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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Boney said:
Try it and find out.
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We can't because it makes no sense whatsoever for Mathilde.

I guess we could subtly push Eike upon that path, but that would be a dick move I think.
Codex said:
Aside from Rangers, there's also the Runescribes Guild which is the home for scholars and historians of the Dwarves and where Loremasters come from. However, I think it's important to note that their most important duties are maintaining the Book of Grudges and Book of Remembrance, so you could make an argument that they can have Grimnir as their patron in his Oathkeeper and Grudge Avenging aspects.
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The only ones that I can think of that wasn't brought up are the Leatherworkers, the Woodworkers and the Shipwrights. I guess the Leatherworkers have Valaya due to also being health related due to tattooing and surgery. The Shipwrights might be a subtype of Woodworkers, in which case I don't know who their patron is, or a type of Engineer (i.e. Morgrim).

I assume the Runescribes are who will be the main source of Dwarven employees of our K8P Library then? Until now I didn't even know that most Lorekeepers come from a dedicated Guild. I thought they were members of whatever Guild covered the subject(s) they most specialized in. But general history, law and Grudges don't get covered by any other single Guild, so at least for those scholars it makes sense to have their own Guild. I wonder what their Guild secrets are.

One Lorekeeper that comes to mind is the beekeeper one that we sicced on the We. I assume beekeepers fall under the Herder Guild and either are full members or form rare local sub-guilds like how Barak Varr's shipwrights are now two Guilds that are related to but don't fully belong to neither the Woodworkers Guild nor the Engineers Guild.
 
Rafin said:
We can't because it makes no sense whatsoever for Mathilde.

I guess we could subtly push Eike upon that path, but that would be a dick move I think.

The only ones that I can think of that wasn't brought up are the Leatherworkers, the Woodworkers and the Shipwrights. I guess the Leatherworkers have Valaya due to also being health related due to tattooing and surgery. The Shipwrights might be a subtype of Woodworkers, in which case I don't know who their patron is, or a type of Engineer (i.e. Morgrim).

I assume the Runescribes are who will be the main source of Dwarven employees of our K8P Library then? Until now I didn't even know that most Lorekeepers come from a dedicated Guild. I thought they were members of whatever Guild covered the subject(s) they most specialized in. But general history, law and Grudges don't get covered by any other single Guild, so at least for those scholars it makes sense to have their own Guild. I wonder what their Guild secrets are.

One Lorekeeper that comes to mind is the beekeeper one that we sicced on the We. I assume beekeepers fall under the Herder Guild and either are full members or form rare local sub-guilds like how Barak Varr's shipwrights are now two Guilds that are related to but don't fully belong to neither the Woodworkers Guild nor the Engineers Guild.
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Crafting falls under Grungni. Smithing falls under Smeidnir. If you're building something, you're probably venerating Grungni. Unless it's metallic, in which case it's probably Smeidnir.
 
Dwarfs refused to even go near the water until they could do so in a big floating piece of metal with a engine strapped to the back

Shipwrights are Morgrim all the way.
 
Rafin said:
I guess the Leatherworkers have Valaya due to also being health related due to tattooing and surgery.
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On top of this, some Leatherworkers will argue that tanning technically counts as a type of brewing.

Rafin said:
The Shipwrights might be a subtype of Woodworkers, in which case I don't know who their patron is, or a type of Engineer (i.e. Morgrim).
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Carpenters are usually considered to fall under Morgrim due to a major part of their work being creating ammo for crossbows and ballistae. Some metalworking engineers grumble that Morgrim never worked with wood, but he did work with stone and rope so the door was open for non-metal engineering. Shipwrights can be either Morgrim or Smednir, depending on clan history.
 
Huh. I didn't know you could do Grudge and Bolt Throwers (catapults and ballistae) without wood. I thought that was pretty essential. I don't know how you'd get torsion otherwise.
 
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Codex said:
Huh. I didn't know you could do Grudge and Bolt Throwers (catapults and ballistae) without wood? I thought that was pretty essential. I don't know how you'd get torsion otherwise.
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Even back when the Dwarf Bolt Thrower models were 'made' of wood instead of metal, they had what looks to me to be the Alexandrian / Roman ballistae mechanisms that use ropes instead of wood for torsion.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I feel sorry for the sedan chair. I doubt it asked for any of this nonsense, and now it's all bisected and probably getting burnt on general suspicion of being Chaos-contaminated.
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Unless we subject it to careful study, the way it came apart in splinters instead of getting lightsabered cleanly is very sus. With Kragg's work deactivating its undoubted chaos blessings after the hit, even careful study might not uncover the truth, leaving the foul spawn to reawaken in the local dump and start corrupting innocent discarded furniture.


