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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Further complicating this is the fact you have both magical and divine intervention.

Some regular guy may eat unhealthy, but because he's a devot priest of Sharliya, he may not actually be "unhealthy" because her energies would invigorate him.

Or maybe Nurgle has cast a subtle curse upon nutritious food that makes it so, it makes you more sick.

We today are struggling to understand everything about nutrition and the body, let alone a society with several difference species and godly interventions.
 
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Valmond said:
You may have noticed that dwarves are not big on writing things down.
And you can make beer out of almost anything, with loose enough definition of beer.
Otherwise, rune magic and special crops now lost to time, modern beer, is but a fallen fraction of a shadow of true dwarven libations, just like rune lore.
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They don't like to write specific things down, master craft secrets, runes (with a specific point about how no unworthy should ever be able to learn runes, which got interpreted as "no book anyone can just open and read") and such things, they reeeeeeeeeally like writing down records, see the krons.
Codex said:
They had mountainside fields. That's what they do in Karak Eight Peaks. They don't farm in the valley, just in the steep cliffs to brew barley.

It's less that I don't like talking about diets and more that I think you're really trivialising the difficulty of diet plans, especially in a setting like Warhammer of all places. Eat your meats and greens isn't going to help anybody without nutritional details like the stuff you get on boxes nowadays.

Today, it is incredibly easy to make a diet plan because you can look at the nutritional facts of everything you buy, you can do your research on the internet, and we have the technology and knowledge of all the components of food and how they affect us. Except even now we still don't know the full mental effects of many types of food as applied to different people. The idea that you believe Valaya somehow figured all of this out and created a foolproof plan to solve all of Dwarfkind's food problems is incredibly weird to me.

It seems like you're taking a very serious and difficult issue and simplifying it to "eat meats and greens it's not that hard". Truly mistifying. Even today that strategy is unwise. What kinds of meats? What kinds of greens? There are also thousands of factors affecting food, especially in the time period the story is emulating. It's as unhelpful as someone telling you to cheer up when you're feeling sad.
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If they had mountainside fields (and I assumed so, because otherwise they would have never survived) then they still probably have strains not too dissimilar if not better then then, because dwarves would keep to the same strain just out of tradition...

And we know of nutrition for about 150 years if we are generous, we didn't know shit beforehand and still could do a decent amount of work with what we had, did it always work? No, because circumstances interfere with everything.

Going, "these poor sods had no clue for 6000 years, we need to help them" is a disengenious as is saying my "eat leaves and beef" was more as a quick, and obviously wrong example that I threw out to have something more then "diet plan" but if your first instinct is to jump down the throat of people that disagree with you then good luck...
I'm finished with this discussion.
 
Tobtorp said:
Going, "these poor sods had no clue for 6000 years, we need to help them" is a disengenious as is saying my "eat leaves and beef" was more as a quick, and obviously wrong example that I threw out to have something more then "diet plan" but if your first instinct is to jump down the throat of people that disagree with you then good luck...
I'm finished with this discussion.
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It's interesting that your response to perceiving me as jumping down your throat is to put words in my mouth:
Tobtorp said:
Going, "these poor sods had no clue for 6000 years, we need to help them" is a disengenious as is saying my "eat leaves and beef" was more as a quick,
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I said we don't know and that's why Panoramia is thinking of looking into it, which is what research is supposed to do. Figure things out by testing it. I never said "we need to help them", I said Panoramia was considering a research on the topic. During the modern day we perform research papers on the same topic year after year and still discover new things. I have no idea why your response to the topic was jumping onto the idea that the Dwarves clearly have everything handled and acting like I ever said we should help the Dwarves set their diet straight.

I think you're perceiving something that isn't there in my tone, but considering the way you're speaking to me now, yes I don't think this is worth pursuing.
 
Tobtorp said:
They don't like to write specific things down, master craft secrets, runes (with a specific point about how no unworthy should ever be able to learn runes, which got interpreted as "no book anyone can just open and read") and such things, they reeeeeeeeeally like writing down records, see the krons.
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Secrets given down from the ancestor gods would definitely fall under "let's not write it down" levels.
There might be records left of what people ate, accounts of great feasts, scraps of restaurant menu's, storage manifests...
I doubt you could actual reconstruct a healthy diet out of them when we probably would not even know what many of the things listed in them were.
But in general, the idea of a divinaly appointed diet plan written down somewhere sounds unlikely, at best.
 
