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They don't wear helmets, just furs from wolves they've killed that they wear as mantles. They also explicitly let free their long unshaven hair as well as their beards. They refuse to use shields, instead wielding giant cavalry hammers that they swing from horse back two handed. Even when dismounted they still use two handed hammers and great axes over shielded combat.

Safety isn't first and foremost in the Ulrican brain. BTW, I emphasize the hair and beard part because the books and sources do. I think it's to maintain an image.
It wasn't an exclamation of disbelief. Or it was, but not towards you. Riding into battle without a helmet is just a really stupid thing to do. More so by far than eschewing a breast plate in favor of thick clothing. I get it if Ulric demands it from his clergy. Clergy often does mind boggling stuff as signs of devotion. But demanding it from the rank and file is extremely unreasonable. Especially when making your own helmet (even just a reinforced wood and leather one) is much easier than making those ranged weapons he just considers "cowardly". So it's not even about self reliance. Next Ulric is going to forbid woolen headwear in winter as well. Ah, who am I kidding. He probably already does. Protecting your ears from frostbite is playing god and encroaching on His domain.

How did these tribes even survive the pre-Imperial age? I guess purely through blessings and divine protection. Which is a good strategy for Ulric to bind them to himself. But kind of makes the whole "self reliance" thing a sham, at least on the civilizational level.

On the subject of Ice Witches and Grail Damsels, I believe they are going to be very difficult to recruit. Both are the casters of nations outside the Empire, and both have their power tied to regional divinities, so getting them to come to assist a project in Laurelorn is going to be a tough sell. I'm not ruling out getting then on the project at some point, when we'll hopefully have more of an idea of what we're doing and some preliminary results to tempt them with, but at this stage I believe it will be more trouble than it's worth.
I am specifically worried that Kislev's special and divinely enhanced and maintained Waystone Network might become a blindspot in the foundational paradigm we'll develop. I'd rather pay a bit more for an Ice Witch to sit in and do little more than scoff at stuff than recruiting them only once they become "relevant" and be caught with our pants down, so to speak.

I know I am repeating myself, but my dream team includes a total of four more recruitments (Hekartines, Hoethians, Halethans, Ice Witches) where most others in this thread are more than ready to start after two more recruitments.
That elves don't get Arcane Marks even when they are mono wind users is the same reason that eventual High Magic users don't get them while they are learning each wind at the start of their life. Because they are able to spend years and even decades meditating on a spell and searching for errors before they first attempt it.
It is also a outcome of the different way that they practice magic that is enabled because their lifespan.

I agree that humans don't go out of their way to obtain arcane marks.
Elves are the same and infact they can go further to avoid getting marks. We know that getting Arcane Marks is a career killer for aspiring high mages. That tells us it is possible for them to get them and further more it explains a selection bias in High Magic users, and by extension Elven lords and the like.
Maybe you're right and it's all up to education, but it's not the feeling I got back when Boney chimed in in the whole "is Elven magic inherently superior to Human magic" discussion. My understanding was that Elves are incapable of making spells do stuff they are not supposed to be mechanically capable of doing, let alone capable of inventing new spells by accident. And that their souls are just less malleable and prone to change.

Again, this may be because they learn the ins and outs of each spell in too much detail for it to leave any space in their minds which allows for enough ignorance for them to even subconsciously go "but that could work this way too". But that kind of contradicts two WoG we got on spell creation. Namely that a) codifying a spell makes it into a sort of black box where people can learn it without understanding it's underlying mechanisms and logics. And b) Mathilde and other Human spell creators should theoretically be capable of teaching their spells to Elves. My conclusion of these facts is that an Elf doesn't need to be fully informed of every detail of a spell's functioning in order to be willing and able to cast it. And my corollary conclusion is that Elves learn and cast spells sometimes imperfectly, yet suffer from Arcane Marks far more rarely. Just like they suffer from mutations more rarely despite living under the same green moon.


Now as far as I can remember Elven mono wind users are either
Which category do you consider Shadow Warriors, Dragon Riders and Mist Mages to belong to? The second one I guess?
 
It wasn't an exclamation of disbelief. Or it was, but not towards you. Riding into battle without a helmet is just a really stupid thing to do. More so by far than eschewing a breast plate in favor of thick clothing. I get it if Ulric demands it from his clergy. Clergy often does mind boggling stuff as signs of devotion. But demanding it from the rank and file is extremely unreasonable. Especially when making your own helmet (even just a reinforced wood and leather one) is much easier than making those ranged weapons he just considers "cowardly". So it's not even about self reliance. Next Ulric is going to forbid woolen headwear in winter as well. Ah, who am I kidding. He probably already does. Protecting your ears from frostbite is playing god and encroaching on His domain.

