Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting will open in 1 day, 23 hours
Reader mode
LadyLynn said:
I've seen a lot of talk about how Backfill will give the library more legitimacy as a real library, but how much is that actually the case, especially for a singular action?

EDIT: And is backfilling to make our library more "legit" not somewhat redundant when we've got plans for getting a crapton of books from other libraries, which will also give a huge assortment of books?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In regards to adding legitimacy, we don't know, but I believe the expectation is a decent amount. It gives more books than any of the other options and Colleges gives 4 Extensive and Esoteric, so we can expect more than that. Simply seeing it in action for once is a motivation that's in play.

There's some redundancy but not much. Vlag and Everpeak will like the Imperial books, Verena will like the Dwarven books, the Library of Mourning will like both. Everyone would appreciate at least some of what Backfill will give us.

veekie said:
A lot of institutional libraries were indicated to behave like Scrollbearers, even if they aren't Verenans. Their rare books are their claim to prestige.

They would be nuch harder to get on board if openly affiliated with an order that seeks to spread them
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Everpeak, Vlag, and Mournings aren't competing for prestige, while Tilea, Estalia, and Bretonnia also have Lorekeepers. 7 libraries willing to partner with us whatever our alignment, 8 if you want to spend a GD on the Librarium. That's a hell of a lot of books, and it's sharing our books with people who want to spread knowledge, which is very much a good thing.

Of the libraries who wouldn't want to share with us because of our alignment, we could always bribe the head librarians. Not always an option but given these aren't the most morality-inclined people anyway, I reckon it'd be pretty effective.

Jreengus said:
I'll be honest I have no idea what you consider the holes to be that need plugging but there are tons of different things backfill can target and we get the books at random so I feel like hoping backfill will plug any of the holes you care about it is a big gamble. The idea it will somehow plug all or most of them in a single action seems extremely unlikely.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not all or most, more like half or a third.

LadyLynn said:
I... what are you trying to say, exactly? That we shouldn't bring up options after other ones have already been heavily voted on?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not at all, sorry to give that impression. My argument was based on the likelihood of it succeeding and predictions of the future, not whether it'd be worth voting for Colleges this turn. There is merit to doing Colleges this turn, just wasn't arguing from that angle.

Thomasfoolery said:
I tried to avoid commenting on this, but you're making a habit of doing it constantly. I'd appreciate it if you dialed way back on making definitively declarative statements you're in no position to make.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sorry about that, I'll make sure to dial it back.
 
picklepikkl said:
Word of Boney you may have missed:


So it is, in fact, about the orcs as well as having concrete results. I am strongly in favor of doing followup recruitments in the future after we lay the foundations. However, the AP necessary to clear the orcs out of the mountains is something I raise an eyebrow at. We'll see how things go, but right now my subjective assessment of how likely it is we get Damsels in the future is way down unless it turns out we need them for some reason.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think "it's both" in the sense that taking care of the orcs would be a way to get them on board without concrete results in the sort of quid pro quo we've used to get other organizations on board. Not as well but either or. If we showed really good results, I bet we could tempt them in even with the orcs still out there... but of course in that case, it would be comparatively later in the project and they'd have less opportunity to contribute.
 
Actually is there a reason we do not use the Deciever part of the coin when acquiring books form institutions we want? Because let's say we go to Count Avon Strangler and tell him about having a book agreement and that we are paying/trading what every for copies of books he has that we want. Or use it against hoarders of knowledge.
 
no strong thoughts this time, I vaguely think that 'backfill' doesn't need to be done until we have the Libary about to open, but at the same time it's good to get that type of stuff done when there isn't anything fighting it for AP.

of course there is my old go too vote

[X] [COLLEGE] Combat Trained Pegasus and trainer(13 CF)

one day......
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Liminal Realms
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, The Karaz Ankor: Extensive and Esoteric Eonir, a dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen

This plan gives everyone what they want. You wanna do Apparitions next turn? There's your Apparitions. You a long time AV supporter? The Apparitions and Power Stones are right up your alley. You wanna investigate the Lady's parentage? There you go. Bring in the EIC to the Eonir? Boom: Trade Extensive Eonir. Write a dwarf diplomacy book? We got ya. Thank a hedge witch? You know it.

Delays the backfill, but we can always save it for another turn. We may go Drakenhof next turn so it wouldn't be help us partner with a library next turn anyway if we do that. Besides, not like we're going light on book acquisitions with this plan.
 
Last edited:
mathymancer said:
I'm voting back-fill but this seems decent as far as a Colleges of Magic purchase goes. If you don't like liminal realms consider instead getting books on the Aethyr - we already have 2 BOÖK on the subject so its less BOÖK, but it still saves us the 4 College Favour (which is the really expensive part) and the Aethyr is a pretty broad subject.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Good suggestion! I'll vote for that too.

