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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Yeah, there's a reason why people are always looking for some kind of explanation as to what the fuck is up with Bretonnia beyond what we're told to take at face value. And that reason is that the Lady spends power blessing Knights and aiding Damsels like crazy with seemingly no cares, which is pretty impressive when literally every other god in the Old World spends most of their time doing nothing even remotely comparable to blessing basically an entire social class.
 
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065tdsa said:
Yeah, there's a reason why people are always looking for some kind of explanation as to what the fuck is up with Bretonnia beyond what we're told to take at face value. And that reason is that the Lady spends power blessing Knights and aiding Damsels like crazy with seemingly no cares, which is pretty impressive when literally every other god in the Old World spends most of their time doing nothing even remotely comparable to blessing basically an entire social class.
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Maybe the social structure of Bretonnia functions as a form of sacrifice that empowers the Lady beyond what she would otherwise be able to do.
 
The Bretonnians have oathed themselves, flesh-to-flesh, to the Lady, making the deepest vow of any still-living kingdoms of men in the Old World or nearby, and in return they have received deep blessings for it.
 
Alternatively, one must wonder what deep well of power the Lady and old gods of Nehekara alike must of sat and supped upon. Is it the faith and dedication of their followers alone, or is there something more?
 
Codex said:
In my endless quest to record little tidbits from each Warhammer source that I'm reading, I've come across a truly staggering amount of educational institutions. I was under the impression there weren't that many institutions if you wanted to get an education, but man... Just look at this:

University of Altdorf
University of Nuln
Imperial School of Engineers
Imperial Gunnery School
Royal Academy of Talabheim
Carroburg College of Oratory
Collegium Theologica (Middenheim)
College of Salzenmund
Diesdorf Military College
Bergo Academy
Baron Henryk's School for Navigation and Sea Magicks
Aquila Academy (branches in Nuln, Carcassonne and Luccini)
University of Kislev
Pavona University
Marienburg Academy of Physicians
Nuln, Altdorf and Praag have music academies and Praag has a College of Art.
Streissen in Averland has a university and medical school
Bernloch Academy of Art, Science and Engineering
And I'm pretty sure there's more. I'm excluding magical academies from this list (Royal Academy and Baron Henryk's are exceptions because they have magic branches not magic schools)

A note, lots of them have great libraries that were mentioned as being prominent. If you're interested in sniping more places for books, there's the following targets:

Great Library of Altdorf (Verena institution)
Temple of Verena in Middenheim
Temple of Verena in Kislev
Library in Bokha Palace
Ancient Library of the Light Order/Other College libraries
Temple of Clio in Carroburg (mostly for advertising their services)
Cathedral of Sigmar/Librarium Secularum
Great Library of Marienburg (hah)
Star Chamber in Marienburg (hah)
Bechafen has remnants of Mordheim's Great Library according to Boney
Fire Spire of Praag might have had some books that weren't completely destroyed
Kislev City's Writer's Room "boasts an extensive library of correspondence that is second to none in its descriptions of the customs, history, superstitions, and legends of the steppe people."
If you're interested in books of Law, the Worshipful Guild of Legalists in Middenheim has records of cases going back 2500 years since the city's founding of almost every case there's ever been in the city.
Finally, there's the Hartshorn Lodge Library of Dark Magic in Marienburg.
Oh, I forgot. Dwarfs have the Archives of Karaz a Karak, Asur have the Library of Lothern and the White Tower of Hoeth, Eonir have the Library of Mournings, Araby has the Sorceror's Islands, Nehekhara's Mortuary Cult has plenty of libraries.

You know, for a world where most of the population is illiterate, there's a lot of libraries and institutes of learning. I thought my job would be easy.
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K8P might have both an easier and harder time than I expected. Easier in that there are many more stores of books to copy then I expected. Harder in that they have real competition for becoming the primer library in the world.
 
fictionfan said:
K8P might have both an easier and harder time than I expected. Easier in that there are many more stores of books to copy then I expected. Harder in that they have real competition for becoming the primer library in the world.
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Given than the elves and dwarfs have their own vast stores of knowledge I do not think it will even be in the running for the world not for a long while. What sets it apart is that its objective is to gather lore from all over the world and present a diverse perspective.
 
