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The thing that frustrates me is when the thread gets bored while waiting for an update, starts spinning its wheels, and comes up with some crazy thing that We've Got To Do Right Now, jumping straight to the front of the line of the stuff we've already talked about and prioritized via sheer novelty factor.

For some, it might be an actual opportunity to try something that they thought of more than a year ago. To quote myself from when thread was deciding where Mathilde would go after K8P :

- Just because Drakenhof got collapsed doesn't mean everything has been cleaned out, the number of scerets/vampire corpses/still sleeping vampires hiding in the catacombes need handling

My desire to go dig under Drakenhoff is older than your desire to play HR (that was a bit much) the Library and any of its staffing needs. And I don't think I am THAT special that I was the only one to wonder about what's laying under all that rubble even then.
 
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Literally Stole Ghal Maraz, Left Naggaroth Worse Than He Found It
I didn't know these two.
I missed or forgot that Wilhelmine von Bucht is the one who stole Ghal Maraz. How old is she?
I also didn't know that Walther Kupfer screwed up in Naggaroth. I thought that he deprived it of both citizen and slaves and then made it out alive, resulting in an overall success. What was his screwup?
Also, I had hoped that Reiner Starke was more mellow at this point in time/in Quest canon. But I guess that even then, his more realistic levels of fanaticism are still an issue.

Anyway, I wasn't thinking that people in the Grey Order might suspect that Mathilde is a double agent in a super long con. Just that they might suspect that she is selfish and/or more loyal towards certain persons and entities that don't represent the Empire and are amassing a worrying amount of power than she is to anything listed in Article 1. Or that she might be a full on Ranaldite, into all four aspects just as much as Starke is into Sigmar with all that that entails, except so talented and successful that it hasn't bitten her in the ass yet. Mildly suspect these things in any case. In other words "Mathilde is definitely a great asset and someone you want to have on your side, but don't just blindly trust her around temptations of power or riches because we don't know for sure if that might spell trouble after all".

Whatever. That's just where I was coming from. I didn't quite expect that the leadership of the whole Grey Order is kinda suspect and freewheeling and that anyone shitting themselves at the thought of what the Grey Order could get away with are actually damn well justified. With that being the case though, I am very very happy that we are on the inside looking out as one of those eight goofballs at the head of the magical secret police circus. Now I'm looking forward to eventually getting into intra-College politics even more than before. It sounds fun as hell and sitting on Algard's Council must be a pure hoot.
Actual Books of Nagash would be the exception to that because they have pieces of his soul in them so they are as possessed as any chaos grimoire but other than that the way necromancy books kill you is generally by giving bad instructions on how to cast necromancy like later copies of the Liber Mortis do.
Most major Necromancy tomes (and bootleg copies of the Liber Mortis) apparently radiate Dhar, meaning that there's got to be more going on than bad instructions. Booby traps might be the norm among paranoid, Dhar-addled authors.
One Out Of Three Bosses Are Still Alive
Huh? Both Belegar and Marrisith are still alive. Who is the second dead boss?
It would be required to copy-paste entire libraries, and hasn't appeared on the list of possibilities due to a lack of libraries who have agreed to be copy-pasted. If that isn't a needed capability, then you don't need an army of scribes.
I thought Quinsberry's Library qualifies, making mass scribe employment relevant for the first time next turn.
Contractually Incapable Of Being Subtle

Anyway I'm all for the book mining as a cool action that brings narrative focus on the library. We might get a full update or even a mini-turn out of the expedition to the bowels of the vampiric castle we destroyed. What will scribes get, a throwaway segment appended to other more interesting actions?
As I see it, we're already going to get a couple of exciting actions next turn, so delaying the exciting archeology action to the turn after that is not a major loss and will definitely risk us getting bored.

