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I think that there's another way to look at the revelation that Ranald has daughters: this is an offering of information about how the gods work and see themselves, given in exchange for a way to look at the gods and see how they work.

For example, this rules out the idea of gods being just blobs of warp energy that have personalities attached afterwards by their worshipers- there is no family amongst such things, not really, because they all would come from the same source. But here we have confirmation that, to be crude, gods do sexual reproduction without worshiper involvement.

No it doesn't. It tells us that Ranald, gods of liars, presents himself to Mathilde in this way. We already knew that gods present themselves/are presented as being part of family groups. Ranald leading Mathilde to conclude that he has daughters doesn't tell us that means the same for gods as it does for humans.

It could mean lots of different things, like Ranald is starting to tell a new story about himself and Shallya that involves them having daughters, and we're actually witnessing the conception of those Goddesses as they're introduced to Mathilde, and from her that story will spread to create those Goddesses. If that's the case, the Father face of the Coin is a very long play, and it's setting Mathilde up as a prophet/ John the Baptist figure of the yet to exist cults.

Or it could mean that Ranald is trying to redefine a couple of existing goddesses, seeding the belief in his most critical worshippers that they're his daughters before expanding that belief from those anchor points. He may need to keep that a secret for now until he has reached some form of critical mass so they don't push back on his developing narrative in time to easily stop it.

There are plenty of explanations for this that don't require the Warhammer gods to be Greek God style big people in the sky.

We knew people believed that the gods had children.

This is a god telling us that that belief is true.

This is the god of liars changing a painting. The rest is Mathilde's interpretation.
 
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Pilgrim of Torn Veils
Pilgrim of Torn Veils

Have you heard? Have you heard the story about the Pilgrim of Torn Veils? No? Listen, carefully then, and at the end tell me the grand lie hidden within the story.

A friend of Ranald, when He was mortal, this Pilgrim took it upon herself to exemplify all that Ranald holds dear. All four facets, like the most precious gem, she would try to bring forth into the world. So, she started with a lie. She lied to those who asked that she was capable, she lied to those who questioned that she was competent, she lied to those who inquired that she told no lies.

Soon, she found that the lie which was the most powerful was the lie that was left unsaid. The lie that churned in the wake the truth leaves behind in its passage. That silence was a more insidious lie than any gaudy deception or frivolous deceit. So the Pilgrim graduated to tell lies hidden within the truth she revealed, to tell truths disguised as lies. But she never lied to Ranald. And Ranald never lied to her.


And Ranald was delighted.

But the lier is only one facet of Ranald, and so she strove to gamble. Not with the bits of copper coin that a man might wager at the end of their labor, but with something much grander. With flesh and blood of mortals. Sifting through her hand like sand at the beach, she picked her wager and gambled them all. Every soul who trusted her, who sought her guidance, who followed her orders, all laid on the table as the final gamble. Her villain, from across the table, was the first to blink and fold. How grand that pot won! No mere gold could meet with the wager the Pilgrim made. No amount of land could match the price she was willing to pay. Instead, hope for a better future for a dying empire was gathered like glittering sapphires to crown a King beneath the enduring mountains. But she never gambled against Ranald. And Ranald never gambled against her.

And Ranald laughed.

Only two facets, now, were exemplified. Two more were to come. The next the pilgrim choose was that of the protector. To guard those against a threat they can not hope to defeat. For this, the Pilgrim journeyed far to the north, to those enslaved by that which delighted in sensation. They did not know her, could not request her aid, had no means to promise payment. And yet she gave them protection. Laying her immortal soul on the line, she wretched home and hearth, people and pride, away from the clawing clutches of that which promised only annihilation. In so doing, she fought against the inevitable. And won. But she never fought against Ranald. And Ranald never fought against her.

And Ranald was gleeful.

The last facet now remained. That of the thief, the one who lurks in the dark for riches beyond compare. And it was for this facet that the Pilgrim earned her moniker. The Pilgrim of Torn Veils. For a thief does not wrestle from a farmer their dirt. Nor does the thief seek to steal from the scullery maid their wooden bowl. No, a thief steals what is valuable. What is wanted. What is desired. But most of all, what is clutched tightly in the hands and souls of another. But the Pilgrim did not want for gold. Nor did the pilgrim desire fine wine. They sought a treasure more precious than those, and that which is clutched to bosoms more tightly than the grandest jewel. The pilgrim sought secrets. Secrets lost to history, knowledge obscured by the darkest veil. With will and effort, the pilgrim stole those secrets long thought lost and tore apart those veils of deception that knowledge was hidden by. So they earned their name, the Pilgrim of Torn Veils. But she never stole secrets from Ranald. And Ranald never stole secrets from her.