DragonParadox said:
Given than the elves and dwarfs have their own vast stores of knowledge I do not think it will even be in the running for the world not for a long while. What sets it apart is that its objective is to gather lore from all over the world and present a diverse perspective.
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Well it is likely to be the biggest public library. All of the other ones tend to have one flavor or another of restricted access.
 
fictionfan said:
K8P might have both an easier and harder time than I expected. Easier in that there are many more stores of books to copy then I expected. Harder in that they have real competition for becoming the primer library in the world.
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Yeah, as DragonParadox said, K8P isn't claiming that title anytime soon. I'm pretty sure the White Tower has it right now, and that's a mile-tall tower.
 
Boney said:
Kind of like how Karak Azul viewed humans until very recently, too.
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I wonder which Human characteristics or stereotypes were most emphasized among Azul Dwarves.

Or even more generally, what kind of tales about Humans circulate in the Karaz Ankor that would be equivalent to those tales about Dwarves and Grudges, like the one with the castle that got razed due to some gold coins in change.
Boney said:
The Elven Gods are metaphors for the many facets of the Elven mind and soul.
The Elven Gods are shorthand for the ideals that Elves strive to reach, and the imperfections with which they must grapple.
The Elven Gods are a creation myth, providing a bevy of just-so stories to understand the many wonders of the natural world and the forces that gave rise to them.
The Elven Gods are mythologized taxonomy, the embodiment of the collective efforts of the Asur to impose order and understanding on an inherently chaotic world.
The Elven Gods are a magical force shaped and empowered by the collective psyche of their worshippers.

The Elven Gods are actual beings that once ran around the place, squabbled with each other, and hit Daemons with swords, and They like it when you do nice things for Them.

Elves believe all of the above to be simultaneously true.
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That sounds less weird than one would think. I think I've heard similar ideas about IRL contemporary polytheism.
Codex said:
In my endless quest to record little tidbits from each Warhammer source that I'm reading, I've come across a truly staggering amount of educational institutions. I was under the impression there weren't that many institutions if you wanted to get an education, but man... Just look at this:

University of Altdorf
University of Nuln
Imperial School of Engineers
Imperial Gunnery School
Royal Academy of Talabheim
Carroburg College of Oratory
Collegium Theologica (Middenheim)
College of Salzenmund
Diesdorf Military College
Bergo Academy
Baron Henryk's School for Navigation and Sea Magicks
Aquila Academy (branches in Nuln, Carcassonne and Luccini)
University of Kislev
Pavona University
Marienburg Academy of Physicians
Nuln, Altdorf and Praag have music academies and Praag has a College of Art.
Streissen in Averland has a university and medical school
Bernloch Academy of Art, Science and Engineering
And I'm pretty sure there's more. I'm excluding magical academies from this list (Royal Academy and Baron Henryk's are exceptions because they have magic branches not magic schools)

A note, lots of them have great libraries that were mentioned as being prominent. If you're interested in sniping more places for books, there's the following targets:

Great Library of Altdorf (Verena institution)
Temple of Verena in Middenheim
Temple of Verena in Kislev
Library in Bokha Palace
Ancient Library of the Light Order/Other College libraries
Temple of Clio in Carroburg (mostly for advertising their services)
Cathedral of Sigmar/Librarium Secularum
Great Library of Marienburg (hah)
Star Chamber in Marienburg (hah)
Bechafen has remnants of Mordheim's Great Library according to Boney
Fire Spire of Praag might have had some books that weren't completely destroyed
Kislev City's Writer's Room "boasts an extensive library of correspondence that is second to none in its descriptions of the customs, history, superstitions, and legends of the steppe people."
If you're interested in books of Law, the Worshipful Guild of Legalists in Middenheim has records of cases going back 2500 years since the city's founding of almost every case there's ever been in the city.
Finally, there's the Hartshorn Lodge Library of Dark Magic in Marienburg.
Oh, I forgot. Dwarfs have the Archives of Karaz a Karak, Asur have the Library of Lothern and the White Tower of Hoeth, Eonir have the Library of Mournings, Araby has the Sorceror's Islands, Nehekhara's Mortuary Cult has plenty of libraries.

You know, for a world where most of the population is illiterate, there's a lot of libraries and institutes of learning. I thought my job would be easy.
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That really doesn't sound like too much to me if one remembers that many provinces were independent and competing polities until relatively recently and that even today they have their own quite powerful autonomous governments with central taxation rights.
 
Rafin said:
I wonder which Human characteristics or stereotypes were most emphasized among Azul Dwarves.

