Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Does that mean that there is a chance for a sixth spawning, if most of them happened without the old ones' involvement?
Ah no. To clarify, the Old Ones were involved with every one of the Spawnings, and there hasn't been a spawning since they disappeared from the world. It's just that no Slann other than the First Generation can actually meet the Old Ones face to face, probably because they wouldn't be able to handle it.
 
Each of the Spawnings seem to have been created for a specific purpose (although the fifth spawning didn't get an explanation I assume it was to manage the ever increasing workload of the Slaan as the non Lizardmen species started to evolve). My personal belief is that Slaan Spawning is an incredibly energy intensive process and so the Old Ones made sure that it could only be authorised/performed at their say so, so when they left no more Slaan could be made.

That's just my theory though, so YMMV.
 
Each of the Spawnings seem to have been created for a specific purpose (although the fifth spawning didn't get an explanation I assume it was to manage the ever increasing workload of the Slaan as the non Lizardmen species started to evolve). My personal belief is that Slaan Spawning is an incredibly energy intensive process and so the Old Ones made sure that it could only be authorised/performed at their say so, so when they left no more Slaan could be made.

That's just my theory though, so YMMV.

That sounds reasonable to me.

Adding to this if you do indeed need a lot of energy it would have to be geomantic energy since that is what the Old Ones used, but of course there is a lot less of that in the world since the Polar Gates blew up, so it might be both a lack of skill and a lack of power.
 
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Old Ones seem to be quite miserly. They have enough energy to change planetary orbit, but skimped on every generation of frogs except the first one? Cheapskates.
 
I just caught back up to the quest and it's really been a wild ride!

Putting in my two cents for the whole thing of the identity of Ranald's and Shallya's mysterious twin daughters and being contrarian purely for the sake of being contrarian, if they aren't Elvish deities... I think Lucan and Luccina, the eponymous twin gods said to have founded the Ancient Principality of Luccini, have a lot to say for them. They're obscure and somewhat minor gods basically unheard-of outside Luccini or Luccini-descended communities, a strange little detour from the usual Classical Pantheon of Ranald and Shallya that nevertheless holds the eldest(tm) and noblest(tm) and most powerful(tm) city in Tilea in the palm of their hands. Plus their origin story is the two coming about in the strange pastoral prehistory back when Tilea was Tylos and the Tileans were illiterate goatherders afraid to venture too far down into the fey and haunted Elvish ruins, with Lucan and Luccina being the first(tm) to discover and found Luccini next to an ancient Elvish colony as a glorious new home for their mountain tribes... which is all basically a direct ripoff of Romulus and Remas, with Luccini taking the place of Rome and with a double-headed magic/sacred she-leopard taking the place of the Capitoline Wolf nursing the Roman twins.

So Lucan and Luccini very much have a whole liminal Ranaldian thing of crossing boundaries as at once both wild children of the leopard with like Roman Lupercalia stuff, and a more Shallyan civic duty thing with being the culture heroes and ancestral progenitors of all Luccinesi and through their temple at the cave of the she-leopard protecting and guiding the city through calamity and loss with ocular visions and prophecies, wielding Ranaldian luck and grandpa Morr's dreams to Shallyan purpose. (Just in general real like Apollo and Artemis energy with like Apollo's oracle at Delphi as the she-leopard's cave and the weird pastoral magic over health and fortune in Classical Greek religion) And it makes sense for Lucan and Luccini to be tied to Ranald's and Myrmida's family in some way too, because otherwise it gets to an almost ridiculous amount of separate and unrelated instances of gods living as mortal for a time and/or transforming between mortal and immortal.

And then the Luccinesi themselves have a widespread reputation across Tilean of being a bunch of madcap bastards; being the most august and inbred and defiantly noble of all the Tilean cities while also being just a bunch of freaking lunatics infamous for valuing crass humor and good taste in wine over anything else. How this happens is that the throne of the Principality is constantly disputed and warred over by royal clans claiming blood-descent from either King Lucan or Queen Luccina and the constant tumult of dramatic vendettas and tragic star-crossed inbreeding leaves everyone not quite sure which side is which anymore. Consequently the reigns of each Prince and Princess has a slightly hysterical carnival air as only frantic appeasement of the court and the masses with generous art and music and theatre and most especially comedy keeps them alive 'til next year- to the point that the earthshattering political transformation Tilean age of revolutions and elected merchant princes just completely passed Luccini by as any dissatisfied citizens had only to wait another six months as sooner or later a tragic pie throwing accident would begin a fresh start with the rein of a whole new Prince. And this is all while at the same time Luccini continues to throw themselves into being perhaps the most arrogant Tileans, constantly boasting of being direct kin to the Gods, the most fortunate and favored by fate of all Tileans, eldest and most powerful daughter of Tylos and queen of all cities and, etc.., etc...