That said, @Boney is hiring scribes for the KAU through the EIC a KAU action, an EIC action or an action we could initiate through either organization? And if it's the latter, would there be any reason to expect different results from the two options?
Alas, if it's an EIC action then we run into the people who want to use the EIC action to start investigating trade with Laurelorn. I like the school in Karak Eight Peaks best, for that reason.
If we are going to discuss how having a proper order of things matters, then investigating trade with Laurelorn can definitely wait until after we actually interacted with a House that we might benefit from by appealing to them through trade. As for the school, that would be a very slow and long term way of getting scribes. I'm not against it, but I am only for it combined with or after we hire scribes through the EIC. As for hiring through Scriptisi or Verena or some other established cult or organization with an agenda, I'd rather not do that at all.
Mathilde did donate a lot of Runework - not a significant sacrifice by her standards but quite vast by the standards of anyone who hasn't played a major part in reclaiming a lost Dwarf Hold.
But that's what I mean. Mathilde has spent acquired resources and connections in order to further her standing elsewhere. But she hasn't observably stood before a hard and painful Divided Loyalties™ decision and chosen the Empire or the College(s) over something dear to her personally. I say observably, because in actuality she has. She chose loyalty to Stirland over giving her blackmailers full access. She chose remaining in good standing over ultimate necromantic power or a chance to resurrect Abelhelm. But neither of those are known to the Grey Order as an institution or to any one of her Grey LM colleagues personally.

Ultimately, what definitely speaks in her favor above all else though is that she is the source of "Queekish" and is right now working on what might be the next massive treasure trove of magical knowledge (Laurelorn secret sharing conclave). So in all honesty she could be an actual Vampire and Algard might still let her continue without bothering her right now.
My main reason for wanting the shadow HQ over the Eonir thing is that the shadow HQ action has been sitting there forever, and I think old stuff we never got around to should take precedent. I also think we should have set up a shadow HQ last turn and I'm still salty about that waste of an EIC action.
I actually have been against setting up a Shadow HQ in the Sunken Palace since it first came up. I don't like the idea of a non-Ranaldite running the first place we ever dedicated to Ranald. But I get how that opinion might not be widely shared.
I for one still desperately want to do AV Powerstones, but have sort of given up after it got delayed for AV Divinity and then Divinity's supporters seemed to lose interest entirely once their preferred action was finished. It was pretty disheartening and has really soured me on future "we'll do X you want to do after we do Y first" general agreements.
I'm still salty about that. Not that we did AV Divinity. But that we then decided to throw it at Ranald and hope for approval. AV Divinity was the best lead to making AV something special and more valuable than liquid DF. That avenue getting completely shut down is what made me lose quite a bit of interest in AV. Like, I won't stand in its way when it competes with other stuff that isn't time sensitive like self-improvement or loot science, but it definitely doesn't feel like a priority to me anymore.
Turning the coin to the father and contacting the daughters is kind of following up on the divine AV research. It's not advancing our understanding of the AV, but it does make use of the results we did get.
I know that this is my emotions speaking and not an objective assessment, but to me the whole Father business feels like an overly complicated consolation prize. I know that a lot of people love all the speculation and that I too have been dragged along into trying to optimize our chances of actually profiting from the Father, but in the end the "Gods as extended family with many names and secrets" line of inquiry just doesn't grab me as much as the "Gods as weird and intricate Aethyr entities" line of inquiry. And the material incentive of likely getting a stable alliance with certain Hedgewise also only goes so far.
Armies of vampires are going to attack K8P? The same one with the doom tower that killed millions of orcs? I mean that would be a great way to have fewer vampires in the world, but I cannot think of any book in the world that would make a vampire attempt to attack a fortified dwarf hold other than maybe one of the Books of Nagash.
Not K8P. But they might attack the convoys between Sylvania and K8P.

In fact, I just came up with another potential reason not to vote for bookmining right now: I believe that not only is there a good chance of such an action resulting in a potential mini-adventure, but that even if we could opt out and leave all the digging to the Dwarves, it would actually be an interesting and fun mini-adventure with lots of potential excitement, tense moments, meaningful risks and interesting world-building. Which sounds like a reason to vote for it, but I for one am a bit burned out by our two back-to-back mini-adventures and would like at least a couple of normal turns in a row. So I'd rather do "Digging into Drakenhof" in an IRL month or two from now.
 
