Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
There's not much to redesign, N'Kari never got a model or rules.
I believe N'Kari here is based off some old artwork of him(?) facing off against Aenarion.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I believe N'Kari here is based off some old artwork of him(?) facing off against Aenarion.
Codex
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This is the image that was used in 8th Edition on the N'Kari fighting Tyrion and Teclis story. The image I'm going to post is small, but it shows nipples, so fair warning if you consider that NSFW:
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I would just like to note, this is the old Keeper of Secrets model:
This is the Age of Sigmar Keeper of Secrets model that Total War is using instead of the old Fantasy ones:
I don't know about you guys, but I prefer AoS design over the original one. Seems more fitting for Slaanesh.
Also, an interesting thing about the trailer is that it introduces a new unit for Nurgle. I want to mention it because it's the most perfect unit that I've ever seen in Warhammer.
Behold, the Nurgling Mecha.
Also, an interesting thing about the trailer is that it introduces a new unit for Nurgle. I want to mention it because it's the most perfect unit that I've ever seen in Warhammer.
Behold, the Nurgling Mecha.
- Location
- Aotearoa
'Original' in a property as long-running as Warhammer rather depends on how far back you look.
The boob and crab themes remained a constant though, it seems.
The boob and crab themes remained a constant though, it seems.
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Codex
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So I'm blazing my way through Warhammer 6th Edition Skaven, and it has probably one of the most detailed descriptions I've found on the equipment of a Warlock Engineer and exactly how they do things.
"Warlock Engineers are not natural born Wizards. They try instead to control the energies of the Winds of Magic by means of their weird sorcerous science. Warlock Engineers go to war wearing impressive pieces of equipment known as warp-power accumulators.
These warpstone powered machines are carried on the Warlock Engineer's back and are often partially implanted into his body. They pick up and concentrate the energies of the Winds of Magic through an antenna that is worn by the Skaven scientist on his tail. They also include an eyepiece that allows the Warlock to see the mutable ebbs and flows of the magical energies in the ether"
In 7th Edition this is the description of Warlock Engineers:
"On the battlefield it is readily apparent that some of the Warlock Engineers are able to channel and cast magic in the traditional ways understood by the races of the world. They harness the energies of the Winds of Magic and channel it into foul Skaven effects. Whether or not this is done with the aid of warped machinery is unknown."
When I first read the 7th Edition description I was fully under the impression Warlock Engineers were magic adepts who weren't as strong as Grey Seers, kind of like Perpetuals who compensate for their lack of magical talent with science. They even gave the whole "unknown" speech to give some air of mystery, but 6th is very explicit that Warlock Engineers have next to no magical abilities. They pick up the WInds through their antenna, then they "channel" magic through their warp accumulators, they "see" the winds through a personal Sevirscope (of course the Skaven beat us there), and they "cast" spells through contraptions that shapes the winds into special effects like Warp Lightning through their blades and glaives.
I personally enjoy the "no magical ability whatsoever" interpretation better, because we know that the Grey Seers want a monopoly on magic. Yet Clan Skyre are the most powerful of the Great Clans, holding great influence in Skavenblight with their leader having the number 1 spot (facing the Seerlord Kritslik who is number 12, which factors into their absurd political system). While you could justify that as the Grey Seers granting concessions to Clan Skyre because of their valuable war machines and inventions, I think the idea of them looking down on the Warlock Engineers lack of magical ability (which is why they weren't picked up as kids) and not considering their technosorcery "real magic" might be the reason.
Eshin explicitly hides their Sorcerors from the Grey Seers, prefering them not to be seen. Moulder use all kinds of magical materials but don't technically cast spells. The Plague Priests of Clan Pestilens cast from the Lore of Plague, but they've always been the odd ones out, given that they caused two (three in DL) civil wars.
I don't think we picked up a Warlock Engineer's Scouter from K8P did we? Unfortunate.