The whole place has very powerful vibes of like Paris in Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame, with the Feast of Fools playing out in the streets next to the great gothic monument of Notre Dame and with the Court of Miracles in the shadows and the ordinary Parisians struggling to rise above their prejudices and darker impulses. Plus, it's right next to Sartosa and has a long long intertwined history with it and the legends of the Jack O' The Sea has Ranald playing an especially close eye to what would become the pirate republic in his tricks and dealings.


The only real hiccup is of course that Ranald has twin daughters, and Lucan is a dude. That one I really don't have an answer for except that for daughters of four-faced Ranald and knockoffs of ancient Greek deities, gender is a fad you shapeshift in and out of, and maybe the daughters enjoy playing a spin off that whole "one of us is always lying while the other is always telling the truth" gimmick by switching around who is playing the roles of "Lucan" and "Luccina"?
 
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I just caught back up to the quest and it's really been a wild ride!

Putting in my two cents for the whole thing of the identity of Ranald's and Shallya's mysterious twin daughters and being contrarian purely for the sake of being contrarian, if they aren't Elvish deities... I think Lucan and Luccina, the eponymous twin gods said to have founded the Ancient Principality of Luccini, have a lot to say for them. They're obscure and somewhat minor gods basically unheard-of outside Luccini or Luccini-descended communities, a strange little detour from the usual Classical Pantheon of Ranald and Shallya that nevertheless holds the eldest(tm) and noblest(tm) and most powerful(tm) city in Tilea in the palm of their hands. Plus their origin story is the two coming about in the strange pastoral prehistory back when Tilea was Tylos and the Tileans were illiterate goatherders afraid to venture too far down into the fey and haunted Elvish ruins, with Lucan and Luccina being the first(tm) to discover and found Luccini next to an ancient Elvish colony as a glorious new home for their mountain tribes... which is all basically a direct ripoff of Romulus and Remas, with Luccini taking the place of Rome and with a double-headed magic/sacred she-leopard taking the place of the Capitoline Wolf nursing the Roman twins. So Lucan and Luccini very much have a whole liminal Ranaldian thing of crossing boundaries as at once both wild children of the leopard with like Roman Lupercalia stuff, and a more Shallyan civic duty thing with being the culture heroes and ancestral progenitors of all Luccinesi and through their temple at the cave of the she-leopard protecting and guiding the city through calamity and loss with ocular visions and prophecies, wielding Ranaldian luck and grandpa Morr's dream to Shallyan purpose. (Just in general real like Apollo and Artemis energy with like Apollo's oracle at Delphi as the she-leopard's cave and the weird pastoral magic over health and fortune in Classical Greek religion) And it makes sense for Lucan and Luccini to be tied to Ranald's and Myrmida's family in some way too, because otherwise it gets to an almost ridiculous amount of separate and unrelated instances of gods living as mortal for a time and/or transforming between mortal and immortal.

And then the Luccinesi themselves have a widespread reputation across Tilean of being a bunch of madcap bastards; being most the most august and inbred and defiantly noble of all the Tilean cities while also being just a bunch of freaking lunatics infamous for valuing crass humor and good taste in wine over anything else. How this happens is that the throne of the Principality is constantly disputed and warred over by royal clans claiming blood-descent from either King Lucan or Queen Luccina and the constant tumult of dramatic vendettas and tragic star-crossed inbreeding leaves everyone not quite sure which side is which anymore. Consequently the reigns of each Prince and Princess has a slightly hysterical carnival air as only frantic appeasement of the court and the masses with generous art and music and theatre and most especially comedy keeps them alive 'til next year- to the point that the earthshattering political transformation Tilean age of revolutions and elected merchant princes just completely passed Luccini by as any dissatisfied citizens had only to wait another six months as sooner or later a tragic pie throwing accident would begin a fresh start with the rein of a whole new Prince. And this is all while at the same time Luccini continues to throw themselves into being perhaps the most arrogant Tileans, constantly boasting of being direct kin to the Gods, the most fortunate and favored by fate of all Tileans, eldest and most powerful daughter of Tylos and queen of all cities and, etc.., etc...

