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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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ScottishMongol said:
I have my doubts. By and large the single most important place to protect with armor would be the head, and peasants would wear a helmet even if they couldn't get any other piece of armor. Following that they would protect the vital organs, i.e. a breastplate. Your extremities aren't as important - sure, nobody wants to lose a limb, but it's better to live without an arm than to be...dead. Kind of like this famous image.
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Glau said:
I realize this is hoisting from a few pages back, but have you ever heard of jack-and-chains? It was a super-minimized collar-shoulders-elbows set of plates connected down the arms by flat chains, worn over a gambeson. I only heard of it a few months ago, but apparently it is extremely effective as armor, only putting metal where blows could otherwise cut through cloth.

Apparently very common as cheap merc armor.
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Honestly it does nothing to protect against any sort of stab with a sharp implement arguably much more likely and also more lethal than a slash at a gambeson. Maybe they did exist because fuck what do I know sitting cushy in my office chair but from that office chair the jack and chains doesn't really seem too effective as a sort of armor. Useless against projectiles, only good against slashing attacks on certain facings, does nothing to prevent being stabbed center mass which is again far more dangerous than a slash along the extremities and about as useful against blunt weapons as it is against stabbing ones.
 
Boney said:
One thing that Kislev would have going for it is momentum, because at the time the Fire Spire was the heart of magical scholarship in the Old World. But then the Spire and most of its residents were obliterated when Praag fell.
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I still have no idea what the Fire Spire actually was. Who used it? What was it about?
 
Shane_357 said:
I still have no idea what the Fire Spire actually was. Who used it? What was it about?
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From Realm of the Ice Queen:
This imposing, narrow spire is still the tallest structure in Praag, despite losing its top two stories in the War. It was built as a magical college by Z'ra Rudolf II, who was fascinated by the magical arts and wished to gather all sorcerers to the city, be they ice witches, hags, or the strange wizards of the Empire. Traditionalist Ice Witches and Hags looked on in horror as, soon enough, the heights of the tower were bursting with Aethyric flames, arcs of frost-fire, and alchemical explosions, causing the townsfolk to dub it the "Fire Spire." However, the witches' vocal disapproval was soon proven wise for, during the Great War, the tower acted as a lightning rod to Chaos sorcerers and was forever twisted by Dark Magic. Now, the Fire Spire stands as a testament to the witches' warnings, for none who enter its haunted chambers return; but, even so, the promise of lost magical wonders continues to tempt desperate treasure hunters. The Fire Spire still attracts both natural and unnatural phenomena, and being near it during a storm is a very bad idea.
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(Z'ra is the traditional title for the ruler of Pragg)
 
Shane_357 said:
I still have no idea what the Fire Spire actually was. Who used it? What was it about?
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It was the magic school of the old world. Imagine a place we're hedge wizards, ice witches , Hags and every other non evil magic caster came to Kislev and studied magic. When the great Chaos war happen it started off with chaos attacking the fire spire and everyone in it never coming out and assumed dead.

It was the center of magical learning for centuries in the old world. There is untold riches of knowledge and actual treasure in it.
 
Nurgle said:
It was the magic school of the old world. Imagine a place we're hedge wizards, ice witches , Hags and every other non evil magic caster came to Kislev and studied magic. When the great Chaos war happen it started off with chaos attacking the fire spire and everyone in it never coming out and assumed dead.

It was the center of magical learning for centuries in the old world. There is untold riches of knowledge and actual treasure in it.
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Exactly how prominent it was and how long it lasted aren't exactly stated.

It might have been a single ruler's pet project that only lasted a few decades.
 
Oh. So someone with a belt that burned off Dhar might go for a jaunt? Not out of the question that some records of past research remain. Who knows, maybe someone was researching Waystones.
 
Nurgle said:
See the problem is it is from the 2nd rpg so it is old warhammer lore.
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2nd edition also forms the bedrock for this quest.

Nurgle said:
They on purposely left a lot of thing vague.
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They certainly did.