How did these tribes even survive the pre-Imperial age? I guess purely through blessings and divine protection. Which is a good strategy for Ulric to bind them to himself. But kind of makes the whole "self reliance" thing a sham, at least on the civilizational level.
Knights of the White Wolf are Templars.

Boris Todbringer does wear a helmet for example.

(And his helmet wears a castle)
 
I know I am repeating myself, but my dream team includes a total of four more recruitments (Hekartines, Hoethians, Halethans, Ice Witches) where most others in this thread are more than ready to start after two more recruitments.
I'm just tired of waiting to begin the damn project. We can always recruit more after the beginning.
 
I also think it's time to get started, while it was great the the ward of the frost isn't need anything to join. I think we have it all the targets we can go straight to the negotiation with.

Everyone else is likely to take time to even get them to seat down.
 
Re:Elementalism, though it does not fall under Teclisian theory, the framework that the Colleges have built up from Teclis' teachings, it is part of elven magical theory.

Regarding the magic/rune elemental, do elves actually have elementalists?
They do.
That Teclis explained the magic of the eight winds to humans but left that out seems a bit weird if it was an established part of elven magic and humans were already practising it, if the reason he left out high magic is because humans just couldn't pull it off. Guess it could have just been because it wasn't his focus but he could have surely asked an elven elementalist to come over or let Magus know that stuff was legit and to make another College.
It was during a war for survival. The curriculum got pared down as far as it would go to output Battle Wizards as fast as possible to try to hold back the tide of armageddon. This isn't the first or the last little niche that was left out.
 
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This post:

Is repliying to this post:


It's about Windherder.

Here's the thing that gets me, though- it's not just an Anoqeyan word, it's also a word in Dark Tongue, like the names for the Winds of Magic. Admittedly, the source on this is The Lost and the Damned, from 1st edition RP, but I'm not aware of a later book that gives a list of words in Dark Tongue.
6th Edition Hordes of Chaos page 106 has a full page on Dark Tongue. Summarizing a few things:

Hysh means White or Light Magic. Azyr means Blue or Celestial Magic. Chamon means Yellow or Gold Magic. Ghur means Brown or Beasts Magic. Ghyran means Green or Life Magic. Ulgu means Grey or Shadow Magic. Shyish means Purple or Death Magic. Aqshy means Red or Fire Magic. Dhar means Black or Dark Magic. Qhaysh means all colours or High Magic.

In addition. Khaos means Chaos, Sea of Souls, Magic, Power. Phaos means Will, Mind, Soul, Essence. Dhaos means Immaterial, Spirit, Daemon, Entity. Tzeen means Change or the Will to Change. Nurgh means Decay- the will to live and defy Decay. Slaa means Ecstasy- the will to feel and sense. Khar means Rage- The Will to Dominate. Leth or neth means Lord of, Master of, Source of and/or ruler of.

There are also prefixes and suffixes that change the meanings of words. -'y means Metallic. Aqshy'y means Bronze/Brass. Hish'y means Ithilmar. -ash means Liquid. Aqshyash is blood and Azyrash means water. I' means element. I'aqshy is fire and I'azyr is air. The Kha- prefix means Time. Khaaqshy is sunrise/sunset and Khadhar is night. The -ek suffix means Place. Aqshyek is Battlefield and Qhayshek means the world. 'Phak means Event. Aqshy'phak means Battle and Chamon'phak means explosion. Dha- refers to a heavenly body. Dhaaqshy is a comet and Dhachamon is the sun. If you're describing simple colors, you remove the last letter. Aqsh is red and Ulg is grey. You can combine them using compound words, like Khadhar'phak meaning Nightfall and Neth Khadar'Phak meaning either Lord of Nightfall or interpreted as Nightbringer.

Dark Tongue is very interesting, and the names of the Winds are practically essential for the language.
 
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Sweet, I can stop using 1st edition in these arguments.

So yeah, Qhaysh is a word in Dark Tongue, there's gotta be something to it beyond "an Elven method" in my view.

I mean, the magical God toads over in Lustria, who's a integral part of this planet's creation is using Qhaysh. So i'd hardly call it just elven, considering that
 
Sweet, I can stop using 1st edition in these arguments.