Or even more generally, what kind of tales about Humans circulate in the Karaz Ankor that would be equivalent to those tales about Dwarves and Grudges, like the one with the castle that got razed due to some gold coins in change.
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I imagine there would be one about their forgetfulness, good or bad. (or both)

like, in a way, there must have been a time that a dwarf fighter or trader did something bad in a village at some point. and the next time they are passing through (or their children) they are expecting a very cold welcome/someone getting back at them.

only to find everyone very nice and welcoming, with no sense of ill wishes too see.

(its been a 80-100 years, everyone is dead or moved on or just forgot.)
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I imagine there would be one about their forgetfulness, good or bad. (or both)

like, in a way, there must have been a time that a dwarf fighter or trader did something bad in a village at some point. and the next time they are passing through (or their children) they are expecting a very cold welcome/someone getting back at them.
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Probably not for Azul dwarfs.

They barely had semi-regular contact with Karaz-a-Karak, they definitely weren't doing much trading with the Empire before K8P got reclaimed.

Their contacts with humans would have been adventurers, perhaps a handful of traders wanting to go to Cathay and indirect exposure through the very few Azul dwarfs that managed to visit the wider Karaz Ankor.
 
Rafin said:
That really doesn't sound like too much to me if one remembers that many provinces were independent and competing polities until relatively recently and that even today they have their own quite powerful autonomous governments with central taxation rights.
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I don't think even the Slann would consider two and a half millennia ago recent.
 
Mopman43 said:
I think Rafin was talking about the Age of Three Emperors.
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I wouldn't count them as being independent during that. The provinces split into a number of factions but AFAIK none of them were individual except Sylvania, and that ended poorly, so they don't have any large learning institutes left.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I wouldn't count them as being independent during that. The provinces split into a number of factions but AFAIK none of them were individual except Sylvania, and that ended poorly, so they don't have any large learning institutes left.
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Its not that they claimed being different countries, but that the different competing factions all had their own institutions separate from the others, so when reunification happened there were a lot more of them than would be expected.
 
My current notes on the Time of Three Emperors:

Time of Three Emperors


Drakwald Emperors - 900-1115
----------------------------
Jurgen the Opulent - 900
Ludwig the Fat - ? to 1053
Boris Goldgather - 1053 to 1115


(Mandred Skavenslayer) - 1124-1152


Weak Emperors - 1152 to 1359
----------------------------
Otto of Solland - 1152 to ?


Ottilian Emperors - 1359 to 2304
--------------------------------
Ottilia of Talabecland - 1360 to
Frederik V of Talabecland - 1550
Horst of Talabecland - to 1750
Helmut II of Talabecland - 1750 to
Ottilia III of Talabecland - >2010, <2145
Ottilia IV of Talabecland - 2100


Elected Emperors - 1359 to 1979
-------------------------------
Wilhelm of Stirland - 1359 to 1375
Hjalmar the Tyrannical - 1416
Frederik III - 1448
Dieter III - 1602-1650
Sigismund IV of Altdorf - d. 1705
Maximillian III of Stirland - 1876
Carolus II - 1937
Sigismund IV of Reikland - d. 1979
Ludwig of Reikland - >2010, <2145


Marienburg Emperors - 1979 to ?
-------------------------------
Magritta of Westerland - 1979 to
Helmut of Westerland - to 2100
Helmar of Westerland - 2100 to


Wolf Emperors - 1547 to <2010
-----------------------------
Siegfried of Middenland - 1547 to.
Gerhardt Meister of Middenland - 1707
Mannfred Todbringer - 2000


Reiklander Emperors - 2000ish to 2304
-------------------------------------
Siegfried of Reikland - 2000
Ludwig of Reikland - 2051
Lutwik of Reikland - to 2100
Eberhardt the Just - 2232-2260
Annette - 2260

The name 'Time of Three Emperors' can give the impression that the Empire was divided neatly into three parts, but it was a lot messier than that. Each province might have been effectively independent, either out of necessity, to improve their leverage so they would be better rewarded by the claimant they supported, or to try to put themselves in a position to make a claim for the title themselves. And as a rule, institutions don't just go away when they become redundant, they fight for all their worth to linger for as long as they can while they seek a new justification for the income and status of those who run it.
 