But my personal interpretation of the passage is that the Fire Spire in no way lasted for centuries. Like how the fears of the traditionalists "were soon proven wise", which would suggest to me a period more in the realm of decades at best.
 
Nurgle said:
See the problem is it is from the 2nd rpg so it is old warhammer lore.
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The cut-off for 'old' in the sense that it doesn't fit in well with more recent canon is about 1e of the WFRP RPG and 5th of the WFB wargame. WFRP 2e was 2005-2009, so about the same time as WFB 7th, so pretty much everything in it fits in well with 6th-8th. Except that it was set post-Storm of Chaos and the Storm of Chaos was later completely retconned away.

(WFRP 3e was a garbage fire and WFRP 4e is younger than this quest)
 
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I still mention that 'Sold down the river' is the turning point on 1e into 2e, not fully there, but when it started to take the vague shape of what 2e would look like.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I still mention that 'Sold down the river' is the turning point on 1e into 2e, not fully there, but when it started to take the vague shape of what 2e would look like.
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Yeah, if you go book to book 1e is a lot more of a mixed bag than the other editions. It started with WFB 2nd Edition in 86 and was still publishing up until 6th Edition in 02. Stone and Steel is another example of a book right on the cusp, it has a lot of really solid information on Dwarven society and an early version of Rune rules that is really recognizable, then it swings right into 'Priests of Grimnir can cast Fireball'.
 
Sparsebeard said:
Everybody is talking about how the Boyar Kalashnikov might be a vampire or a Chaos Champion, but the worst scenario might be if he's the prophetised Evil Ice Mage presently rerouting the Waystones to the Fire Spire.

It would be ironic if the was a big nefarious ritual ongoing with the waystones, just not in the forest.
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If that is the case I am sure the Ice witches can handle it... also why would Athel Loren, and particularly the most isolationist fey of that realm care if he was about to bring about the end of Kislev?
 
UponALotusBlosom said:
Honestly it does nothing to protect against any sort of stab with a sharp implement arguably much more likely and also more lethal than a slash at a gambeson. Maybe they did exist because fuck what do I know sitting cushy in my office chair but from that office chair the jack and chains doesn't really seem too effective as a sort of armor. Useless against projectiles, only good against slashing attacks on certain facings, does nothing to prevent being stabbed center mass which is again far more dangerous than a slash along the extremities and about as useful against blunt weapons as it is against stabbing ones.
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I'd never heard of them before.
Not very effective as armor i think, but if you can cheaply add one to a gambeson, then why not, does not weigh much and might save you an arm.
 
This isn't relevant to Mathilde's knowledge because it's all meta, but if the thread insists on speculating on meta reasons as to why Drycha might be here, let me provide you with evidence of what Drycha's been doing for centuries. This is all from Wood Elves 8th Edition Army Book:

"In this year, Drycha, Handmaiden of Coeddil, gathered to her a great warweald of forest spirits, and rampaged through southern Bretonnia. After defeating the Duke of Carcassonne at the crossings of the Brienne, she assailed the walls of La Chald Abbey. By the time Bretonnian reinforcements arrived, the abbey had been tom down and its relics stolen." Page 28

"Drycha's handmaidens attacked the Shrine of Taal in the Reikwald. Though the vengeful Branchwraith struck without warning a wily huntsman slipped through the carnage and managed to bring word to Altdorf before dying of his wounds. Reinforcements were quickly despatched, but were ambushed by Dryads and Treemen on the Altdorf-Weismund road. By the time the battered army finally broke through, the shrine had been levelled, its defenders slain and the holiest relic — the Fang of Taalroth — had been stolen. Of Drycha and her handmaidens, there was no sign." Page 32

"After a seemingly senseless campaign of slaughter in the lands surrounding Parravon, Drycha finally acquired the last relic she had been searching for. Stealing into Athel Loren during the height of winter, the Branchwraith unleashed the power of her stolen artefacts, and shattered the wards Ariel had placed to bind Coeddil into the Wildwood. Alerted too late, Rangers of the Wildwood rushed to Coeddils prison, only to find the Elder gone." Page 33

These three relics are acquired over the course of 500 years, so Drycha's been busy for a long time going from forest to forest across the Old World and maybe beyond to acquire relics so she can break Coeddil's chains. For all we know Boyar Kalashnikov holds some sort of relic that would be useful to Drycha, which is why she wants to trap him.
 