"Warlock Engineers are not natural born Wizards. They try instead to control the energies of the Winds of Magic by means of their weird sorcerous science. Warlock Engineers go to war wearing impressive pieces of equipment known as warp-power accumulators.
These warpstone powered machines are carried on the Warlock Engineer's back and are often partially implanted into his body. They pick up and concentrate the energies of the Winds of Magic through an antenna that is worn by the Skaven scientist on his tail. They also include an eyepiece that allows the Warlock to see the mutable ebbs and flows of the magical energies in the ether"
In 7th Edition this is the description of Warlock Engineers:
"On the battlefield it is readily apparent that some of the Warlock Engineers are able to channel and cast magic in the traditional ways understood by the races of the world. They harness the energies of the Winds of Magic and channel it into foul Skaven effects. Whether or not this is done with the aid of warped machinery is unknown."
When I first read the 7th Edition description I was fully under the impression Warlock Engineers were magic adepts who weren't as strong as Grey Seers, kind of like Perpetuals who compensate for their lack of magical talent with science. They even gave the whole "unknown" speech to give some air of mystery, but 6th is very explicit that Warlock Engineers have next to no magical abilities. They pick up the WInds through their antenna, then they "channel" magic through their warp accumulators, they "see" the winds through a personal Sevirscope (of course the Skaven beat us there), and they "cast" spells through contraptions that shapes the winds into special effects like Warp Lightning through their blades and glaives.
I personally enjoy the "no magical ability whatsoever" interpretation better, because we know that the Grey Seers want a monopoly on magic. Yet Clan Skyre are the most powerful of the Great Clans, holding great influence in Skavenblight with their leader having the number 1 spot (facing the Seerlord Kritslik who is number 12, which factors into their absurd political system). While you could justify that as the Grey Seers granting concessions to Clan Skyre because of their valuable war machines and inventions, I think the idea of them looking down on the Warlock Engineers lack of magical ability (which is why they weren't picked up as kids) and not considering their technosorcery "real magic" might be the reason.
Eshin explicitly hides their Sorcerors from the Grey Seers, prefering them not to be seen. Moulder use all kinds of magical materials but don't technically cast spells. The Plague Priests of Clan Pestilens cast from the Lore of Plague, but they've always been the odd ones out, given that they caused two (three in DL) civil wars.
I don't think we picked up a Warlock Engineer's Scouter from K8P did we? Unfortunate.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Myself I often prefer the wider and more inclusive interpretations. In this case that would be that some or even most Warlock-Engineers can't do magic on any grand scale without equipment, but that there are also some with innate talent. And that some of them let their talent atrophy because the tech is "obviously better" and their own attempts at magic are more likely to get in the way than not (but they might still use it in desperation) while others have found ways how to harmonize the two sides and boost their tech with their innate abilities and vice versa.
After all we know that there are rats with the magic gene that aren't grey (like the Eshin Sorcerers) and that Dhar magic needs less inborn talent than other magic to attain basic destructive effects and such. So a whole Clan (or more) experimenting with magitek while constantly snorting warpstone and none of them ever noticing or experimenting with their innate abilities seems unlikely. Though maybe their paradigm just relies on the tech so much that they aren't really wizards without it at this point.
- Location
- Aotearoa
If that's the Sevirscope-analogue-eyepiece, then no.
We did however pick up the library of a Skryre warlock-engineer-
But if as the passage says it leans into the mechanical, as opposed to the magical side of their technology, it might not be covered there either.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Yep. N'Kari is the most prominent Greater Daemon of Slaanesh, mostly known for stories of him attacking descendants of Aenarion (Malekith somehow got him to go after the Everqueen for him during the Dark Elf invasion of ~2300 IC, and Tyrion and Teclis became famous for protecting Alarielle and defeating N'Kari)
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To those curious, N'Kari's fought and lost against Aenarion twice back during the Catastrophe and formed a grudge against him. After that he tried taking revenge by attacking Tyrion and Teclis, Aenarion's descendants, when they were like 16 years old (actually 16 years old not 16 for an Elf). He kicked their asses and killed the guard and everything, but Teclis and Tyrion took refuge in a Shrine of Asuryan so N'Kari got too cocky and too close to a flame blessed by Asuryan. He got consumed by the fire and defeated.
