Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[deathofrats0808]

Tor Lithanel is arguably the most luxurious city for Elves in the world of Warhammer. The library it contains is twice as old as the Library of Hoeth and it's magical traditions probably run as old. The people of Tor Lithanel get invaded far less often than even the inner cities of Ulthuan. I don't care if you're a genius, you're not gonna surpass the collective ability of 5000 years of magical traditions by yourself.

If your statement is correct and Teclis alone is more competent than the entirety of Laurelorn's magical traditons when he was a teenager, then Laurelorn might be the most pathetic polity in the Warhammer world for wasting the advantage of 5000 years of unbroken magical tradition.

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It's definitely not the most luxurious city. It comes across as a standard Elven city actually. Just small.

He doesn't need to? Like, sure the Library of Mournings might be twice as old as the White Tower, but Ulthuan's magical tradition still stretches back to before the Tower was built. And before the Library was built. And just because the Library is older doesn't mean it's better. The White Tower almost definitely contains more information than the Library, because it's much bigger. And none of that even touches on the fact that just because they may have information on how it could be done doesn't mean anyone could actually do it, or that they wanted to do it at all.

 

[Codex]

It's definitely not the most luxurious city. It comes across as a standard Elven city actually. Just small.

He doesn't need to? Like, sure the Library of Mournings might be twice as old as the White Tower, but Ulthuan's magical tradition still stretches back to before the Tower was built. And before the Library was built. And just because the Library is older doesn't mean it's better. The White Tower almost definitely contains more information than the Library, because it's much bigger. And none of that even touches on the fact that just because they may have information on how it could be done doesn't mean anyone could actually do it, or that they wanted to do it at all.

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Look, the last part is exactly what I'm saying.

They can do it. It's not hard. These guys can definitely solve the problem if they wanted to. It just so happens that anyone who has the resources to solve the problem doesn't want to solve the problem because it's not actually a problem for them. I don't get what you're arguing with me for. Are you trying to say that they literally can't solve the problem if they had the inclination to, or are you agreeing with me that they could solve it but they don't want to, and just arguing with me for the sake of it?

Codex, I hate to break it to you, but that's nothing special. Socially-driven scarcity of housing for urban areas is, uh, basically the default? Since forever?

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Just because it's common doesn't mean I can't say that I find it gross. If we were in the Empire and witnessing the classism that I'm sure exists very prominently there, I would be equally grossed out. It just so happens that one thing is right in front of me and another isn't.

 

[DragonParadox]

It's definitely not the most luxurious city. It comes across as a standard Elven city actually. Just small.

He doesn't need to? Like, sure the Library of Mournings might be twice as old as the White Tower, but Ulthuan's magical tradition still stretches back to before the Tower was built. And before the Library was built. And just because the Library is older doesn't mean it's better. The White Tower almost definitely contains more information than the Library, because it's much bigger. And none of that even touches on the fact that just because they may have information on how it could be done doesn't mean anyone could actually do it, or that they wanted to do it at all.

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Seconding this, I mean one has to keep in mind that Ulthuan just has more population with which to study and innovate. The library of the mornings is impressive because it may have tomes from that dawn of magic when the old ones yet walked the earth, but there has been a long age from then to now and the elves of Ulthuan have been making a study of magic all the while adapting it to the use of elves.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Look, the last part is exactly what I'm saying.

They can do it. It's not hard. These guys can definitely solve the problem if they wanted to. It just so happens that anyone who has the resources to solve the problem doesn't want to solve the problem because it's not actually a problem for them. I don't get what you're arguing with me for. Are you trying to say that they literally can't solve the problem if they had the inclination to, or are you agreeing with me that they could solve it but they don't want to, and just arguing with me for the sake of it?

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I'm saying it's possible they cannot solve it, and it's possible they do not want to solve it by living in a pocket dimension, because they'd hate it.

 

[Rafin]

It's more like that Mathilde did something that did all of:

• earned her a Great Deed
• is classified to hell and back, possibly literally
• caused the greatest deployment of battle mages since the Coming of Chaos

I don't think what exactly she did is known outside of the Grey College and Dragomas.

Oh, and she has earned another Great Deed and no one has even heard a blip of what that one was about, only conspicuous silence.

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Are unpaid Great Deeds even common knowledge like that? Other than the Emperor, the middle men in the hierarchy (Algard and Dragomas in our case) and maybe the Emperor's steward or other select Council members nobody needs to know.

 

[Candesce]

I'm saying it's possible they cannot solve it, and it's possible they do not want to solve it by living in a pocket dimension, because they'd hate it.