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Codex said:
This isn't relevant to Mathilde's knowledge because it's all meta, but if the thread insists on speculating on meta reasons as to why Drycha might be here, let me provide you with evidence of what Drycha's been doing for centuries. This is all from Wood Elves 8th Edition Army Book:

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I feel like it's a bit too much information, no? I just read that and I kind of wish I didn't now, lol.

Are you sure that's the kind of lore that should be posted in the thread BEFORE we end this arc. It's one thing to speculate, but somehow this feels like if players would open up the monster manual during an encounter during a tabletop game. The line is hard to draw, but this seems a bit too much... or maybe not, hell if I know.
 
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Sparsebeard said:
I feel like it's a bit too much information, no? I just read that and I kind of wish I didn't now, lol.

Are you sure that's the kind of lore that should be posted in the thread BEFORE we end this arc. It's one thing to speculate, but somehow this feels like if players would open up the monster manual during an encounter during a tabletop game. The line is hard to draw, but this seems a bit too much.
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I mean does it change anything? We know Drycha can run around the world for selfish reasons and kill anyone in her way, but we already knew that because she among the evilest lords in the wood elf roster.

Moreover just because she can be looking for that does not mean that is what she is in fact here for, it is a guess informed by some canon, but still a guess.
 
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I don't think we have the sort of detailed control of Mathilde's actions where knowing the figurative monster manual really matters. Thread votes for broad strokes strategy, but Mathilde will do what makes sense for her.

As exemplified by her going mano e mano with a demon during the Vlag battle when the thread put her on dispell duty.
 
Boney said:
I hadn't, and it's interesting. I'm a little suspicious that apart from a single painting it seems that most of the sources attesting to how super common and effective they were are ones that can sell you a reproduction of them, but I suppose it wouldn't be that surprising for historical sources to have ignored cheap but effective armour for the lower classes in favour of the flashy and expensive stuff worn by nobles. It also seems like it might be related to splint armour.
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Jackchains/jack and chains was definitely a real form of armour. You can see it in a number of places in medieval art.
The Reliquary of St. Ursula, 1489



Effigy of Margrave Rudolph IV, 1346


St. Vincent Panels, 1450

Now, you're correct we don't know how common or effective they were, but it seems likely to me that they were effective for their cost, even if naturally, fullplate would be better. Perhaps the sort of thing you'd armour a squire with, or that common soldiers might buy out of their own pocket. If that's the case it would make sense for to not be super common, as most soldiers of the period were either proper professionals, or militia/levies who wouldn't have the time, money or inclination to purchase armour.
 
Sparsebeard said:
I feel like it's a bit too much information, no? I just read that and I kind of wish I didn't now, lol.

Are you sure that's the kind of lore that should be posted in the thread BEFORE we end this arc. It's one thing to speculate, but somehow this feels like if players would open up the monster manual during an encounter during a tabletop game. The line is hard to draw, but this seems a bit too much... or maybe not, hell if I know.
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It really doesn't matter. As other people said, we don't have the level of control over Mathilde where knowing Drycha's motivations somehow matters to us.

Just like you can know the exact details of a Beholder because you DMed before doesn't mean that you suddenly can't resist metagaming if your DM is going to be throwing a Beholder at you. The nature of quests makes avoiding metagaming even harder. If the thread is going to run around in circles I might as well provide information to stop them from being confused. If anybody tries to metagame, I try my best to call it out. Avoiding it isn't solving anything.
 
