Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Honestly the real problem here is the idea that the Ice Witches should have any such problem to begin with. This is not rocket science or battle magic, all you need to do is have stations with remounts around the country, that way you can swap horses when needed and maintain maximum speed. That's how messengers got around in the Mongol Empire, and the system was preserved by Tsarist Russia so it is fully on theme.

EDIT: For those who are curious, the Mongols could apparently achieve something between 120 to 190 miles, so if kislevite horses can consistently reach the upper edge of that (not a big ask with likely magical horse bloodlines I think) then you can go anywhere in Kislev in just a few days.
 
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You know, even disregarding Boney's words, I still think we're barking up the wrong tree here.

If this lack of ability to rapidly relocate certain forces was an existential threat to them, Kislevites would have solved it with some jank bullshit or already perished, central authority be damned. Because that really does seem to be How They Do.

Perhaps we should ask questions more and make less statements and offers. If there's no good answer to those questions, I trust that our allies, backwards as they may be, will fix their own shit. Because no one else can or will, frankly.

I mean it is entirety possible for one paradigm of magic to have answers that another does not, this is not perfectly balanced Video Game land. When the dwarfs gave the colleges Rooms of Calamity, the provided a very useful addition to the latter's resources, that does not mean the colleges were all fools, it just means they did not have as effective a way of grounding magic.
 
I mean it is entirety possible for one paradigm of magic to have answers that another does not, this is not perfectly balanced Video Game land. When the dwarfs gave the colleges Rooms of Calamity, the provided a very useful addition to the latter's resources, that does not mean the colleges were all fools, it just means they did not have as effective a way of grounding magic.
They have horses.
If rapid deployment of ice witches was somekind of major issue instead of weird edge case we stumbled upon, they would just have more ice witches who know how to ride or something.
 
They have horses.
If rapid deployment of ice witches was somekind of major issue instead of weird edge case we stumbled upon, they would just have more ice witches who know how to ride or something.
Rapid deployment of anything that is limited in supply is always a strategic issue. Slow deployment is literally never preferable. Which is why it makes no sense that they can't ride. Given how cavalry heavy kislevite armies are and all, not being able to ride is kind of a massive, blatant liability in the battlefield too.
 
Rapid deployment of anything that is limited in supply is always a strategic issue. Slow deployment is literally never preferable. Which is why it makes no sense that they can't ride. Given how cavalry heavy kislevite armies are and all, not being able to ride is kind of a massive, blatant liability in the battlefield too.

I do not think it is that they can't ride, they can probably ride fine, it's just that they can't ride as fast as the born to the saddle horsemen, because riding is not a primary skill for them, ice magic is.
 
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Even if the Ice Witches are able to put aside their egos and prioritize efficiency over appearances, they still have to operate in a world of people who care very much about appearances. Their authority and legitimacy comes from almost a thousand years of being the practitioners of the art founded by Khan-Queen Miska, founder of Kislev. Riding around on a bunch of very clearly foreign magical horses whipped up by a bunch of johnny-come-latelies a fifth their age would erode their influence within Kislev, and currently that's influence they really can't afford to lose. It would also prickle Kislevite egos, who are already touchy about being the poorer and less developed neighbour of the Empire.
Huh, in light of all that, should we not be voting to grab them?

I'm assuming all the same issues of appearances still apply if the wizard is with them instead of just providing saddles?
 
Huh, in light of all that, should we not be voting to grab them?

I'm assuming all the same issues of appearances still apply if the wizard is with them instead of just providing saddles?

Individual actions in response to immediate circumstances are not subject to as much scrutiny as organization-wide doctrines.

i do not think it is that they can't ride, they can probably ride fine, it's just that they can't ride as fast as the born to the saddle horsemen, because riding is not a primary skill for them, ice magic is.

Yeah, it cannot be stressed enough how absolutely bonkers the strategic mobility of Kislev's cavalry is. Ice Witches not being able to keep up with that isn't some bizarre and inexplicable weakness, it's just them not dedicating a significant fraction of their entire life to being the best horse riders on the continent.
 