The whole place has very powerful vibes of like Paris in Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame, with the Feast of Fools playing out in the streets next to the great gothic monument of Notre Dame and with the Court of Miracles in the shadows and the ordinary Parisians struggling to rise above their prejudices and darker impulses. Plus, it's right next to Sartosa and has a long long intertwined history with it and the legends of the Jack O' The Sea has Ranald playing an especially close eye to what would become the pirate republic in his tricks and dealings.


The only real hiccup is of course that Ranald has twin daughters, and Lucan is a dude. That one I really don't have an answer for except that for daughters of four-faced Ranald and knockoffs of ancient Greek deities, gender is a fad you shapeshift in and out of, and maybe the daughters enjoy playing a spin off that whole "one of us is always lying while the other is always telling the truth" gimmick by switching around who is playing the roles of "Lucan" and "Luccina"?
Ranald is also gender-fluid in DL. Perhaps one of the kids was trans? Or is gender-fluid themselves? Or is bigender? It's not a bad call though.
 
The first generation of Slaan are implied to have accompanied the Old Ones on their arrival to the Warhammer World (EDIT: After reading on a little, maybe I misread the initial statement, because they later say that Kroak was the first Slann spawned on the planet.)
Ah, as I read further into the book, my confusion is cleared up.

The Slann did indeed accompany the Old Ones in their interstellar adventures, it's just that those "0 generation" Slaan are all gone with no trace of their existence remaining. The only Slaan still left are the ones that were born on this planet.

It is an interesting note that the Slaan are the only Old One created race that predates their arrival to the Warhammer world. Saurus were the result of combined genetic samples from now extinct creatures in pre-historic Warhammer World's times, and the Skink and Kroxigor were built to meet later demands from local genetic samples. While Kroak and his bretheren were born on this world, there were Slaan that predated him.
 
Ah, as I read further into the book, my confusion is cleared up.

The Slann did indeed accompany the Old Ones in their interstellar adventures, it's just that those "0 generation" Slaan are all gone with no trace of their existence remaining. The only Slaan still left are the ones that were born on this planet.

It is an interesting note that the Slaan are the only Old One created race that predates their arrival to the Warhammer world. Saurus were the result of combined genetic samples from now extinct creatures in pre-historic Warhammer World's times, and the Skink and Kroxigor were built to meet later demands from local genetic samples. While Kroak and his bretheren were born on this world, there were Slaan that predated him.
Given what Kroak was (and is) capable of, it's slightly terrifying to imagine what the 0th Generation could do, assuming they follow the usual trend for Slann generations,
 
Given what Kroak was (and is) capable of, it's slightly terrifying to imagine what the 0th Generation could do, assuming they follow the usual trend for Slann generations,
My guess would be that while the local Slaan spawnings in the Warhammer World were dedicated to the planet in particular, the 0 Generation were in charge of upkeep of the Old One's interstellar ventures. The Old Ones were a space faring race with casual interstellar capacity, I doubt they put all their eggs in one basket.

So yes I would imagine the 0 generation were at "solar system modification" level compared to "planetary modification" that the 1st generation and above ones were. Or maybe the Warhammer World is special and the Slaan that were locally made had greater powers than previous iterations. Not enough data either way.
 
A tip and a reminder to myself and anyone reading Lizardmen books.

Tlanxla (Old One and Temple City) is not Tlaxtlan (Temple City), which is not Tlax (Temple City) or Tlazcotl (Old One, although confusing factor is that he's the main god worshiped in Tlaxtlan). Chaqua (Ruined Temple City) has nothing to do with Chakax (Saurus Temple Guard in Xlanhuapec). Huatl (Temple City) is not Hualotal (Temple City), and I don't think either have anything to do with Huanchi (Old One). Tepok, Potec and Chotec, despite having names that are very phonetically similar, are different Old Ones. Xlanhuapec (Temple City of Mists), Xhotl (ruined city), Xholanka (Lost Old One), Xlanzec (Temple City) and Xapati (Old One) are all different. Itzl (Old One, God of Beasts) has nothing to do with Itza (First City).