So yeah, Qhaysh is a word in Dark Tongue, there's gotta be something to it beyond "an Elven method" in my view.
I mean we know it's not just an Elven method because Slaan use it, and they were the ones to school the Elves in the first place (Note: Some sources differ and say Old Ones directly, but other sources say that only First Generation Slaan could withstand the presence of the Old Ones. I'd just chalk it up to mythologising the Slaan as Old Ones from the perspective of the Elves).I'm also pretty sure that Dark Tongue, Khazalid and Anoqeyan all descend from the Old One's Language, which the Slaan could obviously use.
 
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I mean, the magical God toads over in Lustria, who's a integral part of this planet's creation is using Qhaysh. So i'd hardly call it just elven, considering that
I mean we know it's not just an Elven method because Slaan use it, and they were the ones to school the Elves in the first place (Note: Some sources differ and say Old Ones directly, but other sources say that only First Generation Slaan could withstand the presence of the Old Ones. I'd just chalk it up to mythologising the Slaan as Old Ones from the perspective of the Elves).I'm also pretty sure that Dark Tongue, Khazalid and Anoqeyan all descend from the Old One's Language, which the Slaan could obviously use.
There've been a number of claims that Qhaysh is a purely elven term, which is what I was responding to.

Basically the question of if Qhaysh is just a method to combine winds or if there exists something beyond that.
 
Knights of the White Wolf are Templars.

Boris Todbringer does wear a helmet for example.

(And his helmet wears a castle)
Ah. I guess at some point I thought the discussion was on whether gods demand institutions in their holy cities to at least pretend like following their strictures is a good and important thing.
I'm just tired of waiting to begin the damn project. We can always recruit more after the beginning.

Right now the closest thing to Human divine understanding we have on board is the vague Ghyran worship of the traditionalist Jades, who worship a Wind as opposed to something wholly outside the Teclisian paradigm, and Mathilde herself, who worships a deity not specialized or very interested in magic that also approved of Mathilde permanently locking away a rich path of research (yes I am still upset). We are in danger of entering this endeavor with a major blindspot.
And even with the Hedgewise on board I am worried that neither their goddess nor their skills are major and powerful enough to adequately represent that important viewpoint.
The Ice Witches are the foremost known example (among Order factions) that practice divinely guided arcane magic. The closest Humans get to Waaagh style casting. And it is all but confirmed that they already grog Waystones to some extent. Maybe even more so than any of the Colleges (including the Jades).
Honestly, I would want them on board even before I consider the Halethans. It's just that, given the Father being a thing, I know that that will never happen. So I campaign for both instead.
6th Edition Hordes of Chaos page 106 has a full page on Dark Tongue. Summarizing a few things:

Hysh means White or Light Magic. Azyr means Blue or Celestial Magic. Chamon means Yellow or Gold Magic. Ghur means Brown or Beasts Magic. Ghyran means Green or Life Magic. Ulgu means Grey or Shadow Magic. Shyish means Purple or Death Magic. Aqshy means Red or Fire Magic. Dhar means Black or Dark Magic. Qhaysh means all colours or High Magic.

In addition. Khaos means Chaos, Sea of Souls, Magic, Power. Phaos means Will, Mind, Soul, Essence. Dhaos means Immaterial, Spirit, Daemon, Entity. Tzeen means Change or the Will to Change. Nurgh means Decay- the will to live and defy Decay. Slaa means Ecstasy- the will to feel and sense. Khar means Rage- The Will to Dominate. Leth or neth means Lord of, Master of, Source of and/or ruler of.

There are also prefixes and suffixes that change the meanings of words. -'y means Metallic. Aqshy'y means Bronze/Brass. Hish'y means Ithilmar. -ash means Liquid. Aqshyash is blood and Azyrash means water. I' means element. I'aqshy is fire and I'azyr is air. The Kha- prefix means Time. Khaaqshy is sunrise/sunset and Khadhar is night. The -ek suffix means Place. Aqshyek is Battlefield and Qhayshek means the world. 'Phak means Event. Aqshy'phak means Battle and Chamon'phak means explosion. Dha- refers to a heavenly body. Dhaaqshy is a comet and Dhachamon is the sun. If you're describing simple colors, you remove the last letter. Aqsh is red and Ulg is grey. You can combine them using compound words, like Khadhar'phak meaning Nightfall and Neth Khadar'Phak meaning either Lord of Nightfall or interpreted as Nightbringer.