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Maybe that's true, but I kind of doubt it, because, well:

Codex, I hate to break it to you, but that's nothing special. Socially-driven scarcity of housing for urban areas is, uh, basically the default? Since forever?

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Most of western civilization has this specific problem.

And while blaming that on society's elites is technically true, "elite" here means "basically anyone who owns a house in the city." Probably includes everyone with a stable and long-standing rental agreement, too.

I'd say it's even less meaningful a commentary on the morals of Laurelorn than pointing out that the Empire has an Emperor is of that polity. Or that the Dwarves have Kings.

 

[ReImagined]

Why the hell didn't they just hire the Grey Lords for space expansion?

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What kind of space expansion? If you mean something like what we've seen of their liminal space, the impression I got was that there would be logistical concerns with supplying a larger presence there, given the limitations on access. If you mean like what Teclis did to Altdorf, perhaps they didn't have enough power to anchor such a large-scale project alongside whatever they need for other purposes, like defense. After all, isn't it a goal of the Waystone Project to generate more power? Sure, it's possible for it to be just politics, but there are plausible reasons for why it hasn't happened beyond malice or incompetence.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Maybe that's true, but I kind of doubt it, because, well:

Most of western civilization has this specific problem.

And while blaming that on society's elites is technically true, "elite" here means "basically anyone who owns a house in the city." Probably includes everyone with a stable and long-standing rental agreement, too.

I'd say it's even less meaningful a commentary on the morals of Laurelorn than pointing out that the Empire has an Emperor is of that polity. Or that the Dwarves have Kings.

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Honestly I suspect that none of the Eonir really want to expand the city. The Forestborn don't want the trees cut down, the Cityborn don't want to put all the time and money into it. Infrastructure projects are pretty much always heavily resisted.

What kind of space expansion? If you mean something like what we've seen of their liminal space, the impression I got was that there would be logistical concerns with supplying a larger presence there, given the limitations on access. If you mean like what Teclis did to Altdorf, perhaps they didn't have enough power to anchor such a large-scale project alongside whatever they need for other purposes, like defense. After all, isn't it a goal of the Waystone Project to generate more power? Sure, it's possible for it to be just politics, but there are plausible reasons for why it hasn't happened beyond malice or incompetence.

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Even if you go with an Altdorf style space you still need to produce food and water to sustain the populace of the space, which might not be feasible for the Eonir.

 

[Codex]

I just finished Lure of the Liche Lord. It was a great book. I absolutely love the main villain of the book. He's evil, but also a complex character that still manages to be sympathetic.

He's also absurdly powerful. No wonder the Tomb Kings were so dominant if their leaders were this absurd. Or maybe he's just exceptional even in comparison to other Tomb Kings. He can read people's surface thoughts, anyone who gets close to him becomes weaker due to his presence, he can dominate people like a Vampire despite not being one, he has no upper limit on range or number of undead. He can see and speak through his undead. He has Magic 4 (highest magic score in WFRP) and knows every traditional Necromancy spell. He can project his conciousness to view outside his tomb and speak to people in their dreams, guiding them to a desired conclusion. And he does all this after being signficantly weakened by Chaos and several limitations nerfing his power.

I sure hope he's unusually powerful for a Tomb King.

Oh, and there was something interesting that kind of shocked me:

The helmet has a peaked top and wings that sweep down on either side to protect the cheeks and jaw. Protective runes are carved around the edges, which are gold and have small ruby studs. The rest of the helm is gromril enamelled to a metallic blue sheen. A sun pattern radiates from the central point, which has a small golden spike. Set above the brow is a large black onyx scarab. The helm's interior is leather covered with a layer of red silk.

Karitamen's distinctive gromril armour is layered with silk, leather, and bronze. The bronze has been enamelled a deep metallic blue with gold relief. The sun, moon, stars, and sacred river ring the breastplate, proclaiming its owner a master of the elements and a significant figure in Nehekharan culture.

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Karitamen has Gromril armor. I was initially shocked, but then I remembered something:

Anyone who actually attempts to talk with the Undead Dwarfs discovers they speak an extremely archaic form of Khazalid. They are incapable of stopping themselves from attacking, for the magic animating their corpses is beyond their will. They plead for a quick death and for their names to go unrecorded, for their beards were shaved before they were yoked to the sedan chair.

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I said I loved the main villain of the book, but that was from a character perspective. Personally I really hate him for doing that. I assume not every Nehekharan did stuff like this since they did trade with K8P at some point.

 

[DragonParadox]

I just finished Lure of the Liche Lord. It was a great book. I absolutely love the main villain of the book. He's evil, but also a complex character that still manages to be sympathetic.