One thing I'll point out; while Magritta of Marienburg was supported by Stirland, Averland and Wissenland (and secretly by the High Order of Honourable Freetraders) for becoming Empress, the Grand Theogonist of the time refused to actually crown her as one. So it could be called a matter of some contention whether she ought to be listed as an Empress, especially given the details of her election are somewhat... ambiguous.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
One thing I'll point out; while Magritta of Marienburg was supported by Stirland, Averland and Wissenland (and secretly by the High Order of Honourable Freetraders) for becoming Empress, the Grand Theogonist of the time refused to actually crown her as one. So it could be called a matter of some contention whether she ought to be listed as an Empress, especially given the details of her election are somewhat... ambiguous.
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Similar arguments can be made for everyone between Mandred and Magnus. That's the entire reason for the thousand years of turmoil.
 
Codex said:
I said I loved the main villain of the book, but that was from a character perspective. Personally I really hate him for doing that. I assume not every Nehekharan did stuff like this since they did trade with K8P at some point.
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Hmm it would be interesting if Mathilde as part of her Waystone investigation ends up quietly visiting Nehekhara and come across Karitamen with Gromril armor that unusually fits him, that he has enslave undead dwarfs with extremely archaic form of Khazalid to his service.
While Tomb Kings are dangerous as hell and Mathilde might not be high enough to defeat Karitamen even she grow in power over time but if she can free him from his tomb in exchange releasing all information the guy have on Waystones, from those archaic dwarfs and letting them go, it could be price worth letting the guy go to rain terror on Nehekhara.

Think Kragg might accept the rune information despite its unsavoury use in the past by dwarfs slaves even if those undead dwarfs were one of the surviving successors of Golden Age Runesmiths soon after its fall or Time of Woes period when they force to flee above ground?
 
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Jrin said:
Hmm it would be interesting if Mathilde as part of her Waystone investigation ends up quietly visiting Nehekhara and come across Karitamen with Gromril armor that unusually fits him, that he has enslave undead dwarfs with extremely archaic form of Khazalid to his service.
While Tomb Kings are dangerous as hell and Mathilde might not be high enough to defeat Karitamen even she grow in power over time but if she can free him from his tomb in exchange releasing all information the guy have on Waystones, from those archaic dwarfs and letting them go, it could be price worth letting the guy go to rain terror on Nehekhara.

Think Kragg might accept the rune information despite its unsavoury use in the past by dwarfs slaves even if those undead dwarfs were one of the surviving successors of Golden Age Runesmiths just after its fall?
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Karitamen is in the Border Princes, not Nehekhara.
 
Jrin said:
Think Kragg might accept the rune information despite its unsavoury use in the past by undead dwarven slaves even if those undead dwarfs were one of the surviving successors of Golden Age Runesmiths just after its fall?
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There's quite a few sizable 'if's in that scenario. First, the possibility of any of those undead dwarf slaves, who are noted as aggressive to all who approach and unable to control that aggression, being in any state to pass along information. Second, the possibility of one of those dwarfs having been a Runesmith in life. Third, that said hypothetical undead Runesmith slave was a Runesmith of the Golden Age, and still managed to get captured by Bronze Age humans, however superhumanly stuffed full of divine magic they might have been.

For your proposed scenario to come about, even beyond Mathilde wandering into the Border Princes and encountering Karitamen, all three would have to be the case, when even one would be pretty astronomical odds to beat.
 
Rafin said:
Or even more generally, what kind of tales about Humans circulate in the Karaz Ankor that would be equivalent to those tales about Dwarves and Grudges, like the one with the castle that got razed due to some gold coins in change.
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I still can't believe that's canonical. The EC of Ostermark loses the dozens of wagonloads of gold they paid, and gets their fortress torn down, over what is functionally pocket change. It's realistic, but the fact that no one so much as threw a gold coin to get the dwarves to leave peacefully boggles the mind.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
There's quite a few sizable 'if's in that scenario. First, the possibility of any of those undead dwarf slaves, who are noted as aggressive to all who approach and unable to control that aggression, being in any state to pass along information. Second, the possibility of one of those dwarfs having been a Runesmith in life. Third, that said hypothetical undead Runesmith slave was a Runesmith of the Golden Age, and still managed to get captured by Bronze Age humans, however superhumanly stuffed full of divine magic they might have been.
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First they still have enough mind to plead for death so Mathilde might just get enough general information on where they hidden their secrets if she offer to give them death, its not like Karitamen going ask his slaves where they kept their goodies.

Second Codex did mention Karitamen have his own Gromril armor with personal features so higher odds there might be a Runesmith in life and undead involve, it might need maintenance every now and then.

Third fair point about the Golden Age Runesmith but their unfortunate successors might have their apprenticeship cut short or weakened from fleeing their ruined hold with only clothes and limited tools could result in their capture.
 
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