Dark Tongue is very interesting, and the names of the Winds are practically essential for the language.
On the one hand this is some cool stuff and I really want to play around with affix combinations that have less intuitive results than the in book examples.

On the other hand the idea that really simple concepts would all be complicated compound words based on the Winds breaks SoD a bit. Language doesn't usually evolve that way and I don't think it would even with the Eight Winds being the most constant feature of the landscape. And it wouldn't even make much sense as informed language from Daemonic. Everything being built around the names of the Four, yes, but the Winds are not heavily featured in the Aethyr as far as I know. Also, I'd be surprised if Boney fully adopts that canon into the Quest, given that the Sun is one of the fifteen major Kurgan deities and wouldn't be linguistically set into the domain of Chamon.

I do find it quite interesting though that in Dark Tongue fire at it's most powerful or distorted would be considered Chamon-like (Sun, Explosion), while Aqshy is used more for it's mystical/emotional connotation than it's elemental one in these examples. Also, how is battlefield not Khakhar??
I'm also pretty sure that Dark Tongue, Khazalid and Anoqeyan all descend from the Old One's Language, which the Slaan could obviously use.
Doesn't Dark Tongue also have a big Daemonic influence, which in turn is not derived from Oldoneesian?
 
There've been a number of claims that Qhaysh is a purely elven term, which is what I was responding to.

Basically the question of if Qhaysh is just a method to combine winds or if there exists something beyond that.

The Slann using wind seem to stop at Qhaysh and isn't using a "ultra-Qhaysh" beyond that. You have other stuff like Geomatic web or dwarven runes, but at least Qhaysh seems to be theoretical end-point for using the 8 winds like that.

There could potentially be something beyond that, but in that case it would be beyond even the Slann, at which point we're reaching such high skill cellings i think is far ahead of what this quest is going to accomplish
 
The Slann using wind seem to stop at Qhaysh and isn't using a "ultra-Qhaysh" beyond that. You have other stuff like Geomatic web or dwarven runes, but at least Qhaysh seems to be theoretical end-point for using the 8 winds like that.

There could potentially be something beyond that, but in that case it would be beyond even the Slann, at which point we're reaching such high skill cellings i think is far ahead of what this quest is going to accomplish
Er, I'm not talking about a super-Qhaysh method, I'm talking about if there is, say, a substance of Qhaysh that you get if you perfectly mix Winds together, for example.
 
There've been a number of claims that Qhaysh is a purely elven term, which is what I was responding to.
Ah. Yes. A big oversight of mine. I should probably say this in thread, because I forgot to mention it.

So I read 6th, 7th and 8th Edition Lizardmen Army Books. I've read practically every 2E WFRP book. The core rulebook in 2E WFRP says that the Elves are the only group that can reliably cast High Magic in the world, which seems like a glaring oversight. What about the Lizardmen.

Here is where the bombshell comes in. 6th and 7th Edition Lizardmen don't have High Magic. Only 8th Edition Lizardmen Slaan have it. I believe that is where the lore introduces High Magic to the Slaan arsenal.

They've done a pretty good job retconning because it took me a while to realise that older editions of Slaan couldn't cast it, but High Magic Slaan is an 8th Edition thing, and 2E WFRP was written around 6th Edition.

You know, just to further complicate matters in regards to Qhaysh. I'm bailing at this point. I trust in Boney to sort this out if it ever becomes relevant, but for the moment it's not.
 
The -ek suffix means Place.
Dha- refers to a heavenly body.
If you're describing simple colors, you remove the last letter.
And yet Morrslieb is called Ghyranek instead of Dhaghyra. I wonder why. From a Watsonian perspective I mean. From a Doylist one it's probably because the name is older than the language, but that's boring.

Edit: Dhaghyr even fits better IMO. The baleful green moon is not a giver of life. An association to Dhar (with a mere three letters added in between) fits it better. Especially since in the Kurgan pantheon it is the patron deity of ever present Dhar, which none of the Four or Eight otherwise cover. Ghyranek at that point could be relegated to a mistranslation by someone who thought they knew more about Dark Tongue linguistics than they actually did. Confusing "fertile pasture" with "green moon". Whoops.
 
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And yet Morrslieb is called Ghyranek instead of Dhaghyra. I wonder why. From a Watsonian perspective I mean. From a Doylist one it's probably because the name is older than the language, but that's boring.
I have never heard of Ghyranek before this quest. It's Boney canon. Be very grateful he took such liberties with the Kurgan, because the canon version is not pleasant nor are they interesting.