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Not K8P. But they might attack the convoys between Sylvania and K8P.

In fact, I just came up with another potential reason not to vote for bookmining right now: I believe that not only is there a good chance of such an action resulting in a potential mini-adventure, but that even if we could opt out and leave all the digging to the Dwarves, it would actually be an interesting and fun mini-adventure with lots of potential excitement, tense moments, meaningful risks and interesting world-building. Which sounds like a reason to vote for it, but I for one am a bit burned out by our two back-to-back mini-adventures and would like at least a couple of normal turns in a row. So I'd rather do "Digging into Drakenhof" in an IRL month or two from now.

Why would we have to use a convoy? Much as I would like to move metric tons of forbidden books I do not think that is in the cards. If all of Evil Dumbledore's books could fit in a gyro with room to spare odds are all the actually dangerous books could likewise be put in a gyro and gotten out of there before the local vampires , most of whom are engaged in open war, even know what is going on.
 
I also didn't know that Walther Kupfer screwed up in Naggaroth. I thought that he deprived it of both citizen and slaves and then made it out alive, resulting in an overall success. What was his screwup?

Kupfer didn't screw up, he just turned a semi-stable city of dark elves into an incredibly unstable city of revolting slaves and feuding nobles, hence why Boney described him having "Left Naggaroth Worse Than He Found It"—because when he left, everything was on fire.
 
Marrisith isn't a boss, she's a partner. I meant Borek, who technically isn't dead, but people would like to think so.
Whoops. Completely slipped my mind. Less because I forgot about the whole Dum debacle (completely impossible) and more because I guess I never saw him as much of a boss. We came representing Belegar, brought along more than half of the firepower and personnel, and Borek (was forced to) run his expeditionary council as a cooperation of six equal voices. He felt more like a client or at best producer of the expedition than its leader, let alone its general. Poor lad.
Why would we have to use a convoy? Much as I would like to move metric tons of forbidden books I do not think that is in the cards. If all of Evil Dumbledore's books could fit in a gyro with room to spare odds are all the actually dangerous books could likewise be put in a gyro and gotten out of there before the local vampires , most of whom are engaged in open war, even know what is going on.
Remember the limited space we had for Black College loot? If we're going to actually march in with Dawi and mine the place like a vein of precious metals, then I expect that we will have quite a bit more loot than what a single Vampire and his minions brought together in Teufelheim. And that we won't be satisfied unless we drag out everything of value, including mundane things like coinage and antique furniture. So no, I don't think a single trip with the Gyrocarriage will be enough. Not when a throng of Dawi are involved.
Kupfer didn't screw up, he just turned a semi-stable city of dark elves into an incredibly unstable city of revolting slaves and feuding nobles, hence why Boney described him having "Left Naggaroth Worse Than He Found It"—because when he left, everything was on fire.
But then how is that a negative on par with his colleagues? Walther Kupfer as most iconic and exemplary Grey LM?
 
But then how is that a negative on par with his colleagues? Walther Kupfer as most iconic and exemplary Grey LM?
Because it shows exemplary ability to sabotage systems and breed discontent within societies to such a level that to this day noble families feud over the bullshit he put in place. He could apply that to any place in the Empire and it's almost certain nobody would even notice unless he told them.
 
And I don't think I am THAT special that I was the only one to wonder about what's laying under all that rubble even then.
Fwiw, Mathilde thought of it herself even before that, on turn 28:
(You're distracted from your task by a while by an unexpected pang of regret that you levelled Castle Drakenhof. How much could you have learned from but a single book written by him?)
I would assume that doing anything about it earlier was off the table from a mix of Abelhelm's death being raw, not being in a position to do so while busy as Loremaster, and OOC as part of not re-litigating votes, since we voted to destroy Castle Drakenhof and thus the opportunities that would've been made available from that.