Valmond said:
Secrets given down from the ancestor gods would definitely fall under "let's not write it down" levels.
There might be records left of what people ate, accounts of great feasts, scraps of restaurant menu's, storage manifests...
I doubt you could actual reconstruct a healthy diet out of them when we probably would not even know what many of the things listed in them were.
But in general, the idea of a divinaly appointed diet plan written down somewhere sounds unlikely, at best.
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This part I will respond to because it pretty much has nothing to do with the other discussions, I didn't really imagine it as a secret, more of like, 101 things to keep your dwarf healthy. Similar how smeidnir has done all the smithing ground rules Valaya would have done "what do you do if your unwell, a general guide" the priesthood would have their own special secret, (the healing beer probably falls under that)
 
Tobtorp said:
This part I will respond to because it pretty much has nothing to do with the other discussions, I didn't really imagine it as a secret, more of like, 101 things to keep your dwarf healthy. Similar how smeidnir has done all the smithing ground rules Valaya would have done "what do you do if your unwell, a general guide" the priesthood would have their own special secret, (the healing beer probably falls under that)
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Sounds like knowledge you teach to your kids, not something you write down.
Because books are expensive and time consuming to make.
And therefore the type of things that are easiest to loose in a time of crisis when nobody has time for it.
Especially when we are talking about food crops that no longer exist.

Honestly i am not sure what kind of book you are imagining that would suddenly help solve the question of dwarven diet.
 
Valmond said:
Sounds like knowledge you teach to your kids, not something you write down.
Because books are expensive and time consuming to make.
And therefore the type of things that are easiest to loose in a time of crisis when nobody has time for it.
Especially when we are talking about food crops that no longer exist.

Honestly i am not sure what kind of book you are imagining that would suddenly help solve the question of dwarven diet.
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Tbh my comment about this books was only that I could see it surviving, not that it did, or that we know of it. And true, paper would have been rather difficult for the dwarfs but iirc they did make books out of metal, and stone which would survive just about anything but a cave in or a fallen hold. (and even then it depends on if it was sealed, stuff did survive in karak eight peaks)
 
Tobtorp said:
Tbh my comment about this books was only that I could see it surviving, not that it did, or that we know of it. And true, paper would have been rather difficult for the dwarfs but iirc they did make books out of metal, and stone which would survive just about anything but a cave in or a fallen hold. (and even then it depends on if it was sealed, stuff did survive in karak eight peaks)
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It's not about a book surviving, but existing in the first place.
And even if it did, it would unlikely to be helpfull because it would contain things like "eat argle bargle cooked if gobbledigook garnished with yumyum".
The specialist crops are gone, as are the specially bred herds, assuming we even know what was herded.
Like, let's assume there exist somewhere a wall fresco with divinely mandated diet pla.
So what?
We have no means to follow it.
 
Codex said:
Yes he met a hero of the humans who stood bravely atop her commander's body to save his life, making an Oathstone of Abelhelm. They were concerned about the progress of the campaign and one of the biggest hitters and most important/impactful people. I doubt they approached every human who looked like "they were on the path to slayerhood", even though I'm certain there were hundreds of them.

I think they check anyone who ever says they want to become a Slayer, but they won't jump to your aid unprompted because you look distressed. Not without a reason like they had for Mathilde.
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Every Human definitely not. And probably also not every Dwarf. IRL therapists don't manage anything close to that in their own societies either. But I expect that in their own Guild/Clan a Barazul will check in on their less endangered brethren if all the acute cases are dealt with one way or another. Dwarves often will not think to seek one themselves when that distraught and even though the traditional ritual oath itself is an involved process, a verbal one to oneself is a single sentence that can't be taken back and can happen at any time.
Valmond said:
Bugman was the Kragg of the brewers.
Greatest beer maker alive, yet a shadow of what came before.
And unlike runes, good beer generally does not last for thousands of years, so we lack even the examples of true greatness to emulate.
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I know we might be memeing but there's a limit to how good a beer can be that's much lower to the limit of how good a rune-based piece of equipment or device can be. The long lost beers might have tasted better, been more nutritious, go bad slower and give you the perfect blend of hangoverless buzz and narcotic clarity at the same time, but they would still be in the Warhammer equivalent of the physically possible and therefore not fundamentally differ from what's possible in the Quest present. Except if Brewing is the lost second art of Dwarven magic I guess.
Valmond said:
It's not about a book surviving, but existing in the first place.
And even if it did, it would unlikely to be helpfull because it would contain things like "eat argle bargle cooked if gobbledigook garnished with yumyum".
The specialist crops are gone, as are the specially bred herds, assuming we even know what was herded.
Like, let's assume there exist somewhere a wall fresco with divinely mandated diet pla.
So what?
We have no means to follow it.
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Didn't someone in this very thread post a link to a YouTube cook that tries to cook based on old recipes and gets stumped by missing context that would have been considered obvious back when the recipe was written? Or did I see that somewhere else?