EDIT: Turns out Ghyranek is not Boney canon. It's literally something mentioned in one novel in one chapter from Mark of Chaos. No wonder I haven't heard it
 
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Right now the closest thing to Human divine understanding we have on board is the vague Ghyran worship of the traditionalist Jades, who worship a Wind as opposed to something wholly outside the Teclisian paradigm, and Mathilde herself, who worships a deity not specialized or very interested in magic that also approved of Mathilde permanently locking away a rich path of research (yes I am still upset). We are in danger of entering this endeavor with a major blindspot.
And even with the Hedgewise on board I am worried that neither their goddess nor their skills are major and powerful enough to adequately represent that important viewpoint.
The Ice Witches are the foremost known example (among Order factions) that practice divinely guided arcane magic. The closest Humans get to Waaagh style casting. And it is all but confirmed that they already grog Waystones to some extent. Maybe even more so than any of the Colleges (including the Jades).
Honestly, I would want them on board even before I consider the Halethans. It's just that, given the Father being a thing, I know that that will never happen. So I campaign for both instead.
So what? We've an Archmage, a Runelord, the Light Order who basically live in a Waystone and the Frost Ward, who can create discount Waystones. Runecraft isn't Teclisian, so there's already that. We can always add more people later. And if we recruit the Ice Witches next turn there's even less potential blind spots.

Edit: The original Waystones were created first purely by Elves, then by dwarfs and elves. We already have both, imo it's enough to have a solid guess about the framework.

Also, doing the framework will probably allow us to notice if there's specific groups of casters we need, which would allow us to focus our efforts on only the necessary groups.

But above all, it has been more than 10 months irl since we decided to do the Waystones Project, and we've only just decided to look at one of those damn thing! I know that a lot of preparation was necessary and approved of it, but now I want to receive my metaphorical investment back and actually do Waystones. We've got a good beginning, now it's time to learn a bit more about what we're doing.
 
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Here is where the bombshell comes in. 6th and 7th Edition Lizardmen don't have High Magic. Only 8th Edition Lizardmen Slaan have it. I believe that is where the lore introduces High Magic to the Slaan arsenal.
You want to know something really funny, though?

They can use High Magic in 5th edition.


Warhammer is contradictions built on contradictions built on retcons.
 
I'm one of the people who that wanted the Hedgewise in on the ground floor the most.

But there absolutely no reason we can tell the bosses why we haven't started yet now.

None of the bosses have a high enough option of the hedgewise for us to say that we out delaying for them.

And the ice witches and damsels will take forever.

So it's better to start, but keep recruiting.
 
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Yeah, I'm ready to get started on the project. We can (and should) bring more in later, but I don't think the Ice Witches and Damsels will get involved unless we have enough already done that they can be satisfied they won't be pissing their work away and will actually see some benefit to their home polities. I don't think involving the high elves is a good idea at all, based on this Boney post:
Ulthuan does not want anyone messing with the Waystones, and if they find out about the project they're extremely likely to go to great lengths to try to shut it down.
So reaching out to them at all is very risky.

My thinking is that next turn we either play it safe and Gamble on making the framework, in which case I would strongly support using the Father to recruit the Hedgewise the turn afterwards, or we decide that making the framework doesn't need the Gambler and we just Father the Hedgewise in at the same time we make the framework. And probably we'll want to rope in more Laurelorn factions over time. But we have a broad enough talent pool -- three Orders, two Laurelorn factions, and a fully-on-board Thorek -- to get started, and we should.
 
I have never heard of Ghyranek before this quest. It's Boney canon. Be very grateful he took such liberties with the Kurgan, because the canon version is not pleasant nor are they interesting.
I never read those books either, but Ghyranek is also in the wiki. For a moment you made me hopeful that the "inept translator" was actually an irl person.

Anyway, even in the Quest proper I don't think we've ever encountered a native speaker utter the word Ghyranek, what with their healthy aversion to naming their gods out loud without good reason. So that gives me some hope.

... Actually, how would that even work, given their language? "Shadowed" would literally be pronounced "Ulgu'y". I guess that confirms that Boney is working with a different linguistic framework than the book you quoted.

Unless I am bungling things in my mind again and most Kurgan don't actually speak Dark Tongue outside of magic, religious rituals, negotiations with Daemons or foreign Sorcerers, or when their tongues mutate in a specific way.