[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Liminal Realms
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Aethyr
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
 
Briefvoice said:
I think "it's both" in the sense that taking care of the orcs would be a way to get them on board without concrete results in the sort of quid pro quo we've used to get other organizations on board. Not as well but either or. If we showed really good results, I bet we could tempt them in even with the orcs still out there... but of course in that case, it would be comparatively later in the project and they'd have less opportunity to contribute.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That would be really nice if so, because then in a few turns we can swing back, hopefully with the aid of the Father if @mathymancer is correct, and grab 'em. But I think it means both.
Nurgle said:
Actually is there a reason we do not use the Deciever part of the coin when acquiring books form institutions we want? Because let's say we go to Count Avon Strangler and tell him about having a book agreement and that we are paying/trading what every for copies of books he has that we want. Or use it against hoarders of knowledge.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Deceiver makes them believe that we are telling the truth as we know it, not that we aren't wrong or crazy.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Liminal Realms
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Aethyr
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, The Karaz Ankor: Extensive and Esoteric Eonir, a dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
 
picklepikkl said:
That would be really nice if so, because then in a few turns we can swing back, hopefully with the aid of the Father if @mathymancer is correct, and grab 'em. But I think it means both.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well if that were to be the case then screw them, because "both show us results we can benefit from and do us a huge favor" is a crazy bid that I can't see anyone else demanding. One or the other!

I don't think "the Father" has anything to do with it, and frankly I'd like to just ignore the Father for the next few years. The Father is lower priority to me than apparition binding in terms of what I'm interested in.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Back-fill.
[X] [PURCHASE] Write-in. - A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, Apparitions: Extensive and Esoteric Imperial, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, The Karaz Ankor: Extensive and Esoteric Eonir, a dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Write-in. - A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen

I'm approval voting all the [PURCHASE] votes that gifts a dwarven axe to Baba Brzeginias. She helped us out a lot with her scrying to identify the enemy in the area, it's an appropriate gift to her village and from Mathilde, it'll help to build a bit of good will with the Hedgewise, and finally I appreciate repeating the same kind of gesture we did when we gifted some dwarven ale to the Bright Lord Magister who figured out the MMAPP.

I'm not really invested in which specific books we do or don't buy out of pocket this turn, but I'll be sad if gifting the axe ends up being axed cut in the midst of all the other debating.
 
Last edited:
I think by both, Boney was saying that both would work.

And in terms of recruiting, it's probably significantly mor valuable to recruit people before the foundations rather than after, as otherwise their insights aren't included in the foundational theory we're developing, but something we rationalise later to make their contribution fit those theories.

As a result, if we don't think it's worth recruiting the Damsels or whoever when it would be most valuable, why would we ever do so when it's even less worthwhile?
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Liminal Realms
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Aethyr
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, Apparitions: Extensive and Esoteric Imperial, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, Apparitions: Extensive and Esoteric Imperial, The Karaz Ankor: Extensive and Esoteric Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen

Switching to the Apparitions purchase and adding a Karaz Ankor+Apparition vote.

If the Library College vote picks up more steam I'll switch away from the Apparitions purchase, but for now I'm sticking to this because I just... don't really like the extended "we should wait with doing this until we do the prep action, and we should wait with the prep action until the time is optimal" discussions.

I think I value being done with that over the lost CF/gold. Might add a powerstone vote too.

EDIT:
Adding Power Stones votes, one without Apparitions, one with...

[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, Power Stones: Esoteric Imperial, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, Apparitions: Extensive and Esoteric Imperial, Power Stones: Esoteric Imperial, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen

And the versions with the Karaz Ankor books purchase.

[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, Power Stones: Esoteric Imperial, The Karaz Ankor: Extensive and Esoteric Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, Apparitions: Extensive and Esoteric Imperial, Power Stones: Esoteric Imperial, The Karaz Ankor: Extensive and Esoteric Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
 
Last edited:
picklepikkl said:
That would be really nice if so, because then in a few turns we can swing back, hopefully with the aid of the Father if @mathymancer is correct, and grab 'em. But I think it means both.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Boney said:
"As far as you are aware," she echoes. "As far as I am aware, too. But we would have to become much further aware for that to be a safe endeavour. And the effort of becoming so much further aware is effort that could be spent elsewhere - such as, for example, the Iron Orcs of the Irrana Mountains. But if you were to come to us with something more tangible than dreams, then perhaps we might be tempted." She gives you a parting smile and a little wave before she disappears back into the crowd.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The context of what she says is fairly clear.

They want to join in in theory, but they don't know if they can because they have no idea if Athel Loren is okay with it and it could therefore cause issues domestically.

So, we either
1) Free up their hands so that they can begin the no doubt arduous task of talking to Athel Loren by killing one of the issues they currently expend their hands on, namely, the orks
2) Provide tangible results, which means the project has enough promise that potential Athel Loren domestic issues are worth it regardless.

The Boney quote exists, but its actually important to remember what it is quoting. Its quoting Andres asserting one of these two possibilities as truth in response to different poster assorting the other possibility as truth.

Of course, achieving both would likely get us more favour, but just one of these will suffice for some involvement.
 
Last edited:
pucflek said:
The context of what she says is fairly clear.

They want to join in in theory, but they don't know if they can because they have no idea if Athel Loren is okay with it and it could therefore cause issues domestically.