And Ranald danced.


Have you figured it out? The grand lie hidden within the story. No? Then let me share with you a secret. The Lie was that there was one lie. The Lie was that there are only four facets. The Lie was that The Pilgrim of Torn Veils was just a story.
 
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I think a point to make is that I doubt just using the Father will get us the Cults of the Daughters on board with Waystones, even if identify them incorrectly.

The Father only makes them identify us as worthy of their faith and trust buuut... Torek also considered us worthy of his faith and trust didn't he? And he asked us favors in exchange for collaborating.
 
I think a point to make is that I doubt just using the Father will get us the Cults of the Daughters on board with Waystones, even if identify them incorrectly.

The Father only makes them identify us as worthy of their faith and trust buuut... Torek also considered us worthy of his faith and trust didn't he? And he asked us favors in exchange for collaborating.

Well, I don't think anyone is saying they are going to work for us for free, just that it'll get our foot in the door, and for them to treat our proposal with the care and respect it deserves rather than dismissing it out of hand.

Which is the exact same thing we're using the gambler for, only the father coin would have a guaranteed effect, rather than modifying a dice roll.
 
I think there's a fair shot that Heidi is one of the daughters or is involved in one of their cults. It would explain a lot about how she pulled off some of her nonsense. We should wear the new coin face around her the next time we visit and see if she reacts.
 
The Father only makes them identify us as worthy of their faith and trust buuut... Torek also considered us worthy of his faith and trust didn't he? And he asked us favors in exchange for collaborating.
The faith bit arguably goes a little longer, to be faithful is a kind of devotion. Still, even if it's like Thorek, that's a great foot in the door.
 
He didn't decide Ranald was Loec based on them having similar domains, he looked at Ranald's power and recognised it as Loec's power.

Which is interesting support for the theory that one can look directly at a god with windsight, if your being is great enough to handle it. So gods would also know themselves, as was questioned.

I think this is rather overwhelmingly optimistic, Ranald literally refused to give us the names of these beings, why would they answer.... anything at all and when has he ever been that verbose?

Honestly, you've been so relentlessly negative about this that I've kinda started skipping over your questions? Sorry.

We already knew God's could have Childrend. I don't remember which examples were given but there are quite a few.

But we didn't know if children were triggered by the worshipers believing it of them or if it was the gods acting entirely with their own agency. Having children secretly from their worshipers strongly implies the latter.

The protector coin very clearly is mind compulsion. Whether you choose to say that it's merely 'informing' is just a positive spin on what is an invasive alteration of their mind and knowledge being poured in.

I mean, given how often we use 'Take No Heed' and 'Mindhole', concern over mind control is pretty hypocritical.
 
I think we should try out the fifth face because it's new and that's fun. But the probability of the two minor Goddesses we want to recruit for the Waystone Project also conveniently being Ranald's daughters is abysmal. Worth trying for the fun of it, but it's far from a sure thing.
 
We won't know the mechanism of the Father side of the coin until we use it, but while it's entirely possible it works through Protector-style subtle mind manipulation, it's also entirely possible it works like, well:

You're not able to bask in the news you've become known to the Emperor himself, as you've suddenly realized where you've seen this woman before. "A pleasure to meet you!" says the woman who was once known as Countess Gabriella von Bundebad brightly, closing the gap between you before you can react and taking your hands in hers. "I'm sure we've so much in common!" And hidden by her hands, she folds one finger over another in the sign of the Gambler, and with a tiny sliver of divine attention that leaves you feeling giddy, an always-familiar presence gives confirmation.

Like that.

In any case, I'm not going to lose sleep over a mental effect that tells people that we're trustworthy when we really are trustworthy. It's no worse than the Protector, and I have no issues with continuing to use that.
 
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I can't figure out whether Heidi grilling us about why Ranald would get into a fistfight with Khorne on behalf of the Kislevite pantheon means she genuinely is as confused as we were until this update, or she knew exactly why and was subtly trolling Mathilde for not figuring it out.
 