Codex said:
It really doesn't matter. As other people said, we don't have the level of control over Mathilde where knowing Drycha's motivations somehow matters to us.

Just like you can know the exact details of a Beholder because you DMed before doesn't mean that you suddenly can't resist metagaming if your DM is going to be throwing a Beholder at you. The nature of quests makes avoiding metagaming even harder. If the thread is going to run around in circles I might as well provide information to stop them from being confused. If anybody tries to metagame, I try my best to call it out. Avoiding it isn't solving anything.
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I mean, to keep the analogy. If I encontered a beholder and there where players around the table who didn't know, not metagaming might be hard but I wouldn't tell the other players who don't know about specific rays and whatnot.

Now, it's not like you spoilled the specific abilities of Drycha but I feel like there are probably a limited percentage of the questers with encyclopedic warhammer knowledge or the motivation to read the actual books. If the few questers who know more don't share specific info from the books, most in the thread will at most go to the wiki and look up Drycha.

And it's not like the info isn't interresting, I just think it might have been more appropriate later. Having the quotes just hits different that just a line in the wiki explaining what she did. Especially since while Mathilde could probably have read past records of Drycha's actions, nobody could know she wanted to free some treeman.

I mean, ultimately, we cannot control others so it's hard to prevent metagaming knowledge to appear in a thread on the internet, as evidenced by random people calling for Horstmann's death once in a while. But people still can decide whether or not to share specific info. If anything, take it as a compliment that you are amongst the people who have a significant impact on the information availlable to the thread.

Anyway, I'm sorry about all that rambling and to be fair, it's no big deal either way. Take it more as musings than any kind of complaints.
 
Mathilde with 4th wall breaking metaknowledge but no warhammer knowledge:
The plot is in that way. I'm the hero, and they are the villains. I should put a stop to that, like Dr Bees!

Mathilde with access to the Warhammer Wiki:
Drycha is doing this bad thing. I'm here, and I can help.

Mathildle with Introspective superpowers:
I'm nosy, and curious, and I have a sword that hits like a cannon. And my reputation demands that I massively overdeliver. I seem to be collecting Patriarchs I've said "And I took care of it" to... maybe I should go on more adventures... hmm... Feldmann, Gormann, von Draken and Stossel left... hmm. I might be onto something.

Mathilde with her current knowledge
Wood elves are killing people in Bretonnia and Kislev, and that is hurts the Empire by weakening it's allies. It's my job to be nosy about this kind of thing.

Either way, Mathilde's decision would be the same.
 
Codex said:
These three relics are acquired over the course of 500 years, so Drycha's been busy for a long time going from forest to forest across the Old World and maybe beyond to acquire relics so she can break Coeddil's chains. For all we know Boyar Kalashnikov holds some sort of relic that would be useful to Drycha, which is why she wants to trap him.
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... That Ice Glaive Boris has is... something.
 
Regarding the armor. Iron in the Middle Ages was mined by very inefficient methods. To collect metal for a small knife required almost a month's work for one person in the early Middle Ages. Therefore, in order to buy a chain mail, helmet, spear and camping supplies for a knight, as well as a certain number of servants, it was necessary to spend the income of a village with a population of 100 - 150 people for five to six years. In the absence of wars, epidemics and crop failures. Depending on the region (less in the regions of western Europe warmed by warm currents, more in the east with a sharply continental climate). In such conditions, armor made of fabric (produced for their own needs by many farms, and therefore cheap) was a reasonable alternative. One hundred people, ten of whom will be in metal armor, and the rest in gambesons, will defeat twenty metal-protected warriors. For the same money. However, the gambeson did not protect against powerful blows (which are most often applied from above or from the side), so inserting metal plates was a good idea. Although it should be noted that these plates eventually evolved into plate armor, and at first served as reinforcement for the gambison or brigantine. Excuse me for the mistakes I write through an auto-translator. It is also possible that some historical terms have different meanings with the same spelling and sounds due to borrowing the names of equipment (as a result of the adoption of equipment from other regions of the world)
 
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