K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Isn't that the worst possible way of interpreting us giving them a gift? Surely we can present the situation as not to offend them? (They seem a bit easy to offend, tbh)
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I mean yeah it is uncharitable but it is not incorrect, we did come up with this in a matter of days, if @Boney says they will not take the help then that is on them. People in character are allowed to be prideful and foolish, the setting would look much different if that was never a consideration.It's a pitty they are like that, but we can't force them to take help. I'll just drop the notion
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Its the political way to interpret the gift. Its definitely a snub from a busybody that is from institution that doesn't exist for even eight of the time that Ice Witches stand as bastion in Kislev.
Its definitely immensely patronizing, which si rich coming from a citizen of Empire that, as that one Ice Witch put it, doesn't even really control the land within its borders.
There is a difference between giving a gift to a friend or affiliate, but they really are total strangers and they have their own ways of dealing with shit.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
People are so frustrating
(The ice witches I mean)
(The ice witches I mean)
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
I mean. How do you think you would take it if you were going on about job you were doing for a decade, was pretty great at and proud of doing, and then some newbie who literally came in an hour ago and didn't even complete the tour of offices yet sat next to you and started telling you all the ways you are doing it wrong.
Because thats effectively what this amounts to.
Is the job preserving the world from eldritch horrors? If so I'd say swallowing your pride is the sensible and the moral idea, alas people in Warhammer are only sensible about about one out of ten times.
The Ice Witches have a proven track record against said horrors. The Colleges have, in living memory damned near burned down their own city.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of the proposal or the uses it could be put unless you want to argue that belts of shadowsteed almost burned down Aldorf.
Can we just admit that other people can for reasons that seem good to them be foolish? I mean hell the only reason the Empire and Kislev even exist at all is that the elves and dwarfs beside which both are as mayflies were really, really foolish once upon a time.
- Location
- Finland
Yes, people can be foolish, and expecting people with a proven track record to not be insulted when someone without such a record marches in and starts telling them they are doing things wrong is foolish.
- Location
- Utrecht
I mean Liliana didn't even bother to take the dragon when wrecking the kul encampment.
That says a lot about how willing they are to ask for help.
Although the response might be similar to the "didn't want a dog" meme:
Picture left: angry babushka glaring at enchanted saddle.
Picture right: happy babushka riding shadow horse
That says a lot about how willing they are to ask for help.
Although the response might be similar to the "didn't want a dog" meme:
Picture left: angry babushka glaring at enchanted saddle.
Picture right: happy babushka riding shadow horse
Even if the Ice Witches are able to put aside their egos and prioritize efficiency over appearances, they still have to operate in a world of people who care very much about appearances. Their authority and legitimacy comes from almost a thousand years of being the practitioners of the art founded by Khan-Queen Miska, founder of Kislev. Riding around on a bunch of very clearly foreign magical horses whipped up by a bunch of johnny-come-latelies a fifth their age would erode their influence within Kislev, and currently that's influence they really can't afford to lose. It would also prickle Kislevite egos, who are already touchy about being the poorer and less developed neighbour of the Empire.
- Location
- Finland
Well clearly the right thing to do is to give them some shadow horses anyway and wait for the whole world to realize how silly they are and how brilliant we are in comparison. 
Or we could accept that people are not perfect logic machines working in maximally optimal manner.
Or we could accept that people are not perfect logic machines working in maximally optimal manner.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think it should be noted that Ice Witches are Gospodar. Their tribe came from the Steppes as horse riders, and Khan Queen Mishka almost certainly rode a horse who was probably ridiculously fast. They have a tradition of horse riding. If all the Ice Withces in Kislev City never got or learnt speedy horse riding then it's because they chose not to or they couldn't for one reason or another. They have the resources.
Reminds me of Soizic not having a horse despite being perfectly capable of getting one.
Reminds me of Soizic not having a horse despite being perfectly capable of getting one.
And isn't Kislev proud of their horses in particular? It's taking something they are proud of doing well and saying that this magic item does it better. Imagine some foreigner offering the Karaz Ankor some sort of magical fabricator, or offering the Cult of Taal a magical GPS for navigating forests, or offering Stirland a magical beer warmer.
- Location
- Finland
Maybe ice magic makes its practitioners allergic to horses.
edit-
We've spent how long with dwarves now, in quest and out?
It really should not come as a surprise to anyone at this point that people are not going to change their ways to be more convenient to us, or themselves, just because we want them to, no matter how optimal we think it would be.
edit-
We've spent how long with dwarves now, in quest and out?
It really should not come as a surprise to anyone at this point that people are not going to change their ways to be more convenient to us, or themselves, just because we want them to, no matter how optimal we think it would be.
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pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Despite all the skirmishing Empire does with dark forces, they are not the ones that stand at the border beyond which Realm of Chaos encroaches upon mortal world. The fact that Kislev stands shows they know what the fuck they are doing
Someone that has been on a single trip to Chaos wastes shouldn't talk shit.Might be that the unnatural cold from the more marked ones scares them, or that ice magic fits better with slower movement to make time for picking up strenght. Or maybe Babushka powerwalk isn't locked only into widowmode and is something any sufficiently motivated Ice Witch can do? Who knows? Not us, because we spent like less than two months in Kislev, and maybe one day observing ice witches in action.Maybe ice magic makes its practitioners allergic to horses.