The Lizardmen books are fun, but the names can get confusing.
 
I'm curious - did Morrslieb appear after the polar gates broke down (signs point to yes - it's made of warpstone and I don't think you can get that without the Winds in some form). If so, does it mean that it slowly messing with Old Ones' precise orbital calculations since they didn't account for it?
 
I'm curious - did Morrslieb appear after the polar gates broke down (signs point to yes - it's made of warpstone and I don't think you can get that without the Winds in some form). If so, does it mean that it slowly messing with Old Ones' precise orbital calculations since they didn't account for it?
It's explicitly stated in several of the older (and I think some of the newer?) sources that the initial warpstone fragments were the results of the fragments of the Warp gates breaking open and being corrupted by Chaos. One of those fragments became the moon Morrisleb.

And yes, Morrisleb is not accounted for in any of the Slaan's orbital calculations, which is messing with them along with all the Chaos. They frequently blank out and forget stuff as their mind gets fogged over, and they don't touch their feet to the ground because they feel that it will further disorder their mind because the earth is so tainted these days.

I find the mindfog relatable tbh.

In other news, I finished 6th Edition Lizardmen. It was fun and incredibly informative. The last page had a very intriguing section on Saurian, the Lizardmen language. I don't think it'll be relevant unless Mathilde decides to learn Saurian, but for reference (and fun) I want to post the table and tips for pronunciation given by the book. It's neat:
Word (or part thereof)MeaningRough Pronunciation
HexGround/Solid/BaseHecks
Oatl/OtlConstruction/Stronghold/FoundingOh-tul
TlaxCity/TempleTlacks
TzaWater/SwampChah
uaxSea level/FloodOrks
TeheScholarly/KnowledgeableTuh-heh
GoqForwards/Steady MarchGock
MundiOf the world, naturalMuhn-di
CuaqLearning/HistoryKwak
ZlatImportance/FocusSlat
GarAttackGar
LoqFierce/Danger/DeathLock
KaiAncient/Forgotten/LostKie
HuanDarkness/Deep Jungle/ MoonHoo-an
BoqWeapon/Hurt/HitBock
TenqScripture/Write/RecordTenk
ConquaJoin/GroupKon-Ka
ItzaFirst/One/BeginningsIts-ah
GorRend/Slash/StrikeGore

  • Words are stressed on the second-to-the-last vowel (excluding U).
  • U does not occur as an independent vowel.
  • X is pronounced like 'SH'.
  • LL is pronounced like a long 'L'.
  • TL counts as a single consonant, never as a full syllable. TL is a type of sound not found in Old World languages but common to the Saurian language.
  • CU and UC are both pronounced 'KW'.
  • HU and UH are both pronounced 'W'.
  • H without an adjacent U represents a glottal stop.
  • Z is pronounced like 'S'.
I think by far the most surprising part is that uax is pronounced "Orks". Pahuax is not pronounced Pa-Hoo-Axe, it's pronounced as either Paw-Orks, or Paw-Ash (Uax is normally pronounced as Orks, but HU is pronounced as W and X is pronounced as SH, so I'm leaning towards Paw-Ash or Pow-Ash for Pahuax).
 
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My guess would be that while the local Slaan spawnings in the Warhammer World were dedicated to the planet in particular, the 0 Generation were in charge of upkeep of the Old One's interstellar ventures. The Old Ones were a space faring race with casual interstellar capacity, I doubt they put all their eggs in one basket.

So yes I would imagine the 0 generation were at "solar system modification" level compared to "planetary modification" that the 1st generation and above ones were. Or maybe the Warhammer World is special and the Slaan that were locally made had greater powers than previous iterations. Not enough data either way.
The 2nd generation modified orbits. That speaks to solar system modification.

More likely I think, the '0th generation' were actually just 1st generation in power or perhaps less and simply more inured to the Old ones presence. They don't need to be more powerful if they had a different role, or if they were simply there for information on other projects.
 
Ah, as I read further into the book, my confusion is cleared up.