He's also absurdly powerful. No wonder the Tomb Kings were so dominant if their leaders were this absurd. Or maybe he's just exceptional even in comparison to other Tomb Kings. He can read people's surface thoughts, anyone who gets close to him becomes weaker due to his presence, he can dominate people like a Vampire despite not being one, he has no upper limit on range or number of undead. He can see and speak through his undead. He has Magic 4 (highest magic score in WFRP) and knows every traditional Necromancy spell. He can project his conciousness to view outside his tomb and speak to people in their dreams, guiding them to a desired conclusion. And he does all this after being signficantly weakened by Chaos and several limitations nerfing his power.

I sure hope he's unusually powerful for a Tomb King.

Oh, and there was something interesting that kind of shocked me:



Karitamen has Gromril armor. I was initially shocked, but then I remembered something:

I said I loved the main villain of the book, but that was from a character perspective. Personally I really hate him for doing that. I assume not every Nehekharan did stuff like this since they did trade with K8P at some point.

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Tomb Kings are a lot more powerful in death then they were in life, they are also broadly speaking more evil, since you know undead mockeries of life, bereft of all its pleasures and filled with nothing but hate and pride.

 

[Sir_Travelsalot]

Tomb Kings are a lot more powerful in death then they were in life, they are also broadly speaking more evil, since you know undead mockeries of life, bereft of all its pleasures and filled with nothing but hate and pride.

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Yes, but Karitamen has been trapped in his tomb since the days he had flesh. Meaning he got the Gromril armour and shaved dwarf slaves pulling his chariot while he was still up and about in the world of the living.

 

[Codex]

Tomb Kings are a lot more powerful in death then they were in life, they are also broadly speaking more evil, since you know undead mockeries of life, bereft of all its pleasures and filled with nothing but hate and pride.

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Not... exactly. Karitamen is evil, but he is not filled with nothing but hate and pride. He is capable of a wide range of emotions and dispositions, and can even be a likable person who wouldn't do evil shit for the sake of evil. The Mortuary Cult had rituals that didn't directly invoke Dhar, so the Tomb Kings are not nearly as bad as your average Vampire or undead.

That being said, Nehekharan society was brutal and had many evil aspects to it. Karitamen is very similar to who he was in life, but who he was in life was a tyrant, so that didn't change. He's just more patient than he used to be, that's the biggest difference.

You can acknowledge that someone's evil while also recognising that there's more to them than that. That doesn't mean he's a good guy or deserving of trust, but he is capable of love. He still likes Tetrahon and holds love towards his late wife and children and will get mad at you for disturbing their graves and killing his friend.

 

[Codex]

I'll let the book itself speak for me. I don't fully agree with it, but these are the words of the person who made Karitamen:

The Death Scarab does hunger for revenge, certainly. And he plots to kill the region's current rulers and take their place. But those are normal Human emotions, and many men have had the same goals. And Karitamen's larger goals are not necessarily evil. They are not malevolent, certainly. He is not eager to cause pain (except to those he feels wronged him). He does not want to kill everyone. He wants to rule them, to unite them, to protect them, and make them happy. How is that evil?

As GM, you should definitely consider these questions when figuring out what Karitamen might do, as well as when roleplaying the Liche Lord if the characters encounter him. Most people assume Undead are mindless, soulless creatures who want nothing more than to destroy all life around them and who attack savagely, fuelled by rage and dark magic. Except for dark magic and the rage, none of that describes Karitamen. He does not fit the standard image, and he should not be treated as if he did. Characters may find themselves agreeing with Karitamen's goals, even liking him if they meet under civil terms. What could be more surprising, and in its own quiet way more chilling, than to encounter a Liche and discover he is the sympathetic one in the situation?

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[DragonParadox]

Not... exactly. Karitamen is evil, but he is not filled with nothing but hate and pride. He is capable of a wide range of emotions and dispositions, and can even be a likable person who wouldn't do evil shit for the sake of evil. The Mortuary Cult had rituals that didn't directly invoke Dhar, so the Tomb Kings are not nearly as bad as your average Vampire or undead.

That being said, Nehekharan society was brutal and had many evil aspects to it. Karitamen is very similar to who he was in life, but who he was in life was a tyrant, so that didn't change. He's just more patient than he used to be, that's the biggest difference.

You can acknowledge that someone's evil while also recognising that there's more to them than that. That doesn't mean he's a good guy or deserving of trust, but he is capable of love. He still likes Tetrahon and holds love towards his late wife and children and will get mad at you for disturbing their graves and killing his friend.

