Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Has that actually been confirmed to be a thing in DL canon? I know Ranaldism is banned in Bretonnia, but is the almost cartoonish level of violence also a thing?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I used the search function to look for mentions of Ranald in Knights of the Grail and all I got was that he is perenially popular with peasants and merchants, and is often viewed as more of a merchant god than a thief one (although merchants are viewed as thieves so not much difference to them). Peasant revolts are stamped down brutally but nothing is mentioned about systematic brutal execution of Ranaldites.
 
Last edited:
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Has that actually been confirmed to be a thing in DL canon? I know Ranaldism is banned in Bretonnia, but is the almost cartoonish level of violence also a thing?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We don't know very much about Bretonnia in DL. The most interaction we've had with them is that time we visited while shopping around for a patron for the Waystone Project.

Codex said:
I used the search function to look for mentions of Ranald in Knights of the Grail and all I got was that he is perenially popular with peasants and merchants, and is often viewed as more of a merchant god than a thief one (although merchants are viewed as thieves so not much difference to them). Peasant revolts are stamped down brutally but nothing is mentioned about systematic brutal execution of Ranaldites.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Most of the grimdark with Bretonnia is in the army books, as the portrayal of them varies by the edition iirc.
 
Codex said:
I used the search function to look for mentions of Ranald in Knights of the Grail and all I got was that he is perenially popular with peasants and merchants, and is often viewed as more of a merchant god than a thief one (although merchants are viewed as thieves so not much difference to them). Peasant revolts are stamped down brutally but nothing is mentioned about systematic brutal execution of Ranaldites.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That is kind of what you do with cultists of banned gods in warhammer. I guess there could be a situation where most nobles consider simple worship of Ranald beneath contempt and only brutally execute them when they start peasant revolts (that is what I was thinking about when my mind went to executions).
 
Aha, Page 47 of Tome of Salvation:

"The Cult of Ranald is ruthlessly persecuted in other parts of the Old World. Bretonnia in particular is notorious for its heavy-handed punishments for finding cultists merely travelling through their land."

Knew I was missing something.
 
The best thing about this quest is that I know, no matter what direction the vote goes, the results are excellent. Very happy with this update!
 
I can't decide whether "the Lady is Ranald's kid" is the stupidest thing I've ever read or the greatest. But it sure is something, either way.
 
Codex said:
The Fertility goddess in Middenland and the Lady of the Hunt in the Northern Empire are both Haleth, not Haletha. Haletha is worshipped in the Forest of Shadows by Ostlander and Nordlander Hedgefolk who live in it or close to it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sorry, that was obviously a typo. But can you confirm that the name Haleth refers to two distinct Godesses in Tome of Salvation?
 
I decided not to get involved with the voting on this one to avoid stress. I had a mild preference for Truth, but I'm definitely happy with what we got.

Deathbybunnies said:
We can go without the Gambler for a turn or two when recruiting from the Cults of likely candidates. That would probably be worth it unless all of our guesses are terrible and we spread them over too many turns.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We could go for both the Hedgewise and House Tindomiel (Hekarti) in a single turn. That's two separate shots at finding them, and I think we'd want to try the Hedgewise next turn even without the new face. (After that, I suspect we'll need to back off on the recruiting to organize what we already have, and start hammering out what problems we want to solve.)
 
Last edited:
Codex said:
I used the search function to look for mentions of Ranald in Knights of the Grail and all I got was that he is perenially popular with peasants and merchants, and is often viewed as more of a merchant god than a thief one (although merchants are viewed as thieves so not much difference to them). Peasant revolts are stamped down brutally but nothing is mentioned about systematic brutal execution of Ranaldites.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The action checking out Carcassone as a location for the project mentions that Ranald is proscribed, so that much is canon in DL. But what that actually comes out to (fines, flogging, exile, death, social pressure, overlooked so long as no one calls attention to it), we don't know. Mathilde got (lightly veiled) permission to be there, so long as she doesn't preach.

I think it shows that A) Ranald isn't well regarded by the upper ranks, including the damsels, and they want to keep him out, and B) that distaste isn't so heavy as to preclude interaction if the political realities would make it profitable.