So, we either
1) Free up their hands so that they can begin the no doubt arduous task of talking to Athel Loren by killing one of the issues they currently expend their hands on, namely, the orks
2) Provide tangible results, which means the project has enough promise that potential Athel Loren domestic issues are worth it regardless.

The Boney quote exists, but its actually important to remember what it is quoting. Its quoting Andres asserting one of these two possibilities as truth in response to different poster assorting the other possibility as truth.

Of course, achieving both would likely get us more favour, but just one of these will suffice for some involvement.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Good points, thank you for breaking it down that way.

Excellent, in that case I think swinging back for them in the future is a solid idea, especially if we hit a wall with our Waystone research and need some new ideas to break through it. And the books we're picking up this turn will help us figure out if the Father will help us recruit them -- it would be nice (and theologically interesting) if the answer was yes, but I think Mathilde's native charm and winsome personality can skate by if it turns out the answer is no.
 
fictionfan said:
Considering that about half the enemies of order are of massive hordes variety machine guns would be a massive game changer in general. However there is a problem machine guns need bullets. Lots of bullets, tons of bullet, more bullets then the dwarfs could ever craft. In world war 2 about 5K to 5OK bullets were shot for every death.

I have doubts that they could craft 50k bullets between battles.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's human gunners against human targets. I feel confident in saying that the ratio of bullets to deaths would be significantly better for the dawi against skaven/greenskins.
 
Alratan said:
And in terms of recruiting, it's probably significantly mor valuable to recruit people before the foundations rather than after, as otherwise their insights aren't included in the foundational theory we're developing, but something we rationalise later to make their contribution fit those theories.

As a result, if we don't think it's worth recruiting the Damsels or whoever when it would be most valuable, why would we ever do so when it's even less worthwhile?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Good question! The answer is that recruiting beforehand means having to promise favors and payment while recruiting afterwards could mean recruiting without promising favors and payment. Recruiting after showing results is less costly to make up for being "less worthwhile".

Also, I think there's way too much confidence that "oh, they weren't in the foundational theory; they're worthless to us". Groups can still know valuable things that can be useful without being part of the foundational paradigm! Ultimately the waystones are physical objects that work in a certain way and accomplish certain things, regardless of what magical paradigm you're using to look at them.
 
Alratan said:
I think by both, Boney was saying that both would work.

And in terms of recruiting, it's probably significantly mor valuable to recruit people before the foundations rather than after, as otherwise their insights aren't included in the foundational theory we're developing, but something we rationalise later to make their contribution fit those theories.

As a result, if we don't think it's worth recruiting the Damsels or whoever when it would be most valuable, why would we ever do so when it's even less worthwhile?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The people we're recruiting will be the ones sharing their insights, and if they think that their insights don't fit with our theories they're liable to say so. Like, if we laid the foundations without any Runesmiths and our theories failed to account for the influence of Runes at all, then the Runesmiths would rightly tell us to get back to the drawing board, because our theories outright failed to include plenty of crucial information on how Waystones worked.

On the other hand, if it turns out that, I don't know, advanced Ghur mechanics are actually crucial to building Waystones, I still don't think Laying the Foundations without Ambers would be a problem, because even if none of the other collaborators have the specific specialist knowledge needed to figure things out, their collective knowledge base would include enough information on Ghur to understand what the Ghur is doing even if no one gets the how. So while we wouldn't be able to finish the project without eventually getting the Ambers involved, our foundations would be compatible with their insights, and they'd be able to slot their insights in without us needing to rebuild any theories from scratch.

In theory, then, we just want to make sure that our initial contributors have a broad enough knowledge base that even if we don't know everything we might ultimately need, we know enough to account for what we might need. And our current spread of contributors does a pretty good job of that, with the Ice Witches even bringing in a faction with some flavor of divine magic and a focus on Waystone stewardship. I might personally prefer to bring in a relevant Imperial cult before we started, but that brings us to the practical side of things, which is that we have enough impatient human factions involved that we can't put off actual research any longer so we need to smash the Lay the Foundations button anyway. Our starting contributors have a solid breadth to them; that will have to do.
 
I'll be honest, though I am interested in the Damsels I do not want to do Iron Orc hunting next turn. We have just come off a turn with 15 parts of adventure, so in terms of the narrative I would rather keep things more compact and get more stuff done research wise over the next turn rather than go on another military/intrigue campaign. We do not even know if one action will be enough to deal enough damage to the orcs. After all this was offered as one of the main locations for the Project and the orcs as our first challenge. Being able to deal with them in one go would be a bit like being able to handle the Norland situation in one action.
 
[X] [DWARF] No purchase.

Killing my vote for now. I think trying to discuss this is screwing with my mental health again. I get the vibe most people aren't really interested in talking about the Library vote this turn, and I'm exerting a lot of mental energy to accomplish nothing other than annoy and distract people.

EDIT: I might revote when I stop having a headache, I suppose.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting will open in 1 day, 23 hours
Remove ads
Back
Top