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Rapid deployment of anything that is limited in supply is always a strategic issue. Slow deployment is literally never preferable. Which is why it makes no sense that they can't ride. Given how cavalry heavy kislevite armies are and all, not being able to ride is kind of a massive, blatant liability in the battlefield too.
Clearly we should strap all cannons into ornithopters because anything slower is an existential risk and that people have not done so makes them idiots.
/s

I said major issue, not strategic, very important difference.
Again, let us not assume everyone is a moron for doing what we want them to.
Clearly the ice witches have their reasons, those reasons may be good or bad, but we don't know them, and trying to tell them how to do their jobs is never going to not be insulting.
 
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Rapid deployment of anything that is limited in supply is always a strategic issue. Slow deployment is literally never preferable. Which is why it makes no sense that they can't ride. Given how cavalry heavy kislevite armies are and all, not being able to ride is kind of a massive, blatant liability in the battlefield too.
Mathilde is the fastest rider in the Old World and when chips went down, it was Lliljana, the on foot old lady, that literally punched a chaos champion into shit. Stop thinking about how to better people whose situation we know nothing about except that they won't appreciate our meddling.
 
@Boney I'd like you to know that as I was reading Age of Sigmar lore (specifically Grand Alliance: Chaos the Pestilens section), there was a lore tidbit that I couldn't help but immediately connect to the quest. Apparently, when Skaven clans who are all in the same place start to compete too much, they split off to make their own way, but whenever a clan breaks off from a greater collective, two other clans always join. Three is always the number of clans that make their way out of Blight City (AoS' Skavenblight). It's said that nobody knows why three is the number and why they keep following that pattern, but I know:
"Three is peace," Qrech said, as if that explained everything, turning over the wooden figure in his claws.
I was pleasantly surprised to see Three is Peace making its way into AoS.
 
@Boney I'd like you to know that as I was reading Age of Sigmar lore (specifically Grand Alliance: Chaos the Pestilens section), there was a lore tidbit that I couldn't help but immediately connect to the quest. Apparently, when Skaven clans who are all in the same place start to compete too much, they split off to make their own way, but whenever a clan breaks off from a greater collective, two other clans always join. Three is always the number of clans that make their way out of Blight City (AoS' Skavenblight). It's said that nobody knows why three is the number and why they keep following that pattern, but I know:

I was pleasantly surprised to see Three is Peace making its way into AoS.

I think that somewhere in canon it explicitly says that three being a stable deadlock is a recognized and utilized part of Skaven society and the whole numerology was built on that foundation, but I have no idea where it might be.
 
I believe it came from a scene of the Council of 13 gathering. A quick thread search gives this post from Garlak:
So, funny thing. One of the few things I remember from briefly reading the beginning/prologue parts of one of the End Times books, was a little scene for the Skaven. (I don't know if this idea originated in the End Times books, or if this was an established idea for Skaven already and the writer just made use of it in the book and this just happened to be the first time I personally stumbled acros it.) It was the Council of 13 gathering, and... one part of it that stuck with me and which I thought was kind of cool and very Skaven, was this:

The scene talks about how the Skaven head for the meeting, and it says that Skaven would gather in 1s and 3s, because any other number results in Skaven backstabbing!

'With 1 Skaven, you obviously can't backstab yourself.'
'With 2 Skaven, they're going to scheme against each other and its hopeless.'
'But with 3? No 2 Skaven would be able to trust each other not to backstab each other long enough to backstab the third.'

I thought it was cool because it worked with Skaven numerology; making 13 and 1 and 3 be important numbers to their culture. (I don't remember if it said anything about Skaven grouping together in 4s or 5s -- it's possible that, this being a gathering of 13, they also placed greater importance upon 1 and 3. Or because other Skaven would be too distrustful of anybody that arrived in such a big group as 4 or 5 or 6 people; it would be a threat to them. And so, to satisfy their own distrust and paranoia, and to make it possible to gather without spooking every other member, they had to do it in lesser numbers than going in with like 7 and 6 Skaven.)

It's possible that they also might have distrusted groups of 2 Skaven coming to the council, not because they'd stab each other before they got there... but because it was possible for 2 Skaven to not mess with each other -- and that such a détente or peace treaty would not be liked by any of the other gathered members. Also, if you came with your buddy, it's a blatant tipoff isn't it? Everybody now knows you've got somebody you trust enough to travel with, and knows who it is. 1 and 3 provide plausible deniability, security, and a balance of treachery.