The Slann did indeed accompany the Old Ones in their interstellar adventures, it's just that those "0 generation" Slaan are all gone with no trace of their existence remaining. The only Slaan still left are the ones that were born on this planet.

It is an interesting note that the Slaan are the only Old One created race that predates their arrival to the Warhammer world. Saurus were the result of combined genetic samples from now extinct creatures in pre-historic Warhammer World's times, and the Skink and Kroxigor were built to meet later demands from local genetic samples. While Kroak and his bretheren were born on this world, there were Slaan that predated him.

I freely admit that I have no backing for this that is even from Fantasy (so take this with all the salt), but in 40K the few fragmentary artifacts that may depict the Old Ones show them as large toad like reptilian beings. It may be that the Slann are made in the image of the Old Ones, perhaps you could even consider them a lesser caste of the Old Ones, which would neatly explain why there are no mechanisms for making more Slann, they are basically the worker drones of the Old Ones, with only the greater of their species permitted to reproduce.

It would be kind of funny if in a sense the Old Ones never really left.
 
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The 2nd generation modified orbits. That speaks to solar system modification.

More likely I think, the '0th generation' were actually just 1st generation in power or perhaps less and simply more inured to the Old ones presence. They don't need to be more powerful if they had a different role, or if they were simply there for information on other projects.
I was talking individual displays. As in a single one could modify the solar system, rather than an entire group, as was implied with the Second Generation. I know End Times isn't the best source for this quest, but in there, Mazdamundi died from the strain/stress before he could shatter all the pieces of Morrisleb that were raining down on the planet, and so did all the other living Slann, leaving Lord Kroak's spirit, which is weaker than he used to be, to finish the job. It's still pretty impressive for the Slann to collectively pulverise a celestial body big enough to cause an apocalypse before it hits the planet, but not, you know, galactic movement levels of power.

And yes, I agree that it's a possibility that the 0 generation doesn't necessarily have to be stronger. It was a scenario I brought up. But the statement that Mopman made was backed by the fact that each generation is weaker than the one before it, so if it followed the pattern they would be stronger. That is just a factual statement.
 
I was talking individual displays. As in a single one could modify the solar system, rather than an entire group, as was implied with the Second Generation. I know End Times isn't the best source for this quest, but in there, Mazdamundi died from the strain/stress before he could shatter all the pieces of Morrisleb that were raining down on the planet, and so did all the other living Slann, leaving Lord Kroak's spirit, which is weaker than he used to be, to finish the job. It's still pretty impressive for the Slann to collectively pulverise a celestial body big enough to cause an apocalypse before it hits the planet, but not, you know, galactic movement levels of power.

And yes, I agree that it's a possibility that the 0 generation doesn't necessarily have to be stronger. It was a scenario I brought up. But the statement that Mopman made was backed by the fact that each generation is weaker than the one before it, so if it followed the pattern they would be stronger. That is just a factual statement.
Sure, but that assumes that the '0th generation' is actually different. Like, I find it far more likely that the 1st generation is the same level of power on every planetary project the Old Ones undertake, rather it being an endless string of stronger and stronger Slann. The Old Ones are pretty much always depicted as being exceedingly powerful themselves, so it's not like they need super-duper powerful servants around them all the time, and it would make sense they only need the Slann at all to look after projects that are going to go a long time without Old One intervention.

There's also the fact it's impossible that that pattern holds forever. At some point the design has to have been created and then ramped up to the most powerful Slann ever, before descending again towards the weakening later generations we see. Plus IMO, the Slann don't get weaker because they're a later generation they get weaker because the later generations have smaller tasks and weren't required to be as powerful.

End Times Edit: Not all the Slann were killed destroying the moon. A bunch survived into AoS. They seem to have entirely dropped the generations thing there though.
 
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End Times Edit: Not all the Slann were killed destroying the moon. A bunch survived into AoS. They seem to have entirely dropped the generations thing there though.
I checked personally to see what I got wrong, and I misremembered the exact detail. All the Slann that still remained and destroyed the chuncks of the moon died, the ones who weren't there were the ones who survived.