Then he came back 2300 working with Malekith to take revenge. He was sent to track down Teclis and Tyrion by Malekith. The Army Books don't say this, but apparently in Blood of Asuryan there's something about Malekith using some sort of Amulet to control N'Kari which also happened to weaken him (probably as an explanation for how he'll be treated in a little while). Ariel in Athel Loren sends support to the Everqueen (who is with Tyrion), and so Scarloc and his band come through the World Roots into Avelorn. They come across N'Kari and play a deadly game of cat and mouse that distracts N'Kari for a few weeks until Scarloc has to fall back. N'Kari finally finds Tyrion afterwards and beats him half to death until Teclis comes in and does what he does best. Send him back to the shadow realm.
In Dark Elves 8th Edition Army Book, N'Kari attempts to take revenge against Malekith. This is actually a super in depth narrative event in the book. Malekith mentions that after he fell into the Realm of Chaos (It should be mentioned that in this case Teclis did not send him there, Malekith portaled himself into the Aethyr to escape Teclis activating the Flames of Aenarion still trapped underneath his armor or whatever), he and N'Kari met again. To be exact: "When he had last fought N'Kari, it had been beneath the walls of the Marcher Fortress in the Realm of Chaos. There, the Daemon had been at the peak of its powers, whilst the Witch King had been near death. Now the tables were turned, and Malekith was determined to have his own revenge".
So apparently Malekith fought N'Kari in the Realm of Chaos and survived. In the fight I referenced (which was after Malekith came back to the material plane), Malekith defeated N'Kari and offered his headless corpse as an offering to Atharti (it didn't dissolve for some reason). Malekith also killed a Keeper of Secrets in that fight by clenching his fist, causing all the bones in the KoS's body to be simultaneously crushed.
That's a total loss count of twice to Aenarion, once to Asuryan, once to Teclis, and at least once to Malekith.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The trouble with being unkillable is that people can establish their badass cred by beating you and you can still be alive after. Which also means it can happen again.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
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- Plato´s cave.
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Counterpoint: Mortals would not be dealing with shame after that, they would be dead. A bruised ego can heal.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Yeah, but that means that the company can't have someone kill you to establish their cred. Because they need you alive.
Like, GW on tabletop couldn't have Karl Franz killed by some Chaos champion to show they're hot stuff, because they needed him alive. Tyrion's backstory can't involve a time he got killed by a Dark Elf.
With Daemons, you can have them lose again and again and again and still have them around.
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Counter-counterpoint: A Keeper of Secrets is basically made of pride, the constant gnawing shame is likely a fate worse than death.
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I don't want to seem like I'm picking on N'kari, so here's Ku'Gath Plaguefather's list of defeats.
While N'Kari hates Elves, Ku'gath hates Dwarfs. Part of it is that they're tough and don't succumb to disease as easily as others, which offends Ku'gath on a professional level. The other part is that he invaded Karaz-a-Karak during the Great Catastrophe and was defeated by falling rocks (it was a controlled collapse by the Dwarves), which humiliated him enough that he formed a grudge. He attacked the Dwarfs again 5000 years later in 111 IC, attacking Karaz a Karak again, because he didn't learn his lesson. He breached three of the seven defensive layers before he was taken down by King Stromni Axehand. In 1316 IC the Chaos Gods made a wager against each other and had their Greater Daemons attack Dwarf holds. Ku'gath was the only one who failed to destroy a Dwarf hold because he chose Zhufbar, the others chose holds I've never heard of (Karak Mar, Karak Nol and Dok Duraz). He was banished to the Forge of Souls by Nurgle as punishment.