Now, it's been a decade since his death, Mathilde has even more latitude in how to do her job, and we have a blank check from Belegar in acquiring B O O K, so the circumstances have changed in a way to make this possible. Either that, or the Dhar taint has finally gotten to Mathilde :V
 
But then how is that a negative on par with his colleagues? Walther Kupfer as most iconic and exemplary Grey LM?
I think the relevant point is that he is a badass enough dude with sufficient ability to manipulate social situations to his own advantage that he could wind up in the slave pits of one of the worst places in the world, cause the entire civil structure to collapse into violent anarchy, and get home safely. This is an astonishingly dangerous sort of person to keep close to any sort of levers of power if your job is Maintain The Status Quo, because they have the proven capacity to upend an established order if they don't like it.

It's not that he isn't a great guy to have on your side. It's that if he ever decides that your side should stop being a thing, he might be able to accomplish that.
 
We don't know what is in there; there may very well be things that, say, Nefreta is unwilling to see fall into mortal hands. So the risk is unknown but probably high.
Hmm... well I guess Mathilde could take some time out of her schedule to retake Silver Pinnacle if Nefrata insists.
Not sure it counts as a Karak, but it was definitely fairly important so maybe it was.
 
Hmm... well I guess Mathilde could take some time out of her schedule to retake Silver Pinnacle if Nefrata insists.
Not sure it counts as a Karak, but it was definitely fairly important so maybe it was.
Ah yes. Let's go head to head against a Vampire that makes Azerbaijan look like a chump in her home territory. I'm sure nothing will go wrong.
 
It's not that he isn't a great guy to have on your side. It's that if he ever decides that your side should stop being a thing, he might be able to accomplish that.

Boney did say he was one of four people who had the ability to destroy the Elementalists guild.

Come to think of it, if you were going to pick a Wizard to be given the job of destroying the Elementalists, it would probably come down to a choice between Mathilde, Walther Kupfer, Thyrus Gormann, and Gehenna.
 
Ah yes. Let's go head to head against a Vampire that makes Azerbaijan look like a chump in her home territory. I'm sure nothing will go wrong.
Well that post seemed to imply her coming to us., Nefrata dies Lahmians start infighting, sudden dwarves army is there with magical support.
Though I was mostly joking.
 
Boney did say he was one of four people who had the ability to destroy the Elementalists guild.
I assume it's less ability and more "the best choice". I'm sure there are many more in the Colleges that are able to dismantle the Elementalists, it's just that Boney considered those four the best choices for it from an in universe point of view.
 
Remember the limited space we had for Black College loot? If we're going to actually march in with Dawi and mine the place like a vein of precious metals, then I expect that we will have quite a bit more loot than what a single Vampire and his minions brought together in Teufelheim. And that we won't be satisfied unless we drag out everything of value, including mundane things like coinage and antique furniture. So no, I don't think a single trip with the Gyrocarriage will be enough. Not when a throng of Dawi are involved.

It is not actually gold though, it is books, which are far lighter and most of the books in there can travel by land fine because no vampire if going to risk fighting dwarfs over Vlad's collection of Nehekaran smut or the like. :V
 
It is not actually gold though, it is books, which are far lighter and most of the books in there can travel by land fine because no vampire if going to risk fighting dwarfs over Vlad's collection of Nehekaran smut or the like. :V
You underestimate the lengths nostalgia can drive people to do. That smut might be the last thing they remember of their lover!
 
Ah yes. Let's go head to head against a Vampire that makes Azerbaijan look like a chump in her home territory. I'm sure nothing will go wrong.
Agreed, let us not follow the example of Dwinbar Eldagnisson.

"I got nothing to fear from Queen Vampire Bitch and her daughters. My blood's half Bugman's, and there's few Manlings alive or Undead who can stand a drop as potent as that. I'll march in and take that place tonight, piece a' pish. Put some sausages on, I'll be back for breakfast." —Dwinbar Eldagnisson, Dwarf Troll slayer (deceased)

(And Mathilde wouldn't even have the excuse of being piss-drunk!)
 