Really we should be dragon flasking the remains to be sure.
 
consequences said:
Unless we subject it to careful study, the way it came apart in splinters instead of getting lightsabered cleanly is very sus. With Kragg's work deactivating its undoubted chaos blessings after the hit, even careful study might not uncover the truth, leaving the foul spawn to reawaken in the local dump and start corrupting innocent discarded furniture.


Really we should be dragon flasking the remains to be sure.
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How to get closer to being a witch hunter, one bonfire at a time. A book by former Grey wizard Mathilde Weber.
 
I went looking up a few things and then I got stuck down a rabbit hole once I started thinking about ropes. How are they made? Apparently natural fibres like plants woven in a pattern. What do you call a rope maker? Apparently you call them ropemakers becuase other names are stuff like artisan and craftsmen which is so unbelievably none specific. Then I remembered something about rope being "treated" with stuff like oils and things and now I'm pretty sure ropes are much more complicated then I thought. Now I'm stuck wondering if Dwarves have an entire ropemaking guild or if it's a subset of an existing guild. I was initially under the impression that it would be under the auspices of the Weaver's Guild, but I'm not so sure.

Don't ask me why I'm caught up in this weird rope tangent. I'm just curious.
 
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Codex said:
I went looking up a few things and then I got stuck down a rabbit hole once I started thinking about ropes. How are they made? Apparently natural fibres like plans woven in a pattern. What do you call a rope maker? Apparently you call them ropemakers becuase other names are stuff like artisan and craftsmen which is no unbelievably none specific. Then I remembered something about rope being "treated" with stuff like oils and things and now I'm pretty sure ropes are much more complicated then I thought. Now I'm stuck wondering if Dwarves have an entire ropemaking guild or if it's a subset of an existing guild. I was initially under the impression that it would be under the auspices of the Weaver's Guild, but I'm not so sure.

Don't ask me why I'm caught up in this weird rope tangent. I'm just curious.
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Rope was an incredible important material in the middle ages and depending on what you needed it for could be quite complicated. Ship rope was the worst because that needed to be weather resistant, durable and incredibly long.
 
Boney said:
Grimnir is patron of warriors in general, rather than the specific kind of warriors referred to as capital-W Warriors, so Rangers would still fall under Grimnir's aegis along with every other kind of Dwarven infantry.
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So... How is it with Grombrindal. Sorry if this was brought up before in the quest, but i thought that Rangers were sort of associated with him, or he with them. At least from when Belegar brought it up when Mathilde admitted to worshipping Ranald to him and Kragg after the Only Gork(Mork?) ritual disruption? Or is he not dead enough to qualify as someone to have purview in that way?
 
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pucflek said:
So... How is it with Grombrindal. Sorry if this was brought up before in the quest, but i thought that Rangers were sort of associated with him, or he with them? Or is he not dead enough to qualify as someone to have purview in that way?
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I know Bardin from Vermintide straight up denied that he was an Ancestor God like Grimnir and Grungni and the like and simply said he was a great hero. He's in a bit of a weird spot, but I don't think he's treated like the actual Dwarven Pantheon.
 
Remember everytime you see a story in medieval(ish) setting where some guard or adventurer or whatnot just cuts a roap binding someones arms and tells them to run off?
That would almost never happen.
Good rope was expensive. You are not going to just chop them to bits to save half a minute needed to untie a knot.
 
Valmond said:
Remember everytime you see a story in medieval(ish) setting where some guard or adventurer or whatnot just cuts a roap binding someones arms and tells them to run off?
That would almost never happen.
Good rope was expensive. You are not going to just chop them to bits to save half a minute needed to untie a knot.
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I think I've read a novel once where the hero did that in a hurry, while thinking: "Fuck, what a waste of a perfectly good rope."
 
Codex said:
I was initially under the impression that it would be under the auspices of the Weaver's Guild, but I'm not so sure.
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Oh the Weavers Guild. I completely forgot about them. I guess they are Grungni too? Aesthetically he doesn't seem to fit at all to me, but that's subjective.
Raiseth said:
I think I've read a novel once where the hero did that in a hurry, while thinking: "Fuck, what a waste of a perfectly good rope."
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On the other hand when you are in an actual hurry then being prepared to cut rope is a must. On a sailing boat for instance a good knife is a tool that saves lives.
 
matvprok said:
So Gazul exists outside WHFRP 1e? Are Ancestor Gods beside main three have any lore or at least mentions in "modern" lore?
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Gazul gets a brief mention in Tome of Salvation of "He's the Dwarf Morr", and in Grudgelore, there's a brief section that goes over all the Ancestor Gods.