It's amazing. You'd think 3 would be the number at which 2 Skaven would scheme against the 3rd, and dead they go. But no. 3 is the point at which, because they are expecting everybody to cross and double-cross and triple-cross, they arrive at a Mexican Standoff of treachery.

3 is the number at which Skaven Chronic Backstabbing Disorder would Three Stooges Syndrome itself!

And I remembered it because, heck, that was really cool right? And for how amusing it was. And because it presented a story for why the Skaven would value 1s and 3s.


So your post where you analyzed why Skryre and Eshin suddenly backed off a lot, and concluded that it might be because 3 could 'trust' each other enough to be able to prioritize Mors, but with 2 the balance of quantum-treachery breaks down?

Yeah. Yeah, totally valid. Not just valid in fact, but pretty damn good convergent evolution of ideas -- you've just stumbled upon and described some Skaven cultural numerology/psychology.
 
I believe it came from a scene of the Council of 13 gathering. A quick thread search gives this post from Garlak:
Hey, I covered that scene in my End Times thread. I think this is the scene Garlak was referencing:
The Council of Thirteen sat in oppressive silence. The chamber lay deep under the Great Temple of the Horned Rat, but was so imbued with entropic energies that it might as well have existed in a different realm. It was dark, lit only by a sickly green glow from the censers, and empty, save for a thirteen-sided pillar and a stone table. Both had runes scratched into them that pained the eyes to look upon.

Around the table sat the twelve rulers of the Under-Empire: the thirteenth throne was empty, the symbolic seat saved for the great Horned Rat. All was still, yet the air was filled with agitation.

In the restless hush, a tail twitched. The hitching rasp of fluid-filled lungs identified the presence of Arch Plague Lord Nurglitch, who sat upon the seat-that-is-tenth, a simple throne of bone. Long had he awaited this hour. He savoured the strained silence, marking the passage of time by the whirr of cogs and the hiss-vent of steam from the rebreathing apparatus of Warlord Vrisk.

Seer Lord Kritislik, who sat in the coveted first seat, broke the suffocating quiet to address the Lords of Decay. Kritislik's thin voice crackled with rage while the air surrounding him shimmered with undisguised power.

'I am displeased, yes-yes. Lord Morskittar, I gift-granted no leave to trade devices with lesser clans. Why was this claw-pact broken with Clan Mors?'

For a long moment, the most ancient of grey seers looked over his council members, his beady eyes examining each in turn. Lord Nurglitch fought down the urge to shift, willing his rheumy, pus-filled eyes not to blink unnaturally.

Lord Morskittar, the Most Exalted Warlock and Master of Clan Skryre, shifted slightly, his telescopic eyes whirring as he fixed his attention upon the horned seer. Lord Nurglitch knew, as did all the other council members, that Kritislik regularly banned the trade-sale of weapons to clans that did not do the grey seer's bidding. Although Clan Skryre had sold their wares to a few of the banned clans, the general lack of advanced weaponry had made the invasion of Tilea much more costly for the Skaven. Without warpfire throwers or gas grenades to exterminate pockets of resistance, many defenders had to be slain by tooth or spear.

When Lord Morskittar finally answered Lord Kritislik, he did so in a metallic voice that echoed in that vast chamber. 'We have many-many machines for trade. Clans Mors offered the most warptokens. Why should I not deal with Lord Gnawdwell? Why-why do I care if you think he has grown too powerful?'

The bulbous mounded lump of muscle and sinew that was Lord Verminkin, the ultimate commander of Clan Moulder, nodded several of his heads in agreement.

For a moment, sibilant splutters escaped Kritislik, making Nurglitch's tail spasm in wicked delight. Airing private conversations amongst the Council was a common way to undermine others; indeed it was Kritislik's favoured tactic. This time, thought Nurglitch, the roles were reversed. It was the grey seer's authority that was now being belittled.