Personally, I really, really, really want the lady to be Ranald's daughter. Like, nearly as much as Cython romance. But the proscribed and "no preaching" thing indicates that he wouldn't have the pull to get Mathilde the trust of the Lady and her followers, so I really don't think she's one of his daughters. That makes me very sad, and I really hope there's some secret circumstances (ancient prophecy of doom if Ranald has a significant presence, or something) that means it makes sense for the Lady to be his daughter given what we know, but it's really unlikely.
But it wouldn't be the first crazy awsome thing to happen, so I won't give up hope quite yet.
 
Last edited:
Codex said:
Aha, Page 47 of Tome of Salvation:

"The Cult of Ranald is ruthlessly persecuted in other parts of the Old World. Bretonnia in particular is notorious for its heavy-handed punishments for finding cultists merely travelling through their land."

Knew I was missing something.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Though this does, of course, conflict with Knights of the Grail where it's heavily implied that Ranald worship isn't particularly persecuted, as you previously said. On the one hand ToS came out later, on the other KotG is more focused on Brettonian culture, so there's no telling which is more canon for the quest.
 
Well, Mathilde has Extensive Bretonnian on Ranald, so she should know at least the general state, and Boney would've decided on the general state while thinking about Caracassone as a location.
@Boney How is Ranald treated in Bretonnia? The update on Carcassone for the Waystone project mentions he's proscribed, but how stringently is that pursued?
 
BurnNote said:
The action checking out Carcassone as a location for the project mentions that Ranald is proscribed, so that much is canon in DL. But what that actually comes out to (fines, flogging, exile, death, social pressure, overlooked so long as no one calls attention to it), we don't know. Mathilde got (lightly veiled) permission to be there, so long as she doesn't preach.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I doubt very much that any god any where would be proscribed and the punishment was merely fines or flogging for worshipping them.
 
Codex said:
The problem is that the Lady has a great degree of direct control over the Bretonnians and is the most active goddess in the Old World with a representative that she can directly contact (Fey Enchantress) which has shown the ability to literally dethrone a king if she felt like it. The fact that Bretonnian society is like it is is because the Lady is not just fine with it, but actively enforces it.

These are the Lady's scriptures for women:
• Preserve your modesty and innocence.
• Serve and obey your father before marriage, your husband after.
• Succour those who are weak and helpless through no fault of their own.
• Show favour only to the bravest and most noble knights who seek your blessing.

The Lady is the only goddess in all of Warhammer that I know of who has different scriptures for men and women. The scriptures for men are the tenets of chivalry and the vows that knights take.

It should also be noted that Knights of the Grail explicitly disallows any women to become a Grail Knight. Page 96 of Knights of the Grail says this: "Only male Bretonnian nobles can become Grail Knights. The Lady of the Lake is not fooled by disguises."

This isn't even touching on the collective trauma the Lady has inflicted on an entire nation with her abduction of children. Did you know that in Bretonnia children aren't named until the age of three? This is to prevent you from getting attached to the child, because there's always the chance they get taken from you while you're sleeping and you never see them again.

The Lady is awful.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
so the bad version of Brettonia then. Glad we're steering clear of there.

What about Verena and Myrmidia then? One daughter is mistaken to be Shallya's mother and the other is mistaken for her sister?
 
Resonant said:
Sorry, that was obviously a typo. But can you confirm that the name Haleth refers to two distinct Godesses in Tome of Salvation?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm not Codex, but I can field this one, a friend of mine lent me the book when I told him about this recent vote. Haleth is referred to in three places in Tome of Salvation:
  1. Page 13, IC text: "A good example of this is the many Earth Mother cults that can be found throughout our pious Empire, including the minor cults of Dyrath, Haleth, and Hyacinth, which, amongst scholastic circles, are all presumed to be revering Rhya under different guises."
  2. Page 79, in a table labeled Provincial Religions, the Middenland section lists Haleth (Fertility) as a local deity.
  3. Page 81, in a table labeled Other Minor Gods, Haleth is listed twice: with Sphere of Influence Fertility and Location Middenland, and with Sphere of Influence Lady of the Hunt and Location Northern Empire.
So what we have are three mentions of Haleth in relation to Fertility and one mention of Haleth in relation to the Lady of the Hunt. No other gods are listed twice on the Minor Gods table, but there are two mentions of Karnos on the Provincial Religions table on page 79, one for each of Middenland and Talabecland, and the Minor Gods table lists "Tor" (thunder and lightning god worshiped in Kislev) and "Toar" (lightning god worshiped in Talabecland) separately. So I think the primary index in this section is not "god" but rather location.