If no one finds it then I'll look it up when I get home.
 
Rafin said:
The long lost beers might have tasted better, been more nutritious, go bad slower and give you the perfect blend of hangoverless buzz and narcotic clarity at the same time,
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Just as an addendum: Don't forget the honourable tradition of using it as fuel! Why in my time, we could pour one into the engine and it would breathe fire onto our foes... *grumble grumble*
 
Codex said:
Dwarfs are known to be able to survive on beer. Just beer. When they're really lean on times they grind down rocks into their bread to make Stonebread to fill out the bread and make it more filling, and they can survive on that. Their digestive system is weird.

Bardin Goreksson from Vermintide is the weirdest example of this. In the game and supplementary material, it's stated that he eats Olesya's candles, he eats the resident painter's brushes (and calls them delicious) and he eats messenger birds, and I'm not sure if he cooks them or anything.

Of course, he might just be a weird guy. None of the Vermintide characters are exactly normal examples of the group they're from.
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Maybe Dwarves are lithovores due to being somewhat like stone? Alcohol does convert to energy reasombly well at least. I wonder if their bodies can store alcohol as combustible fuel, I wouldn't be surprised.
 
Rafin said:
I know we might be memeing but there's a limit to how good a beer can be that's much lower to the limit of how good a rune-based piece of equipment or device can be. The long lost beers might have tasted better, been more nutritious, go bad slower and give you the perfect blend of hangoverless buzz and narcotic clarity at the same time, but they would still be in the Warhammer equivalent of the physically possible and therefore not fundamentally differ from what's possible in the Quest present. Except if Brewing is the lost second art of Dwarven magic I guess.
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The ancient dwarven beer was basicly liquid cocaine with none of the health hazards. :V
 
Valmond said:
It's not about a book surviving, but existing in the first place.
And even if it did, it would unlikely to be helpfull because it would contain things like "eat argle bargle cooked if gobbledigook garnished with yumyum".
The specialist crops are gone, as are the specially bred herds, assuming we even know what was herded.
Like, let's assume there exist somewhere a wall fresco with divinely mandated diet pla.
So what?
We have no means to follow it.
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While a bit lower on the canonical scale due to being a novel, there are mentions of dwarf cooks having recipe books and recipes being stored in clan vaults in the short story covering the fall of Ekrund.

That book did portray Dwarfs as having a notable aversion to accepting new recipes as the Ekrund guilds only approved five beer recipes over 1,000 years and every dwarf was obscenely skeptical over the prospect of new types of alcohol, but I don't think food is treated as secretly as runes or engineering. It's still something Dwarfs would protect, but I would expect their generational loss to at least be lower in this area.
 
Rafin said:
I know we might be memeing but there's a limit to how good a beer can be that's much lower to the limit of how good a rune-based piece of equipment or device can be. The long lost beers might have tasted better, been more nutritious, go bad slower and give you the perfect blend of hangoverless buzz and narcotic clarity at the same time, but they would still be in the Warhammer equivalent of the physically possible and therefore not fundamentally differ from what's possible in the Quest present. Except if Brewing is the lost second art of Dwarven magic I guess.
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While its true that Ales are not mentioned to have fallen so low, beer really is magical. Bugman's best straight up makes people immune to fear effects.
 
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SurpriseMe said:
While a bit lower on the canonical scale due to being a novel, there are mentions of dwarf cooks having recipe books and recipes being stored in clan vaults in the short story covering the fall of Ekrund.

That book did portray Dwarfs as having a notable aversion to accepting new recipes as the Ekrund guilds only approved five beer recipes over 1,000 years and every dwarf was obscenely skeptical over the prospect of new types of alcohol, but I don't think food is treated as secretly as runes or engineering. It's still something Dwarfs would protect, but I would expect their generational loss to at least be lower in this area.
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There has also been mentions about dawi sandwich research and development in the thread, i'm sure someone much more helpfull than i can find a quote.
Wonder how many of those clan recipes are pre everything went down the crapper?

Did a quick google, there are some, recipes, to put it kindly (well, list of ingredients) that have survived for thousands of years.
Modern style cookbooks are relatively modern though, giving not only ingredients, but also temperatures, amounts, the accurate way to process the things, etc, though i suspect dwarves, being perfectionists, would hit the idea of recipe as a schematic lot earlier than humans did.
 