Also, I haven't read the End Times, but that was a section I read before. Rereading it still makes me sad:
Far below, Mazdamundi continues his epic struggle against the falling moon. Using every fibre of his being, Mazdamundi shot blast of magic against the continent-sized chunks, the fragments of which were still as large as mountains but were further hammered by his might. Dozens of other Slann Mage-Priest lent all their power to their eldest but the straining of wielding such power were great even for their own kind. One by one, all of the remaining Slann that stayed behind slumped off their palanquin, their very soul having been extinguished, leaving only Mazdamundi remaining. None of the mortal races knew of that epic struggle. Alone and unaided, the lone Slann fought a noble battle, blood running freely down his panting mouth and eyes as he surpassed feats his logical mind would have deemed impossible. Every ounce of his being was strained beyond breaking point, and at this critical point in time, it would've almost been enough.

Blackness enveloped his sight and Mazdamundi awoke on the cold stone floor. He tried to rise, but to his shame he could not. What remains of the moon was still large enough to destroy the planet, and to his ultimate defeat, Mazdamundi knew he had failed. With nothing left to give, the poor Slann, once the greatest being in this world, crawled up the stairs like an injured animal, wishing to sit once more atop the pyramid-temple where he could at least feel the cool air breath through his skin one last time. He nearly made it, but at last his poor heart finally gave out. The world now is destined to be consumed by fire and ruin, were it not for the sacrifice of one last unsung hero. Atop the pinnacle of the Pyramid, the first of the Slann, Venerable Lord Kroak saw his pupil expire on the steps and knew now what must be done. With a flash, Lord Kroak lifted his hand in defiance and summoned forth the greatest magic he knows, the Shield of the Old Ones, a massive magical dome which protected the rest of the world from the apocalypse, whilst Lustria and the Southlands was consumed by fire. It was a selfless act, and as millions were saved by utter annihilation, the last of the Slann simply looked on as he was consumed by the wall of fire which slowly approaches him. The world had been saved, if only for the briefest of moments.
I will make a confession. I think Mazdamundi's very cute. He's so huggable. I felt so bad reading that section.
 
I checked personally to see what I got wrong, and I misremembered the exact detail. All the Slann that still remained and destroyed the chuncks of the moon died, the ones who weren't there were the ones who survived.

Also, I haven't read the End Times, but that was a section I read before. Rereading it still makes me sad:
Far below, Mazdamundi continues his epic struggle against the falling moon. Using every fibre of his being, Mazdamundi shot blast of magic against the continent-sized chunks, the fragments of which were still as large as mountains but were further hammered by his might. Dozens of other Slann Mage-Priest lent all their power to their eldest but the straining of wielding such power were great even for their own kind. One by one, all of the remaining Slann that stayed behind slumped off their palanquin, their very soul having been extinguished, leaving only Mazdamundi remaining. None of the mortal races knew of that epic struggle. Alone and unaided, the lone Slann fought a noble battle, blood running freely down his panting mouth and eyes as he surpassed feats his logical mind would have deemed impossible. Every ounce of his being was strained beyond breaking point, and at this critical point in time, it would've almost been enough.

Blackness enveloped his sight and Mazdamundi awoke on the cold stone floor. He tried to rise, but to his shame he could not. What remains of the moon was still large enough to destroy the planet, and to his ultimate defeat, Mazdamundi knew he had failed. With nothing left to give, the poor Slann, once the greatest being in this world, crawled up the stairs like an injured animal, wishing to sit once more atop the pyramid-temple where he could at least feel the cool air breath through his skin one last time. He nearly made it, but at last his poor heart finally gave out. The world now is destined to be consumed by fire and ruin, were it not for the sacrifice of one last unsung hero. Atop the pinnacle of the Pyramid, the first of the Slann, Venerable Lord Kroak saw his pupil expire on the steps and knew now what must be done. With a flash, Lord Kroak lifted his hand in defiance and summoned forth the greatest magic he knows, the Shield of the Old Ones, a massive magical dome which protected the rest of the world from the apocalypse, whilst Lustria and the Southlands was consumed by fire. It was a selfless act, and as millions were saved by utter annihilation, the last of the Slann simply looked on as he was consumed by the wall of fire which slowly approaches him. The world had been saved, if only for the briefest of moments.
I will make a confession. I think Mazdamundi's very cute. He's so huggable. I felt so bad reading that section.
I do feel real sad that Mazda died, but I find the next scene where Kroak decides that being dead is for chumps too awesome to care.
 
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