I can't figure out whether Heidi grilling us about why Ranald would get into a fistfight with Khorne on behalf of the Kislevite pantheon means she genuinely is as confused as we were until this update, or she knew exactly why and was subtly trolling Mathilde for not figuring it out.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the fight with Khorne?
 
But we didn't know if children were triggered by the worshipers believing it of them or if it was the gods acting entirely with their own agency. Having children secretly from their worshipers strongly implies the latter.
I guess that might be a lead? But it's not a very good one I think. We gave that up and I'd probably be more salty if faith was just "and you get everything and cake".
I'm actually OK with stuff. Though I still rather use the gambler for the hedgefolk, they don't have a reason to trust the colleges in most cases...
 
Magic; Aethyr; Aethyric Beings; Divine Servants; Twilight Riders
Omake
A Minor Discourse on Aethyic Beings: Divine Servants
Subject: Twilight Riders


In the year 43 of Emperor Mandred II's reign of Sigmar's Holy Empire, strange reports and rumors began to spread among the peoples of the Empire, Tilea, and Estalia. Terrifying specters made of smoke and fog riding steeds of shadows and wielding weapons of indescribable darkness were seen riding across the roads of the Empire, through villages and towns, terrorizing the peasantry of every province. It would not be until four months after the first official reports began to make their rounds through the higher courts and circles that the first confirmed kills by these apparitions began to be known. Nobles and merchants were the first known victims, and it was by their fellows' efforts that the greatest cogs of the Empire began to turn.

The Colleges of Magic, the Churches, the Witch-Hunters, all sent forth great numbers of their agents on the mission to uncover the truth behind these strange figures. Even the Emperor himself sent forth his own servants, officially and those certainly not. Magisters and templars, priests and spies, all began to descend on the commonfolk of the Empire. Their efforts would take most of year, but the truth would be sussed out.

When these mysterious figures were first sighted it was believed to little more than ill-hearted pranks, dark and sinister riders raising ruckuses and depriving their neighbors of their peaceful sleeps. And it was not until the rumors spread that people began to realize these sudden uprising were too numerous and too widespread to be the work of even a handful of sick jokers. The work of evil cults or rebels it was then decided upon by people who wouldn't know the difference between the cult of Gruuvar, an Ostland god of Oxen, and dread Khaine the Elven god of war and murder and whose ideas of Rebellion was singularly against their local lords for whatever mundane reason.

It was not until Sargant Hans Kinkle of the Wurtbad Watch reported to his superiors that he and his partner saw one of these specters form itself from the fog and darkness outside Wurtbad's Eastern gate before charging off into the night that the last rumor was unleased. These terrible foes were deamons, monsters made of nightmares and hate and who desired the destruction of that which was good. And it was this rumor, combined with the confirmed deaths attributed to these figures that galvanized the backbones of the Empire.

But a curious thing would happen. Messages were sent; a witch-hunter to a priest, a Journeyman of the Grays to an Elector, a spy to the Karaz Ankor. A great web was spun. Eleven months after they were first dispatched, nearly 200 wizards, a combined 500 priests of every major religion, and an unknowable number of templars and spies made their reports. Slowly they were read and collated, the experiences of wizards and priests examining the traces of these shadow riders, of templars who chased and tracked their movements, and of spies who investigated their murders coming together to form the truth.

And so it was, in the year 44 of his reign, Emperor Mandred revealed the truth of the Twilight Riders. These foreboding beings were servants of a god, manifested to exact justice in their name. Truths behind the sinister sounding stories were brought to light. The nobles murdered by these knights of shadows were revealed to be murderers themselves or worse. The slain merchants were slave traders or brutes who made their riches by threats and violence. Mothers and fathers who abused their children were harassed by the sound of galloping horses around their houses and being covered in blood when they leave. Further stories were revealed as well, including of how one rode through a town, rallying their militia and drawing them out in time to repel a beastman attack which could have overrun it.

The people of the Empire let out great cheers that day, for the knowledge that one of their gods made such an effort to protect and better their lives was a blessing. These cheers grew much quieter when it was revealed these noble riders of the dawn and dusk were the servants of Ranald, God of many things, including thieves, gambling, and deceit.

And if Emperor Mandred, with a knowing smile and fingers crossed behind his back, went out that night, accompanied by only his faithful shadows, he may have glimpsed, seen, or even met a figure, female of shape and a form of shadow, smoke, and mist alongside a horse of the same and wearing a wide-brimmed hat. And perhaps, with just one or two tears in his eyes, he might have smiled as he watched her jump astride her mount and take off into the mist.


