Alaric was also a legend in his own right - one of the best Runelords ever, likely as far from the average in his time as Kragg is now.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
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Seems pretty impossible to me.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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Couple of points here, first, we don't know any Dwarf has the knowledge or skill to recreate the Master Rune of Alaric the Mad, and second, knowledge of this one particular Rune doesn't necessarily indicate Alaric taught it. It could have been rediscovered or reverse engineered after he was dead.
Actually, that's the one target you can't rely on a Runefang for. Or any weapon. The Armour of Morkar is some bullshit.
According to tabletop Master rune of Alarik the Mad is available on the list of weapon runes. This to me indicates that either it can still be created or that Alarik made so many of the weapons with his master rune, that they are still relatively common over 2000 years after his death. What dwarves of today can not replicate are Runefangs, but those seem to bear more then just Alarik's rune. Tabletop wise for example Runefangs have 2 effects. They ignore armor saves and they wound automatically. Alaric's rune does the former but has no effect on the latter.
Edit: I checked the wiki and according to the article on Alaric study of his rune "has become a popular subject amongst Runelords ever since" with 4th, 6th and 7th army books cited as sources. Can not check myself right now unfortunately
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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The tabletop runes selection doesn't, to my knowledge, mean the Runesmiths of the modern day can recreate the Rune used. It just means the Rune exists an a number of items that the Dwarfs possess. It's also worth noting that the Rune predates Alaric, so any number of the artefacts bearing it could too. Indeed, according to the War of the Beard/Vengeance two parter from White Dwarf, at that time the Master Rune of Alaric the Mad was so common it didn't even count as a Master Rune.
Not to mention, as I said, later Runesmiths could have worked out how the Rune was crafted without being taught. That's basically what Thorek has spent most of his life doing, discovering old runes treasures and then working out how the Runes inscribed on them were forged.
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You quoted just as i was editing, but wiki claims thst the study of the rune is a popular subject, citing multple army books. If the quote is correct, the rune was taught.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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The quote is correct, although it's from White Dwarf #314 (also listed as a source) rather than any of the Army Books (which all say the same thing, Alaric crafted the Runefangs and then disappeared but might have worked on rune weapons for the Khan-Queens of Kislev). That the Rune is studied doesn't mean Alaric taught it though. Actually I find it pretty likely he didn't, he's noted as having been obsessive and secretive beyond even your average Runesmith.
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I don't think there is any debate to be had if Moonlight Wit is better at cutting than a Runefang. That's not a debate. A Runefang is the "cut anything sword". That's what it does. But that's all it does.
So yes, I do think Mat's blade is in the same weight category as a Runefang. While some extreme examples can block Moonlight Wit, you know what happens to runefangs that can't to our blade? The other side healing after a blow due to artifacts with healing. Or avoiding follow up attacks due to illusion cloaks and stuff like that.
I don't think Kragg bangged it out over a couple of years. I think it took him as long as it did Alarick to invent his Master Rune. But once invented, application is far shorter. The other thing is that we don't know if the Runefangs are made from refined Gromril, or Grimril, and how long that would have taken if so.
We do know Kragg would have prefered to have made it over decades of time, with hammers by the hundreds used in the making. He just couldn't, so he didn't. Probably because it was a reward for an individual, not an institution.
Now that's an actually useful quote instead of an opinion. Thanks. So not completely impossible, but due to Kragg's own perfect standards, wildly improbable, beyond standard Runelord worthiness issues.
Then again, when making the sword we see Kragg make imperfect runes,(the protection from fire he hands the other dwarf) even if this annoys him. So he can bend, when necessary. But it takes a lot to make him bend even that much. He has never been given a good enough reason to bend on the matter of his own apprentices. So it would probably take something like a direct order from the High King, and said order would have to have a bloody good reason for it, before Kragg unbends to take a less than perfect apprentice.
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When making the sword he was pressed by external limitations. Mathilde was a human and therefore would (as far as he knew) die of old age before she could get a proper sword. An order from the high king is not on the same level, not least because the high king has no authority over him when it comes to his own craft.
More to the point though this is not about Kragg, for all he knows Kragg is only one dwarf. the issue all the other runelords who are imitating him and thus destroying the very craft they are supposed to champion. There is no solution to a pernicious guild culture other than to destroy its moral foundation. The elders of the guild must be shown to be wrong in hoarding runes and for that they must be shamed.
Kragg himself may be quite above censure even internally, but the rest of them are not
Fair enough. The thing is though, if anything it shows why the runesmiths are in decline. They refuse to teach and so every generation down the line is less skilled and knowledable then their mentors, unless they put on time amd effort to catch up by independent studies of thing they should have been taught, leaving them with less time to create new stuff or teach apprentices of their own. Yet again we see the feedback loop that strangles the Runesmithing into oblivion
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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Well, that's not just the Runesmiths. That's sort of a theme in Warhammer as a whole. Order declines and Destruction grows in strength, how long can Order hold the line. GW love the image of grand societies brought to ruin. It's why it's a constantly repeated motif throughout all of Warhammer.