Then in 2520 IC Ku'gath fights Kairos Fateweaver in Mousillon, bludgeoning the big bird to death. He then gets stabbed by a dozen blessed lances by Bretonnian knights. In End Times this is further compounded by Louen Leouncour killing him, stabbing him in the throat and dribbling his holy blood from his many wounds on Ku'gath. Ku'gath then gets pinned down by a Magnus the Pious statue and melts into a puddle from Louen's blood.
While N'Kari hates Elves, Ku'gath hates Dwarfs. Part of it is that they're tough and don't succumb to disease as easily as others, which offends Ku'gath on a professional level. The other part is that he invaded Karaz-a-Karak during the Great Catastrophe and was defeated by falling rocks (it was a controlled collapse by the Dwarves), which humiliated him enough that he formed a grudge. He attacked the Dwarfs again 5000 years later in 111 IC, attacking Karaz a Karak again, because he didn't learn his lesson. He breached three of the seven defensive layers before he was taken down by King Stromni Axehand. In 1316 IC the Chaos Gods made a wager against each other and had their Greater Daemons attack Dwarf holds. Ku'gath was the only one who failed to destroy a Dwarf hold because he chose Zhufbar, the others chose holds I've never heard of (Karak Mar, Karak Nol and Dok Duraz). He was banished to the Forge of Souls by Nurgle as punishment.
Then in 2520 IC Ku'gath fights Kairos Fateweaver in Mousillon, bludgeoning the big bird to death. He then gets stabbed by a dozen blessed lances by Bretonnian knights. In End Times this is further compounded by Louen Leouncour killing him, stabbing him in the throat and dribbling his holy blood from his many wounds on Ku'gath. Ku'gath then gets pinned down by a Magnus the Pious statue and melts into a puddle from Louen's blood.
- Location
- Germany
Think of this DE Champion, I think it was Urias Poisonblade, that only existed to get his ass kicked in Tyrions backstory.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Urian Poisonblade. He exists for other reasons too. He's a really interesting character in the Tyrion and Teclis trilogy.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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That's broadly the fate of the Avatars of Khaine in WH40k. They're shards of the Eldar god of war, made of molten metal and remnants of what that race once was. In the lore, they're punching balls for whoever needs to prove he's a badass.
- Location
- Germany
I was just reading a thread with someone going through the army books in order of publishing.
Urian first died as a single mention inthe High Elves armybook and only later became a character in the Dark Elf armybook and in novels.
So he existed quite literally only to be beaten by Tyrion. For a time at least.
Also the Swarmlord, the Tyranid Hive Mind's supertyrant. And the Necrons.
(And honestly anything that isn't a Space Marine gets trashed, but...)
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There's a joke in this somewhere about Bretonnians being so gross that even Nurglites can't take them.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
So… Worf, WF edition?
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Any notable Daemon with an extensive list of achievements is a worf, as demonstrated with Ku'gath above. It's just the nature of the setting that GW wants the mortals to be cool, not the Daemons, and Daemons being immortal means they can get worfed several times and still come back.
The one notable instance of a mortal losing to someone else and coming out alive that I can think of is really stupid. Ungrim Ironfist beats Golgfag Maneater after he betrayed him after the Battle of Broken Leg Gully, and instead of killing him he imprisoned him alongside his buddies without any food to have them starve to death. He opens the cell many days later to see Maneater as the only one alive because he ate his companions and somehow decides that's impressive enough that he releases him from imprisonment and tells him it'd be more sporting to hunt him down.
Ungrim Ironfist, the Slayer King, decided to release a guy he had a Grudge against for breaking his contract with him, instead of just killing him. GW don't know what to do when they're making two named characters fight and they don't want either to die, if neither can come back from the dead (like Tomb Kings, Vampires and Daemons who do die but they come back).