It was Lord Sneek who next broke the ominous silence. Nurglitch, and all the others, turned their eyes to the shadow that was the ruler of Clan Eshin. Even when the censers' light pulsed brightest, he remained obscured – not for nothing was he named the Grand Nightlord. 'Seer Lord Kritislik, I have withdrawn Deathmaster Snikch from his targets and informed Doomclaw of your doublecross,' said Lord Sneek in his whisper-like voice. This was followed by a heavy thud as Kratch Doomclaw slammed the vast apparatus that had replaced his left arm onto the table. He was the Lord of Crookback Peak, Supreme Warlord of Clan Rictus, and he bared his yellowed fangs at Kritislik in a challenge display. Again, Nurglitch's tail quivered, for this sign was universally understood amongst skaven, from thelowliest slave upwards. It was the posture a common clanrat struck before openly fighting for rank.

Kritislik was incredulous, his curved horns glowing with a nimbus of power. 'You dare? I speak in the name of the great Horned Rat. I alone am…'

But before he could finish, his words turned to a screech, a wail of purest pain, as his body convulsed. Dark vapour issued from his distended jaws – a growing plume of blackness. The Great Pillar flashed and from the cloud's midst black lightning arced forth. Convulsing inwardly upon himself, Kritislik was reduced to a skeletal form in an instant, then burst into ash.

Nurglitch was shocked, and the startled looks upon the other council members told him he was not alone.

As the last flakes of the grey seer drifted downwards, the black cloud coalesced over the symbolic head of the council table. Beacon-like eyes blazed from out of the darkness. This was too much for Lord Nurglitch, who fell to the floor alongside the other Lords of Decay, prostrating himself in awe and terror.

The Horned Rat had come.

As he writhed upon the floor, unbidden knowledge filled Lord Nurglitch's head. In his mind, the Plague Lord saw visions of the malevolent Shadow-moon: swollen and huge it had grown. Then came the voice. It spoke in a discordant roar that was both a scratchy whisper and the screeching of a million million rats. Lord Nurglitch knew and understood. The great Horned Rat was displeased, no longer amused by his children's squabbles. A new Seer Lord would touch the pillar and join their council. He would rightfully speak in the Horned Rat's voice.

Before departing, the Horned Rat spoke aloud a single prophecy that threatened to rip apart the very fabric of reality:

'Children, We Shall Inherit!'
There isn't anything about ones and threes in there? I know that the Council arranges itself in a structure where the 12th seat faces the 1st seat, and the 2nd seat faces the 11th seat and so on, and that plays into their political machinations, but three is peace doesn't really factor into it.
 
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Might be that the unnatural cold from the more marked ones scares them, or that ice magic fits better with slower movement to make time for picking up strenght. Or maybe Babushka powerwalk isn't locked only into widowmode and is something any sufficiently motivated Ice Witch can do? Who knows? Not us, because we spent like less than two months in Kislev, and maybe one day observing ice witches in action
Carriages and other horse drawn vehicles could work and they certainly have access to those.

I'm fairly sure its a deliberate choice of image...and really its not that often that you need high speed Ice Witch deliveries. The only things going that fast are fast reaction forces and scouts, neither of which normally have elite spellcasters on hand.

If they are rumbling with a full army they walk faster than infantry blocks, and if defending a location they don't need strategic mobility.
 
Katarin had a sleigh she'd ride to battle sometimes (pulled by what are either horse-constructs made of ice or actual horses, I've seen some debate).

It's more in-line with the thematics.

(Also think it's worth pointing out, Ice Witches are not all old grannies. Of the 4 we've met, only one is. Hag Witches are the ones who are all old grannies)
 
By the way, I've come across this panel from the Total War subreddit, extracted from 1st Edition WFRP for a book made in 1986:
Surprisingly progressive for 1986, if you discount the fact that it's a bunch of Chaos Cultists referring to the Chaos God of Hedonism and Depravity. I'm probably not going to switch exclusively to shem for Slaanesh, but the pronouns are interesting enough for me to give them a try as part of my repertoire.

I also think it's funny since it makes "Shem's Burning Gaze" awkward.
 