Perhaps, but that's Doylist explanation, one we are no longer shackled to. Whereas mine is Watsonian and something that we could affect through our character's actions. Hence the support for Thorek. He can change things and since someone comptent is writing as opposed to GW his efforts are not doomed from the get go
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Not completely impossible only in the sense that it's not completely impossible that Thungni will ascend from the Glittering Realm and tell Kragg that a prospective apprentice is worthy. (As Kragg generally doesn't take applications from apprentices.)
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Personally I think we can leave the specific machinations of the Runesmith Guild to its members.
So its just support Thorek, who we know, respect and trust...or support nobody, because Kragg can't be bothered with wasting time on politics when he could be researching his thousand year long backlog.
Kragg would only disapprove of Thorek so much as his doing anything other than perfecting his craft would. I don't think he'd disagree on the need for Runelords to go DO things, after all, thats what he does
Now why would Runelords go Slayer?
Straightforward guilt, for those who specifically voted against giving Dum succor. There are few worse forms of guilt in a dwarf than being directly complicit in leading a Hold to be lost, and they have probably spent a long time rationalizing that it wasn't REALLY their fault or that they were already corrupt from the start.
For them, there is no way to make up for it. Dum is lost, and in one of the worst ways. They cannot retake it in their lifetimes.
This does not extend to any Runelord who was just uninvolved in that decision by reason of youth or political isolation. Nor does it extend to those who would simply dismiss the testimony as relevant and truthful.
On our part...we've signed up to a game where we have no cards to play, when the elves believe we have the Dwarves for sure and the Colleges for maybe.
This is getting the cards we are believed to hold. We need a full commitment, and having the runesmiths on board lets us play for more cards with other factions.
Its a remarkably well timed gamble, that Azul is ready and passionate enough to deal when the best we could normally hope for is a handful of radicals. To have a Runelord and his branch of the Guild on board is beyond our imaginations at the time.
So its just support Thorek, who we know, respect and trust...or support nobody, because Kragg can't be bothered with wasting time on politics when he could be researching his thousand year long backlog.
Kragg would only disapprove of Thorek so much as his doing anything other than perfecting his craft would. I don't think he'd disagree on the need for Runelords to go DO things, after all, thats what he does
Now why would Runelords go Slayer?
Straightforward guilt, for those who specifically voted against giving Dum succor. There are few worse forms of guilt in a dwarf than being directly complicit in leading a Hold to be lost, and they have probably spent a long time rationalizing that it wasn't REALLY their fault or that they were already corrupt from the start.
For them, there is no way to make up for it. Dum is lost, and in one of the worst ways. They cannot retake it in their lifetimes.
This does not extend to any Runelord who was just uninvolved in that decision by reason of youth or political isolation. Nor does it extend to those who would simply dismiss the testimony as relevant and truthful.
On our part...we've signed up to a game where we have no cards to play, when the elves believe we have the Dwarves for sure and the Colleges for maybe.
This is getting the cards we are believed to hold. We need a full commitment, and having the runesmiths on board lets us play for more cards with other factions.
Its a remarkably well timed gamble, that Azul is ready and passionate enough to deal when the best we could normally hope for is a handful of radicals. To have a Runelord and his branch of the Guild on board is beyond our imaginations at the time.
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- Finland
Wonder if Ranald would be willing to deliver a letter?
Sure, but the letter he delivers will only have the signature and handwriting in common with with the one we hand him.
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- Finland
We need a more reliable divine postal service.
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- New Brunswick, NJ
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Another Boneypost:
(I should note that while it's dwarves specifically that are under discussion, in my experience this is true for a lot of real-life people who are neurodivergent and/or mentally ill. It certainly seems to be true for me.)
Extremes in mental state are often linked. The Kragg whose standards aren't totally beyond reason is also a Kragg who is unable to achieve greatness totally beyond compare. "Why can't you just have the good parts of your extreme personality" is an incoherent question in this respect: it's not just that they're two sides of the same coin, they're often the same side of the coin, because behavior that is extremely useful and praiseworthy in some contexts can, in other contexts, be extremely maladaptive and problematic without changing anything about the behavior itself.
(I should note that while it's dwarves specifically that are under discussion, in my experience this is true for a lot of real-life people who are neurodivergent and/or mentally ill. It certainly seems to be true for me.)
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Well obviously what we do is get a bunch of goats and paint the letter on them then fire the eye of Gazul on the herd. He can then pass the message on to Thungni.
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- Utrecht
Nah... We make a new superweapon... Call it the eye of Thungni
Then attract a waagh to it, and use the divine attention to send a direct message
And now I can't help but wonder if this would actually work.
At least in the sense of getting Gazul to read the letter, no guarantee he would pass it on, of course.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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I mean, I'm not so certain on that, the two are noted to not get along at all.
Codex
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This is the description we got of their dynamic:
There are a few other interactions between them. Thorek clucking over the cracks in Kragg's Anvil and Kragg conceding that he is more experienced with the Anvils, the two discussing methods of digging the greenskins out of the Caldera as equals and Kragg telling him to hear Mathilde out, and Thorek going ballistic over Kragg's decision to do the Rune of Superior Skill.
Yeah sure that last one was pretty bad, but Thorek seems to have gotten over it. He's not spending time dwelling over it. They might not like each other in a comraderly friendship way, but I'm quite certain Thorek holds a level of respect for him and even Kragg is forced to admit that there are areas that Thorek might be better than him at.