AN:
Did you guys know Hexwraiths are actually servants of Morr, sent out to collect the souls of evil men who refuse to die?

And would Ranald really troll the entire Empire by being responsible for something similar, but like, more directly good? I think he would.

But in all honesty I saw something today where someone talked about the Damelichter becoming a god, but I just thought something like this to be more fitting. Nice even. Ranald is so inspired by Mathilde he decides their should more people like her. So why not make some? And maybe, just maybe, Mathilde herself gets to ride through the night, a shadow of justice protecting the people who deserve to be protected.
 
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I think we should try out the fifth face because it's new and that's fun. But the probability of the two minor Goddesses we want to recruit for the Waystone Project also conveniently being Ranald's daughters is abysmal. Worth trying for the fun of it, but it's far from a sure thing.
In a vacuum, yes. But the fact that this specifically was what Ranald chose to give us as opposed to any other thing he could have possibly chosen to give us ups the chance that he deliberately chose to give us something relevant. By no means a guarantee, but certainly not abysmal.
 
In a vacuum, yes. But the fact that this specifically was what Ranald chose to give us as opposed to any other thing he could have possibly chosen to give us ups the chance that he deliberately chose to give us something relevant. By no means a guarantee, but certainly not abysmal.
Ranald gave it to us as the act of sacrifice gave us the trust in his eyes to reveal secrets, rather than any specific admission. For all we know, he's sending us province hopping because the goddesses are in another castle.
 
Speaking of Bretonnia, has Boney confirmed in DL canon that worship of the Lady restricted only to the nobility?

The existence of Battle Pilgrims is incompatible with that snippet of lore, and besides that it never made sense to me anyway. It just seems like grimdark stratification for the sake of it. There's probably been individual rulers who have decided in a fit of zeal that the commoners are unworthy to enter the grand cathedrals of the Lady, but I can't see the Lady being all that keen on having Her worship and influence gutted like that.

Has that actually been confirmed to be a thing in DL canon? I know Ranaldism is banned in Bretonnia, but is the almost cartoonish level of violence also a thing?

To varying degrees, it's a thing pretty much everywhere. That's how punishment was in the time period.

Well, Mathilde has Extensive Bretonnian on Ranald, so she should know at least the general state, and Boney would've decided on the general state while thinking about Caracassone as a location.
@Boney How is Ranald treated in Bretonnia? The update on Carcassone for the Waystone project mentions he's proscribed, but how stringently is that pursued?

It's not like it's a line on your passport, and Bretonnia's existing institutions don't leave much room for the Protector except in the revolutionary sense. If you get caught being a Ranald worshipper it's because you were doing something Ranald-y, and Bretonnia has strong opinions about crime being illegal.

and even more eye rolling for them to suddenly turn out to be existing goddesses shoe-horned into the role.

Here's a wild idea: assume that whoever these goddesses end up being, I gave the matter some thought before I enshrined it into the canonical metaphysics of the quest, instead of just whacking it in there on a whim.


You've made the point that you don't like this. You can stop actively searching for every possible bad and clumsy interpretation of every facet of it and declaring them to be absolute truth.

Infact, @Boney Is Mathilde aware of which group of hedgefolk Kurtis came from and whether or not he worships Haethla?

Ostermarker, where the Hedgewise are a matriarchal mystery cult. So it's unknown to outsiders who they worship.

@Boney, if we're turned to the Father when we use a recruitment action on an organization that follows one of Ranald's daughters, can you tell us if that will have any effect on the roll?

It will fundamentally change the entire interaction.
 
I think we should try out the fifth face because it's new and that's fun. But the probability of the two minor Goddesses we want to recruit for the Waystone Project also conveniently being Ranald's daughters is abysmal. Worth trying for the fun of it, but it's far from a sure thing.
Probability you say? If only we knew someone who tended to give that intangible concept several swift kicks in the ribs when it suits them. :p
 
There's also a possibility that the image of the symbol itself is known to people who know about the daughters, in which case just, I don't know, having the image on the father side of the coin embroidered on a cloak might have a similar, but lesser, effect to having the coin set to father mode.

It's not a sure thing of course, but just sticking the image somewhere on our person that people can see might be a way to get some info without actively spending AP on it and without having the coin set to parent mode.
 
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