But that's what I mean. Mathilde has spent acquired resources and connections in order to further her standing elsewhere. But she hasn't observably stood before a hard and painful Divided Loyalties™ decision and chosen the Empire or the College(s) over something dear to her personally. I say observably, because in actuality she has. She chose loyalty to Stirland over giving her blackmailers full access. She chose remaining in good standing over ultimate necromantic power or a chance to resurrect Abelhelm. But neither of those are known to the Grey Order as an institution or to any one of her Grey LM colleagues personally.

Ultimately, what definitely speaks in her favor above all else though is that she is the source of "Queekish" and is right now working on what might be the next massive treasure trove of magical knowledge (Laurelorn secret sharing conclave). So in all honesty she could be an actual Vampire and Algard might still let her continue without bothering her right now.

How many Grey LMs would just happen to have something that's personally dear to them and the Empire come into direct conflict - beyond the whole habitually risking life and sanity thing?

The Bursar and Algard seem to have made decisions on what is good for the Empire (just as Mathilde did with Heidi) but without having a conflict where either the Empire or something precious to them must lose. Then there's Kurtis Krammovitch with his divided loyalties - he seems to have very much avoided giving a clear answer and is thriving in the grey areas of the Articles. Compared to him Mathilde is downright respectable.

Queekish is certainly very big on its own but Mathilde's extraordinary performance with the Dawi is also bound to turn a lot of heads. Besides more than any single action is Mathilde being very reliable; she produces a steady stream of results - some revolutionary and world shaking (Queekish, anti-Waagh, Vlag, military victories and alliances) others merely circumstantially useful (MAP; EIC; the mountain of papers; being badass at Battle Magic). Mathilde had many points where she could have leveraged her increasingly immense accomplishments towards a sinecure or wizardly self development but she's still going above and beyond for stuff that the Grey Order approves of.

I think the relevant point is that he is a badass enough dude with sufficient ability to manipulate social situations to his own advantage that he could wind up in the slave pits of one of the worst places in the world, cause the entire civil structure to collapse into violent anarchy, and get home safely. This is an astonishingly dangerous sort of person to keep close to any sort of levers of power if your job is Maintain The Status Quo, because they have the proven capacity to upend an established order if they don't like it.

It's not that he isn't a great guy to have on your side. It's that if he ever decides that your side should stop being a thing, he might be able to accomplish that.

Didn't Algard literally go 'Luitpold is a responsible ruler he can be trusted with Queekish' at one point? Seems like the leadership of the Grey Order makes their own executive decisions on higher end political stuff just as much as Mathilde does.

I do wonder how Mathilde's closeness to Heidi is seen by Algard and Dragomas. Heidi's questioning if Mathilde can win a duel against Dragomas suggests that she did butt heads with at least part of the current College leadership so it is interesting that neither party approached Mathilde to sway things in one direction or another.
 
Agreed, let us not follow the example of Dwinbar Eldagnisson.



(And Mathilde wouldn't even have the excuse of being piss-drunk!)
Neferata's main source of undead chaff comes from the legions of people who come in desiring to take her down, in both senses of the word, and failing. She has an army of them. Either a lot of people want to kill her or lay with her, but my bets are on both.
 
I do wonder how Mathilde's closeness to Heidi is seen by Algard and Dragomas. Heidi's questioning if Mathilde can win a duel against Dragomas suggests that she did butt heads with at least part of the current College leadership so it is interesting that neither party approached Mathilde to sway things in one direction or another.

Not necessarily. Heidi strikes me as the sort of person who would want to have a plan to deal with Dragonas even if they never had the least argument so far, in a 'better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it' way.
 
To be fair, it's natural to be nervous about a guy who can turn into a Dragon who's close to the Emperor and thus to you.
 
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