Did I ever share my stupid theory that thet reason why most dwarves are somewhat depressive and have trouble with natality rates is partly due to the consequences of species wide alcoolism and that's why Vlag is doing better on those aspects...

What do you say? No I didn't and I was wise not too... well, this is awkward.
 
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Valmond said:
There has also been mentions about dawi sandwich research and development in the thread, i'm sure someone much more helpfull than i can find a quote.
Wonder how many of those clan recipes are pre everything went down the crapper?

Did a quick google, there are some, recipes, to put it kindly (well, list of ingredients) that have survived for thousands of years.
Modern style cookbooks are relatively modern though, giving not only ingredients, but also temperatures, amounts, the accurate way to process the things, etc, though i suspect dwarves, being perfectionists, would hit the idea of recipe as a schematic lot earlier than humans did.
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Ask and you shall receive.

Boney said:
Pretty much. To extent out the bit about spell creation: these are Dwarven standards you have to work with if you're going to get Dwarves to pay for it, and to Dwarves, creating something new for the Expedition makes zero sense. Less than a year of R&D would be pushing it for a sandwich, let alone a new Battle Magic.
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Boney said:
A new combination of already-used condiments might see general distribution in as little as a year, but entirely new ingredients require at least a decade of close study. New meats can take upwards of a century before they're deemed suitable for use.
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Boney said:
That's all the basics, and even a Dwarf could hammer all those out in short order. The tricky part is the variables. An amateur only tests a sandwich in the comfort of their kitchen. True testing needs to take place in every possible setting and state of mind, from being lost in the wilderness to after a hard day of mining to the morning just before a battle. A good sandwich needs to sit well in the stomach even when the person is exhausted or stressed or starving, and it needs to be able to stand up to a fair bit of battering in the lead-up to being eaten.
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Rafin said:
I know we might be memeing but there's a limit to how good a beer can be that's much lower to the limit of how good a rune-based piece of equipment or device can be. The long lost beers might have tasted better, been more nutritious, go bad slower and give you the perfect blend of hangoverless buzz and narcotic clarity at the same time, but they would still be in the Warhammer equivalent of the physically possible and therefore not fundamentally differ from what's possible in the Quest present. Except if Brewing is the lost second art of Dwarven magic I guess.
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While that is true, I think you are setting the limit of physically possible to low. After all, the beer may have been a mere carrier for whatever had the real effect, also neatly explaining why modern recreation efforts keep failing- sure, you may be able to remake the exact some type of beer, but if you don´t know you´re missing something that is as far as it goes.

Basically whatever the divine/magical/related equivalent to putting nanites in there would be in Sci-Fi. Once you allow for that, which I personally find very believable, the beers of ages past could have done just about anything.
 
On the subject of lost information: an illustrative story about this is that in the 19th century, the traditional English table set had three shakers: salt, pepper, and... something else. We don't know what the third one was, despite the fact that pretty much every literate Englishman would have known what it was at the time. Interestingly, every time I've seen this topic come up, people have come in scoffing and saying the answer is obvious, but there's about six different 'obvious' answers that come up from that sort of person.

Less trivially and more archaically, the land of Punt, a major trading partner of Ancient Egypt. We've found a great deal of inscriptions about voyages and expeditions to it, but in none of them did someone bother to say where the hell it was. Why would they? Everyone knows where Punt is, so there's no point writing it down.

It's been said that the holy grails of historical study are the diaries of extremely boring people, because they're the ones that would actually write down that the most interesting thing that happened to them today was having to refill the (sugar/mustard seed/paprika/allspice/nutmeg/garlic) shaker.

Resonant said:
@Boney I know you've sorta answered this already, but I wanted to rephrase the question: has Belegar already named a heir that we just don't know about, and if he hasn't found one, who would be expected to inherit Belegar's kingship if he died?

I'm assuming the line of succession would go to Belegar's closest living relative, Dromgar?
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Kill him and find out.

DragonParadox said:
That said for much the same reason I am skeptical of the whole 'elves made obviously wrong about observable magical phenomenons' I am just as dubious on the notion that the whole diet of the Karaz Ankor is actually bad for them because someone would have noticed the fact by now and at least put the theory out there. Dwarfs do not need humans to tell them about their own nutrition.
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In the history of pretty much every kind of vitamin and mineral deficiency, there are entire nations and peoples saying the exact same thing. Scurvy, rickets, beriberi, kakke, pellagra, you name it. A lot of the time the solution existed but the people in question refused to follow the advise or practices of foreigners, holding that their traditions and customs could not possibly be wrong.
 
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