Taken together, I think that what Tome of Salvation means to say is that Haleth has a localized cult as a fertility deity in Middenland and a more diffuse recognition as a lady of the hunt in the northern Empire, not that there are two gods with the same name.
 
Last edited:
Codex said:
The problem is that the Lady has a great degree of direct control over the Bretonnians and is the most active goddess in the Old World with a representative that she can directly contact (Fey Enchantress) which has shown the ability to literally dethrone a king if she felt like it. The fact that Bretonnian society is like it is is because the Lady is not just fine with it, but actively enforces it.

These are the Lady's scriptures for women:
• Preserve your modesty and innocence.
• Serve and obey your father before marriage, your husband after.
• Succour those who are weak and helpless through no fault of their own.
• Show favour only to the bravest and most noble knights who seek your blessing.

The Lady is the only goddess in all of Warhammer that I know of who has different scriptures for men and women. The scriptures for men are the tenets of chivalry and the vows that knights take.

It should also be noted that Knights of the Grail explicitly disallows any women to become a Grail Knight. Page 96 of Knights of the Grail says this: "Only male Bretonnian nobles can become Grail Knights. The Lady of the Lake is not fooled by disguises."

This isn't even touching on the collective trauma the Lady has inflicted on an entire nation with her abduction of children. Did you know that in Bretonnia children aren't named until the age of three? This is to prevent you from getting attached to the child, because there's always the chance they get taken from you while you're sleeping and you never see them again.

The Lady is awful.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It remains to be seen exactly how much DL! Bretonnia resembles Knights of the Grail.
 
I guess I'd vote for a plan that used the fifth face for the Project, but I wouldn't expect anything to come of it. Hekarti is an Elf Goddess that has existed for millennia before Ranald worship was a thing, and the Hedgefolk Goddess is tied to the Forest of Shadows. Two possibilities out of all the provincial Goddesses in the Old World is not probable.
 
Ultrackius said:
I would caution against accepting the dragon who's name I can't remember's musings as fact. They're obsessed with the idea that all the gods who share aspects must be the same deity in different disguises, which personally I heavily doubt
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Are you thinking of Cython or Deathfang? Because Deathfang is basing much of his musings on having seen the god's power and recognising it.

He didn't decide Ranald was Loec based on them having similar domains, he looked at Ranald's power and recognised it as Loec's power.

Hence when he authoritatively says Isha definitely isn't Rhya I trust that he's basing that on actual knowledge, not speculation.
 
Last edited:
NeonLights said:
I guess I'd vote for a plan that used the fifth face for the Project, but I wouldn't expect anything to come of it. Hekarti is an Elf Goddess that has existed for millennia before Ranald worship was a thing, and the Hedgefolk Goddess is tied to the Forest of Shadows. Two possibilities out of all the provincial Goddesses in the Old World is not probable.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

But not before Loec worship existed, also Ranald is mentioned on a stone that is from the dawn of the world alongside what seems to be Sotek. So 'a god from the Old World' does not seem to be what we are dealing with here.
 
Mopman43 said:
Though, I think the Obernarn was translated from pictograms?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes sure, maybe the translator did a bad job... but then there is that strangely familiar snake god of Nehekara and the familiarity with which the gods of Kislev greeted the supposedly southern Ranald and talked about him running the last time. We have a lot of data points indicating that Ranald is older than the current cult of Ranald. None of them maybe 100% solid, they cannot be, but given how varied the sources are they are quite convincing in aggregate.
 
What if Bretonnian chivalry is what The Lady had been taught her father was like, and they're anti-Ranald because she refuses to disbelieve the deception?
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top