(Also think it's worth pointing out, Ice Witches are not all old grannies. Of the 4 we've met, only one is. Hag Witches are the ones who are all old grannies)
I have considered what you said and i have elected to ignore it. :V
I'm fairly sure its a deliberate choice of image...and really its not that often that you need high speed Ice Witch deliveries. The only things going that fast are fast reaction forces and scouts, neither of which normally have elite spellcasters on hand.

If they are rumbling with a full army they walk faster than infantry blocks, and if defending a location they don't need strategic mobility.
Pretty much yeah... and when they do need it, its most likely important enough that Ancient Widow lets them do the powerwalk thingy that let Lliljana be faster than us despite still only seemingly walking at a normal pace.
 
So... Are there other people in thread who have experience with horses? Because we had a pair of Arabians boarded at our farm for years and a few riding horses of our own, and the main conclusion I drew from this is that horses are fragile, prone to random freakouts, flighty, and sneaky. I've got a vet friend who swears they are the only creatures she knows who can scare themselves dead for no reason.

I'm very much not suprised that horses and magic do not mix.

Is the job preserving the world from eldritch horrors? If so I'd say swallowing your pride is the sensible and the moral idea, alas people in Warhammer are only sensible about about one out of ten times.

"I know better than you how to do this" is the claim you are going to have trouble with. Not only "who the hell do you think you are?" Aspect of it vut also "Huh. Looks too good to be true, good chance this is Tzeech fucking with us, better safe than sorry".
 
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So... Are there other people in thread who have experience with horses? Because we had a pair of Arabians boarded at our farm for years and a few riding horses of our own, and the main conclusion I drew from this is that horses are fragile, prone to random freakouts, flighty, and sneaky. I've got a vet friend who swears they are the only creatures she knows who can scare themselves dead for no reason.

I'm very much not suprised that horses and magic do both mix.
You had a pair of Arabians boarded at your home? What kind of stuff do you get into :V

No, but seriously, it depends on the horse. It's specified in Warhammer (I don't know much about reality) that there are the scared and flighty regular horses, draft and work horses and riding horses, and then there are the more trained and experienced Destriers and Chargers who don't panic nearly as easily. I assume the horses Kislevites bring into war aren't likely to break at the scent of blood and should be somewhat braver.
 
I think that somewhere in canon it explicitly says that three being a stable deadlock is a recognized and utilized part of Skaven society and the whole numerology was built on that foundation, but I have no idea where it might be.
Its the lore on why Skaven assassins are trained and fight as a trio.

the moment on of them dies, its time to fight out who will be the next master assassin.

the thinking being that the three will then try to keep each other alive until at least one of them feels they are ready.
 
So... Are there other people in thread who have experience with horses? Because we had a pair of Arabians boarded at our farm for years and a few riding horses of our own, and the main conclusion I drew from this is that horses are fragile, prone to random freakouts, flighty, and sneaky. I've got a vet friend who swears they are the only creatures she knows who can scare themselves dead for no reason.

I'm very much not suprised that horses and magic do both mix.



"I know better than you how to do this" is the claim you are going to have trouble with. Not only "who the hell do you think you are?" Aspect of it vut also "Huh. Looks too good to be true, good chance this is Tzeech fucking with us, better safe than sorry".
My dad keeps horses.

He's fond of the joke "horses are only scared of 2 things- things that move, and things that don't".

But horses have been used in warfare for millennia, so I'm assuming there's some way to condition them to be less skittish.
 
"I know better than you how to do this" is the claim you are going to have trouble with. Not only "who the hell do you think you are?" Aspect of it vut also "Huh. Looks too good to be true, good chance this is Tzeech fucking with us, better safe than sorry".

Please not the Tzeench argument again, I heard way too much of it in the faith or knowledge conversation. One would think Tzeench would have something better to do than teach the elves a spell so that the elves could teach it to the Imperials, so the Imperials could give it to the Ice witches as an item... and then the horses will eat them or something. :V
 
My dad keeps horses.

He's fond of the joke "horses are only scared of 2 things- things that move, and things that don't".

But horses have been used in warfare for millennia, so I'm assuming there's some way to condition them to be less skittish.
I'm pretty sure selective breeding has something to do with it. I don't know how it works, but apparently temprament can be a genetic trait that you can attempt to cultivate. I know it's the case for dogs for example.
 
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