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Biker babushkas on dwarven motorcycles. You're welcome.Maybe ice magic makes its practitioners allergic to horses.
- Location
- South Africa
I was never countering that, but the thought that we might need to provide more mobility as compensation.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
In general, Kislev and Bretonnia have the most exceptional horses in the Old World. Bretonnians are excellent for having been crossbred with Elven Steeds long ago, and they are exceptionally muscular. They're the only horses who don't slow down at all despite being fully barded (no movement penalties from barding in the tabletop). At least for their chargers. It makes their Knightly Charges much more devastating because their horses are ripped as hell.
Kislev is the opposite. They have tough horses with great endurance or horses that are really, really fast depending on what their purpose is. Ungol Horse Archers want speed so they can strafe the enemy and kite them. Winged Lancers want endurance so they can keep charging. Both horses are exceptional, and it's demonstrated by their horses being faster and their cavalry stronger than the Empire's in Total Warhammer.
Another fun fact, Ostermark and Averland are the premier horse breeders in the Empire. Ostermark breed horses in the Veldt, and their traditions there cross over heavily with Kislev because the border used to be pretty flexible between the nations. Ostermarker horses are quite excellent and share a lot of similarities with Kislevite horse breeds.
Averlander horses are bred in the southern plains of Averland. Less is known about them, but the Brigundians, the pre-imperial ancestors of the Averlanders, were famous for their chariots, so good horses were a given.
I would say something about Arabyan horses here if I had anything to say aside from vaguely remembering something about them. I know there's a special Pegasus called the Radiant Pegasi who absorb sunlight and redirect it, and I imagine they probably have good horses, but you know. Araby.
To put how important appearances are to the people of the Warhammer world into context.
The RPG has a system called status,
brass 0 (begger and flagulent) to gold 6 (Noble Lord is the only one at this level) and it has a system that if you don't spend enough money every season (6 gold for the lord, your not expect to pay shit for the begger) on your life style, you start dropping in status as you seen has not keeping your appearance up to your station.
And if you fall to much there can be consequences like the electer count giving your titles and land to someone else that's not such an embarrassment.
But on the other hand if you spend on average way to much for your status, you get problems from the other end: a Silver 1 merchant throwing around gold 3 levels of money will be seen as someone with 'assumptions' by other silver characters and might have a gang of scoins knocking on his door to remind him of his 'place'.
As a grey wizard Mathy has always been a bit to the side of this culture. But everyone else is very much expected and pressured to conform.
(If your wondering, Lord wizard is Gold 1)
The RPG has a system called status,
brass 0 (begger and flagulent) to gold 6 (Noble Lord is the only one at this level) and it has a system that if you don't spend enough money every season (6 gold for the lord, your not expect to pay shit for the begger) on your life style, you start dropping in status as you seen has not keeping your appearance up to your station.
And if you fall to much there can be consequences like the electer count giving your titles and land to someone else that's not such an embarrassment.
But on the other hand if you spend on average way to much for your status, you get problems from the other end: a Silver 1 merchant throwing around gold 3 levels of money will be seen as someone with 'assumptions' by other silver characters and might have a gang of scoins knocking on his door to remind him of his 'place'.
As a grey wizard Mathy has always been a bit to the side of this culture. But everyone else is very much expected and pressured to conform.
(If your wondering, Lord wizard is Gold 1)
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consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
We're just not overcomplicating things enough. Add an illusion to the item, so it appears to be generating an ice horse for cranky grandma to ride. Provide one as a gift of gratitude to each babushka that deigns to assist the poor blind Imperyni with their ineptitude so that they can come down and scold us for our failures more efficiently, seeing as we are lacking in strong strapping steppes lads to properly convey them. And so on.
If they leave the thing to gather dust otherwise, or quietly use it all the time, that's hardly any business of ours.
If they leave the thing to gather dust otherwise, or quietly use it all the time, that's hardly any business of ours.
I just realized I forgot to vote.
[X] Bring in Ice Witches
[X] Find the Boyar
[X] Bring in Ice Witches
[X] Find the Boyar
- Location
- Finland
Please, do not assume npc's are idiots.
Because from the stand point of someone who would be insulted by a shadow horse gift, this reads like an insult with extra snide added on top.
You know, even disregarding Boney's words, I still think we're barking up the wrong tree here.
If this lack of ability to rapidly relocate certain forces was an existential threat to them, Kislevites would have solved it with some jank bullshit or already perished, central authority be damned. Because that really does seem to be How They Do.
Perhaps we should ask questions more and make less statements and offers. If there's no good answer to those questions, I trust that our allies, backwards as they may be, will fix their own shit. Because no one else can or will, frankly.
If this lack of ability to rapidly relocate certain forces was an existential threat to them, Kislevites would have solved it with some jank bullshit or already perished, central authority be damned. Because that really does seem to be How They Do.
Perhaps we should ask questions more and make less statements and offers. If there's no good answer to those questions, I trust that our allies, backwards as they may be, will fix their own shit. Because no one else can or will, frankly.