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Yeah the original rituals did not involve Dhar, but those rituals are not the whole story for why the Tomb Kings are out and about. They kept the bodies fresh. the souls from moving on, but what animates the Tomb Kings is the same curse that killed Nehekara, the one that Nagash made to enslave them all and then failed halfway. He certainly used Dhar.

That said the Priest Kings of old certainly were not above evil, being that they were absolute despots in a society that practiced mass human sacrifice.

 

[Codex]

Yeah the original rituals did not involve Dhar, but those rituals are not the whole story for why the Tomb Kings are out and about. They kept the bodies fresh. the souls from moving on, but what animates the Tomb Kings is the same curse that killed Nehekara, the one that Nagash made to enslave them all and then failed halfway. He certainly used Dhar.

That said the Priest Kings of old certainly were not above evil, being that they were absolute despots in a society that practiced mass human sacrifice.

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I've read the book. It explicitly says that while Nagash's curse animated everything, the rituals that were placed on all the undead meant they retained their memories, personalities and with Nagash's death, their free will. They're not standard undead.

This isn't to say that Karitamen's not an evil tyrant, but I object to the severe oversimplification of "creature incapable of feeling anything but hate and pride". There is more to Karitamen and that's what makes him interesting as a villain. Stripping him of free will by saying that his nature is to be evil makes him far less interesting. You can be evil and still have other aspects that aren't related to that evil.

 

[DragonParadox]

I've read the book. It explicitly says that while Nagash's curse animated everything, the rituals that were placed on all the undead meant they retained their memories, personalities and with Nagash's death, their free will. They're not standard undead.

This isn't to say that Karitamen's not an evil tyrant, but I object to the severe oversimplification of "creature incapable of feeling anything but hate and pride". There is more to Karitamen and that's what makes him interesting as a villain. Stripping him of free will by saying that his nature is to be evil makes him far less interesting. You can be evil and still have other aspects that aren't related to that evil.

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They are not standard undead, but they still are not what the Mortuary Cult intended, they are powered in some part by the curse which was Dhar. Dhar does not mean they are mindless beasts, after all vampires are all Dhar and they certainly have their own will and even sympathetic motivations, but the fact that there is Dhar mixed in with the works of the Mortuary Cult Means that the stuff is eating at them, pushing them into a direction that is aligned with its nature. So yeah only hate and pride is an oversimplification you are right, but he is tending that way in the way a living man would not be unless they had Dhar poisoning.

 

[Codex]

They are not standard undead, but they still are not what the Mortuary Cult intended, they are powered in some part by the curse which was Dhar. Dhar does not mean they are mindless beasts, after all vampires are all Dhar and they certainly have their own will and even sympathetic motivations, but the fact that there is Dhar mixed in with the works of the Mortuary Cult Means that the stuff is eating at them, pushing them into a direction that is aligned with its nature. So yeah only hate and pride is an oversimplification you are right, but he is tending that way in the way a living man would not be unless they had Dhar poisoning.

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I agree with this actually. It does seem that they lean that way.

A point of order though. Not every Tomb King was awakened by Nagash's curse. Settra at least was insulated by his pyramid's wards and awakened by Khatep, so there should be no Dhar poisoning involved with him at all.

That being said, Dhar poisoning isn't necessary for Settra to be a goddamn nuisance. He's plenty ambitious enough to cause trouble without excusing it with Dhar making him evil.

 

[DragonParadox]

I agree with this actually. It does seem that they lean that way.

A point of order though. Not every Tomb King was awakened by Nagash's curse. Settra at least was insulated by his pyramid's wards and awakened by Khatep, so there should be no Dhar poisoning involved with him at all.

That being said, Dhar poisoning isn't necessary for Settra to be a goddamn nuisance. He's plenty ambitious enough to cause trouble without excusing it with Dhar making him evil.

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Well he was indeed awakened by Khatep, but not by doing more than letting the wards down so the curse could seep into his resting place from what I recall. So Setra is in the same boat as the rest of them, though I suspect his will is rather more resistant to any warping than most.

 

[Mopman43]

I just finished Lure of the Liche Lord. It was a great book. I absolutely love the main villain of the book. He's evil, but also a complex character that still manages to be sympathetic.

He's also absurdly powerful. No wonder the Tomb Kings were so dominant if their leaders were this absurd. Or maybe he's just exceptional even in comparison to other Tomb Kings. He can read people's surface thoughts, anyone who gets close to him becomes weaker due to his presence, he can dominate people like a Vampire despite not being one, he has no upper limit on range or number of undead. He can see and speak through his undead. He has Magic 4 (highest magic score in WFRP) and knows every traditional Necromancy spell. He can project his conciousness to view outside his tomb and speak to people in their dreams, guiding them to a desired conclusion. And he does all this after being signficantly weakened by Chaos and several limitations nerfing his power.