So what? We've an Archmage, a Runelord, the Light Order who basically live in a Waystone and the Frost Ward, who can create discount Waystones. Runecraft isn't Teclisian, so there's already that. We can always add more people later. And if we recruit the Ice Witches next turn there's even less potential blind spots.

Edit: The original Waystones were created first purely by Elves, then by dwarfs and elves. We already have both, imo it's enough to have a solid guess about the framework.

Also, doing the framework will probably allow us to notice if there's specific groups of casters we need, which would allow us to focus our efforts on only the necessary groups.

But above all, it has been more than 10 months irl since we decided to do the Waystones Project, and we've only just decided to look at one of those damn thing! I know that a lot of preparation was necessary and approved of it, but now I want to receive my metaphorical investment back and actually do Waystones. We've got a good beginning, now it's time to learn a bit more about what we're doing.

I don't know/remember if Grey Lords are actually Archmages. I guess they must be.

Deathfang said that the gods were also involved in the initial creation of the Waystones. Which ones and how remains an open question.

I like your optimism about recruiting the Ice Witches next turn, but everyone wants to recruit the Hekartines and Halethans to test the Father and I don't know if a plan with three recruitment actions and the foundation can win, given the clamors for self improvement and research.

I don't think that there will be much pointing us towards casters not present if said casters are already not present during the creation of the paradigm we will base our research on. Who among the members would think that Kislevite deities and the weird stuff they do to their local Waystones is exactly what we are missing? The Elves that don't think Humans are what's missing in the first place? The Teclisian College Wizards? Thorek?

No. If we don't recruit them now then I'm pretty sure that the only impetus to recruit them later will remain OOC clamoring by players, up to the point where the Project actually needs to travel to Kislev for other reasons. And at that point recruiting Ice Witches will be easier, but integrating them and their theories will not be.

And the ice witches and damsels will take forever.
I don't know about the Damsels, but why would the Ice Witches take forever? We already have an in with them, so one AP should suffice to get a deal where they join immediately (but keep some more secrets), but expect payment in due time. It's how all other recruitments worked (though to be fair they were College colleagues and a Dwarf). The problem is just actually fitting that 1 AP into the upcoming plan.
I don't think involving the high elves is a good idea at all, based on this Boney post:
I fully agree. By Hoethians I meant one of the two Laurelorn Houses. The isolationists or the racists.
 
Isn't the years of meditation and checking of flaws only to create new spells? Boney said that elves take the same time as a human to get to the level of a Lord Magister, so I doubt they take years to learn one spell.


There's also traditions like the Shadow Warriors, Mist -Mages of Yvresse and Ghyran-using Avelornian (at least in quest canon). Those don't sound really religious.
Don't know feel like we'd be better off finding a quote than asking each other.
Although I'll point out Mathilde made a new spell (Battlemagic no less) in a matter of months so either way humans may still be spending less time than elves are.
Maybe you're right and it's all up to education, but it's not the feeling I got back when Boney chimed in in the whole "is Elven magic inherently superior to Human magic" discussion. My understanding was that Elves are incapable of making spells do stuff they are not supposed to be mechanically capable of doing, let alone capable of inventing new spells by accident. And that their souls are just less malleable and prone to change.

Again, this may be because they learn the ins and outs of each spell in too much detail for it to leave any space in their minds which allows for enough ignorance for them to even subconsciously go "but that could work this way too". But that kind of contradicts two WoG we got on spell creation. Namely that a) codifying a spell makes it into a sort of black box where people can learn it without understanding it's underlying mechanisms and logics. And b) Mathilde and other Human spell creators should theoretically be capable of teaching their spells to Elves. My conclusion of these facts is that an Elf doesn't need to be fully informed of every detail of a spell's functioning in order to be willing and able to cast it. And my corollary conclusion is that Elves learn and cast spells sometimes imperfectly, yet suffer from Arcane Marks far more rarely. Just like they suffer from mutations more rarely despite living under the same green moon.



Which category do you consider Shadow Warriors, Dragon Riders and Mist Mages to belong to? The second one I guess?
Sure we can agree to disagree. Like I said earlier. I can't rule it out, I just chose to focus on what I think is the most likely of the explanations.
I do agree that elves could cast a spell without taking the time to inspect it in so much depth, I just think they chose not to.

And I'd actually say either the first or I'd make a new category (I'd kinda forgotten about them).
I feel that a warrior learning a spell to better ambush people is pretty similar to a farmer learning some Jade spells to ensure a good harvest. They're both learning to increase their ability for pragmatic reasons rather than a spiritual reason.
 
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