands, the Zombie Swamps next to Miragliano, or the Blighted Marsh of former Tylos. It's got some valuable resources such as rare herbs and ingredients, but is generally an unpleasant place full of nasty creatures and villages don't last very long, but people still attempt to make it out there.
Marienburg is Marienburg, and they make do with the resources acquired from overseas, the trade they receive from the Empire that needs to maintain trade with the world at large, the Tolls they exact from Gisoreux Road, the Old Coast Road, and the Middenheim Road (which as a reminder is part of the Old Dwarf Road from Karaz-A-Karak to former Sith Rionnisac and is highly frequented), and other sources.
Then there is the Grootscher Marsh, also known as the Cursed Marsh. This is distinct from the Marshes of Madness in the Badlands, the Zombie Swamps next to Miragliano, or the Blighted Marsh of former Tylos. It's got some valuable resources such as rare herbs and ingredients, but is generally an unpleasant place full of nasty creatures and villages don't last very long, but people still attempt to make it out there.
Marienburg is Marienburg, and they make do with the resources acquired from overseas, the trade they receive from the Empire that needs to maintain trade with the world at large, the Tolls they exact from Gisoreux Road, the Old Coast Road, and the Middenheim Road (which as a reminder is part of the Old Dwarf Road from Karaz-A-Karak to former Sith Rionnisac and is highly frequented), and other sources.
NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
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- Places
Eh, could be noncanon, but at the same time it doesn't contradict any of canon and explains something.
So I don't see any reason for Boney not to use it if that somehow comes up.
- Location
- Finland
What over crowding they have is artificial and could be solved the second those in power want it solved.
That said, alliance with dwarves would be beneficial to them, because suddenly Nordland would not be in danger of pissing of some elves nobody cares about and maybne Middenland, but also Karaz Ankor.
einargs
Verified Spiller of the Egg Yolk
- Location
- The Egg Yolk, Outer Layer
- Pronouns
- They/Them
This post exemplifies everything I love about this quest, and by extension Warhammer Fantasy. The sheer depth involved makes it feel incredibly real.
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
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- She/Her
I mean, the moment they do that, every single other province is suddenly gonna start paying a lot of attention, due to Middenland conquering a fellow Elector count, and if they conquer one, they might be willing to do it again, essentially breaking several unspoken rules of stuff you don't do.
Not to mention the Emperor who's presumely not gonna this slide down to the good old time of Three Emperor's where the empire is in a civil war due to every single provinces fighting each other.
So, Middenland could do it, but they'd probaly get dog-pilled by every single other province so fast that they'd barely have time to blink.
Nordland doesn't really need to fear a Middenland conquest like that, since it would be in the vast interest to not let Middenland get away with such a power-grab. Nordland's problem is more, in getting fellow Elector counts to be willing to help them in conquest of Laurelon
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I'm not even necessarily arguing that Middenland would actually do it, just that Nordland would have a fear of it.
But Luitpold isn't going to live forever, there's always the chance of a weak Emperor being elected. All it really takes is for the other provinces to be occupied with their own troubles and Middenland rushes it to present it as a fait-accompli.
And I'd argue it's not really about the Time of Three Emperors. That was a conflict about who was the rightful emperor and the conflict between the Cults of Taal, Ulric, and Sigmar. This would be about territorial or dynastic disputes between co-religionists.
Don't think that's politically viable. The Emperor and the other Electors aren't interested in a super powerful Middenland. It lacks the justification of enforcing treaties, and so it would be seen as Laurelorn making war on the Empire, and turning/corrupting Middenland to turn against them. The church of Sigmar would salivate over the chance to neuter the influence of the church of Ulric, and this would be a pretty good cause to do so.
So it ends up with exactly the kind of existential threat Laurelorn was seeking to avoid, except maybe more genocidal, because it would be both a religious war and one to defend the integrity of the Empire as a whole. They'd have one more ally, but I don't think Middenland would be that useful, because they'd probably descend right into a civil war.
Also, what does Laurelorn get if Middenland conquers Nordland? Their borders are already secured, and arguably it would make them less secure. Because now, the people trespassing would be benefiting Middenland, so they have Divided Loyalties. And they're right back where they started, because if Middenland says the treacherous forest elves are murdering their people, who will the empire side with? So in fact, Laurelorn itself should ensure that Nordland stays independent, and maybe not too friendly with Middenland.
It already is a religious conflict between the Ar-Ulric and the Grand Theogenist. It's been there in the background of the quest for a very long time that they've been fighting over this. Whenever we heard about it, it generally was primarily in terms of 'those two at it again'. The wider empire clearly perceives this as the current battleground for influence between the two main cults (the only ones with Electors).