I sure hope he's unusually powerful for a Tomb King.

Oh, and there was something interesting that kind of shocked me:



Karitamen has Gromril armor. I was initially shocked, but then I remembered something:

I said I loved the main villain of the book, but that was from a character perspective. Personally I really hate him for doing that. I assume not every Nehekharan did stuff like this since they did trade with K8P at some point.

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A Tomb King using Necromancy isn't exactly standard. Hell, an actual Tomb King* using magic period isn't something you'd generally see.

*Apart from Settra.

 

[Codex]

Well he was indeed awakened by Khatep, but not by doing more than letting the wards down so the curse could seep into his resting place from what I recall. So Setra is in the same boat as the rest of them, though I suspect his will is rather more resistant to any warping than most.

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I just read the book to confirm. The exact wording is "Broke the seal to his tomb and began to recite the Incantation of Awakening". I should mention Nagash was already dead by this point and Khatep was already there. I would be disappointed in Khatep if he couldn't ensure that Nagash's curse couldn't seep into Settra when he's strong enough to counterspell Slann in combat.

 

[storryeater]

He has Magic 4 (highest magic score in WFRP)

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Huh. Wasn't 1 point of our magic score worth half that of WHRP's score? if we are generous and assume he had a half point more due to being a [big shot]... then we have about the same magic stat as that scary guy.

 

[Codex]

Huh. Wasn't 1 point of our magic score worth half that of WHRP's score? if we are generous and assume he had a half point more due to being a [big shot]... then we have about the same magic stat as that scary guy.

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Well, magical score isn't the only defining factor when it comes to magic combat. As high of a magic score as Mathilde has, and her Learning score is very high on top of that, she barely has access to any Battle Magic spells. Her magical power isn't the focus of her abilities.

In terms of sheer versatility and magical spells/abilities, Karitamen has her beat. She might be able to match him if she gave up her scruples and went full necromancer, but you know... that involves becoming a necromancer.

 

[LightLan]

In terms of sheer versatility and magical spells/abilities, Karitamen has her beat. She might be able to match him if she gave up her scruples and went full necromancer, but you know... that involves becoming a necromancer.

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I am not so sure about that, Mathilde has +20 boni against necromancer and +10 against Dhar users in general, which stack for +30.

While he knows more spells than her, he is also the sort of enemy she is specced for taking down. He'll likely get counterspelled and then sworded to death or eat an induced miscast and whatever's left from that eats the sword then.

Necromancers in general are the wrong type of enemy to bring Mathilde trouble.

 

[Boney]

The Grey Lords didn't create their own bespoke pocket realm, they live within Laurelorn's Dreaming Wood, which predates them, is unreliably accessible, and is apparently quite prone to inducing Kafka dreams in those that eat of its fruits or sleep too close to its portals. Athel Loren has a Dreaming Wood too, except its inhabitants are rather less community-minded.

Sorry, I'm confused about Cromarc here. Cromarc is the Fan-Eltharin word for heath, as in the shrubby landscapes with bad soil that get mentioned in Act 1 Scene 1 of Macbeth, according to the Lexicanum. What does that have to do with benevolent protective energies or small fires? A hearth seems like it would fit the bill for both, but that's a different word, unless I'm missing something important about Wood Elf culture (which I very well might).

(I'm sorry, but I love puns and I love being pedantic, and the opportunity to combine these interests comes up less often than you'd think.)

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Yeah, that would be me misreading it as 'hearth'. Though I suppose it still generally works, as heathland is characterized by life that manages to thrive despite harsh conditions.

 

[Codex]

I am not so sure about that, Mathilde has +20 boni against necromancer and +10 against Dhar users in general, which stack for +30.

While he knows more spells than her, he is also the sort of enemy she is specced for taking down. He'll likely get counterspelled and then sworded to death or eat an induced miscast and whatever's left from that eats the sword then.

Necromancers in general are the wrong type of enemy to bring Mathilde trouble.

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Karitamen doesn't cast spells unless he really needs to. He's a warrior first and a necromancer second. He fights with his swords and disdains using magic in battle unless he has to, reserving magic for outside battle.

Remember our fight against Alkharad? Imagine that, but on steroids. Karitamen makes Alkharad look like a joke, because Karitamen is far more specced towards combat than a Necrarch is.