That's all I've run into, personally. 8th edition Dwarfs mentions Morgrim, but it associates him with Runesmiths instead of Engineering.
 
matvprok said:
So Gazul exists outside WHFRP 1e? Are Ancestor Gods beside main three have any lore or at least mentions in "modern" lore?
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Gazul is mentioned in modern lore but gets practically nothing aside from "he's the god of the dead/protector of the dead". He's mentioned as being worshipped in the Eastern Empire by humans apparently, one of two Dwarf gods worshipped by humans (the other is Grungni, worshipped as God of the Forge in Stirland and Nuln).

However, Heirs of Sigmar Page 36 says something truly bizarre in the Sub-Cults of Morr section:

"There are several sub-cults of Morr, some found even among the non-humans of the Old World. The Elves of the Loren and Laurelorn forests know him as Sarriel, Lord of Dreams, while the Dwarfs call him Gazul, a minor god of the dead and a protector of their eternally sleeping ancestors."

I'd simply take it as a human centric view and dismiss it outright.
 
Huh. I was reading this thread, and I started wondering something about the Dawi.

Can a grudge and a debt cancel each other out if they are proportional, or can the smaller one reduce the bigger one if they aren't? Or would they both apply exclusively, to the point a Dawi could be like:" I am paying you back the gold I owe ya, then killing you for shortchanging me."? Or are they just a blind spot in the laws that just leads to Slayers in the rare occassions when it happens?
 
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Codex said:
Gazul is mentioned in modern lore but gets practically nothing aside from "he's the god of the dead/protector of the dead". He's mentioned as being worshipped in the Eastern Empire by humans apparently, one of two Dwarf gods worshipped by humans (the other is Grungni, worshipped as God of the Forge in Stirland and Nuln).

However, Heirs of Sigmar Page 36 says something truly bizarre in the Sub-Cults of Morr section:

"There are several sub-cults of Morr, some found even among the non-humans of the Old World. The Elves of the Loren and Laurelorn forests know him as Sarriel, Lord of Dreams, while the Dwarfs call him Gazul, a minor god of the dead and a protector of their eternally sleeping ancestors."

I'd simply take it as a human centric view and dismiss it outright.
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I mean that is the only way that makes sense. The dwarfs did not get their religion from the humans, but rather the influence was the other way around. One could argue that Morr was impacted by Gazul... though all things told he probably has more in common with the elven Goddess of the dead and fate especially as he is one of the Southern Gods and we know there was contact in Tilea and still is to this day
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean that is the only way that makes sense. The dwarfs did not get their religion from the humans, but rather the influence was the other way around. One could argue that Morr was impacted by Gazul... though all things told he probably has more in common with the elven Goddess of the dead and fate especially as he is one of the Southern Gods and we know there was contact in Tilea and still is to this day
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Morr is not all that similar to Morai Heg honestly. It's a bit hard for me to put it into words, especially since Morai Heg gets so little in canon, but the way Morr is talked about and how his worship and practices go strikes me as quite distinct from Morai Heg. Elves fear Morai Heg in a way that even humans don't fear Morr. There is also the difference between Morai Heg's Fate theme and Morr's Dreams and Prophecy theme.

In fact, while the Death aspect might make you think he has a connection to Morai Heg, Morr's Dream aspect has a far greater connection to Lileath of all people. She is the Goddess of Prophecy and Dreams and the patron of seers and dream interpreters just like Morr.

Being fair, Lileath, Morai Heg and Isha are stated to be worshipped as a sort of triumvirate with some sort of connection, so maybe they all influenced Morr. Don't ask me how Isha influenced Morr.

Anyways, final note is that Morr doesn't give me much Morai Heg vibes. They're too far apart. You could maybe make an argument that human worship made Morr distinct in comparison to the inspiration, but at least Kurnous/Taal and Manaan/Mathlann give me a stronger vibe than Morr/Morai Heg.

If we're taking End Times lore into consideration, which we shouldn't, Morr disappeared when Nagash killed Usirian, implying that they were possibly the same god. He's still worshipped in Age of Sigmar as Morrda, where some of his worshippers believe that he evaded Nagash and survived the purge. Additional fun facts include that Myrmidia survived into Age of Sigmar, Ranald survived and became the Prince of Cats and Taal is still worshipped in one of the Age of Sigmar kingdoms, although whether he's still alive or not is up to question.
 
storryeater said:
Huh. I was reading this thread, and I started wondering something about the Dawi.

Can a grudge and a debt cancel each other out if they are proportional, or can the smaller one reduce the bigger one if they aren't? Or would they both apply exclusively, to the point a Dawi could be like:" I am paying you back the gold I owe ya, then killing you for shortchanging me."? Or are they just a blind spot in the laws that just leads to Slayers in the rare occassions when it happens?
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Not all grudges have to be paid with blood or lives, some can be paid with money.

I'd assume debts apply to those.
 
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