Retainers are not helpful for the same reason our hammerer escorts rarely got to do much - they can't keep up and if they can, they can't sneak when we need to sneak. Independent actions would require management AP we don't have.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
If we're metagaming, it's almost certainly meant for a Skink.
Saurus are a good bit bigger than humans.
dinomannitro6
all your gender is belong to us
- Location
- The Land Where The Sunflowers Bloom
The most important reason why we shouldn't put the arm on Johan: It would cause creators of memes with him in them to have to do more work due to having to edit a reptile arm onto him. 
Guile
Having a really great time right now
I'm not saying he's a saboteur for the Ruinous Powers.
I'm saying that he's the kind of person who, when Tzeentch whispered sweet nothings to him in another time-line, said 'Well I don't know how that works but it's probably fine' and 'I can work around this.'
He's probably even more YOLO than Johann, he just hides it better.
Except that DL Egrimm isn't like that because he has a completely different backstory to the canon version.
You can't judge someone because of something a different person did in a completely different story.
going to be honest with you noliar: a provocative and passionate argument is not the same as a good argument.
you don't want Johann to get the arm, fine and fair: but instead of coming up with good IC reason its a bad idea, you're trying to run a narrative of it being a moral/ethic/friendship wrong for the characters to use Johann: but that narrative falls flat because we are talking about Wizards being wizards.
Johann is a transhumanist, Mathy has not yet tied Apparitions to her soul only because she doesn't have the time because she is currently testing literal magic mushrooms on herself and her girlfriend, and all of them are part of a group that literally learn magic by stuffing enough of it into themself to mutate in the right way instead of the wrong way.
risky self-experimentation with a non-insignificant chance of death is a standard of mad scientists and they are all mad scientists from a culture of mad science.
if Johann dies, none of them will think it was the wrong decision, just an unfortunate and sad danger of the job.
agree or not (IRL I very much disagree with this shit) but that's their outlook on the topic.
You're trying to champion a taboo that the characters don't have as a taboo.
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- Location
- Earth
Something I missed the first time around: The vote wasn't to recruit Runelords, it was to recruit Runelords from Karak Azul. Thorek was pre-chosen by vote, not Mat. Looking at it all, if Mat supports Thorek, and he is successful, multiple Runelords will go Slayer. That is a bad bad thing. So why are we trying this with Thorek?
This should have gone to Zulfbar Runelords. Zulfbar is the hold with a reputation for being practical.
[X] [THOREK] Neither
This bugger is the wrong man to do it. He misses the part about dwarven oath solvers, and would try to force the issue. In his own words, he wants to break the runesmiths guild, before reforging it. Consider what a handful less Runelords means for the whole Karaz Ankor, in the time it takes for Thorek to finish his "reforging" Training a new Runelord is the work of decades. If the issue is to be adressed, it should be adressed by a professional in dwarven diplo,oaths and Slayers, not Thorek.
IE: Thorek is far too used to being the greatest, sole authority on rune matters and is about to bull-in-a-china shop other runelords, each of which is a precious resource.
This should have gone to Zulfbar Runelords. Zulfbar is the hold with a reputation for being practical.
[X] [THOREK] Neither
This bugger is the wrong man to do it. He misses the part about dwarven oath solvers, and would try to force the issue. In his own words, he wants to break the runesmiths guild, before reforging it. Consider what a handful less Runelords means for the whole Karaz Ankor, in the time it takes for Thorek to finish his "reforging" Training a new Runelord is the work of decades. If the issue is to be adressed, it should be adressed by a professional in dwarven diplo,oaths and Slayers, not Thorek.
IE: Thorek is far too used to being the greatest, sole authority on rune matters and is about to bull-in-a-china shop other runelords, each of which is a precious resource.
- Location
- Finland
Thorek is going to try, and probably succeed, anyway.
We are just giving him a tool to do it more efficiently, and hopefully with less fallout in the long run.
Thorek is neither stupid or suicidal, he does not want to destroy the guild, only change it to better serve Karaz Ankor.
We are just giving him a tool to do it more efficiently, and hopefully with less fallout in the long run.
Thorek is neither stupid or suicidal, he does not want to destroy the guild, only change it to better serve Karaz Ankor.
I'm hesitant to "take everything" but we came *to play ball* so we're going to have to play ball. I don't think The Mysteries of The Stones will unravel for anything less.
[x] [ARM] Johann
[x] [THOREK] Both
rip friendship with kragg, thorek is our new best friend.
[x] [ARM] Johann
[x] [THOREK] Both
rip friendship with kragg, thorek is our new best friend.
OK so let's take as a given that some runelords, or at least runesmiths will go slayer, if I may ask a heretical question, so what?
*pause for horror and outrage at the very notion*
Seriously though we know the art of forging runes is dying, the dwarfs now know less than their fathers who know less than their grandfathers and so on and so on until the Time of Woe. Thorek is not wrong you know, they are hoarding runes onto their own destruction and the loss of the very art they are trying to champion. If no reform is made the Runesmiths' guild will wither and die eventually to be supplanted by the engineers. If some of the current crop of wanabe Kraggs have to commit culturally sanctioned suicide for reform to happen it is still better than the status quo.
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If runelords go slayer because of Thoreks ideals and ambitions, then quite frankly I don't want them anywhere near the waystones. In order for a runelord to feel enough shame that the only option for redemption is ritual suicide, then that means they are either lazy, incompetent, corrupt or all three, and whilst I strongly disagree with ritual suicide as a method of redemption, any such runelord that removes themselves from the guild will only benefit the culture of the Karas Ankor in the long run.
Thorek is not stupid. He is an intelligent dwarf highly aware of the type of people he will be dealing with, and how far he can push them before they break. He aims to make the Guild stronger than it was, not slaughter it.
Also, Zhufbar has a reputation as engineers, not runesmiths. You might be thinking of Barak Var, who were the compromise candidates for the founding of Karak Eight Peaks' runesmiths guild and potential overseers of the Waystone project had we chosen to base it in K8P.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
How sure are you of that?
As far as I was aware, this isn't like Endtimes material, Egrimm is from Realm of Sorcery. The name for that story is traditionally called 'canon.'
Not necessarily DL canon of course, but I presume his character is at least close enough to have some overlap, if not his actions.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Boney outright said he's done a roll on whether Egrimm is actually a cultist or not though, so it's literally up in the air whether he's gone crazy or not, and whilst not sure, if he is evil he's hiding it very well, since it feels like he'd have slipped up a little yet.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
If the Runelords die without passing on their knowledge, the knowledge is lost as surely as if they all go Slayer at once. At least Thorek's way, Runesmithing might recover instead of dying out entirely.
And of course, this presupposes that they all agree to go Slayer, instead of it being a long-running argument where they get politically more and more sidelined, which seems more likely.
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Because Boney has repeatedly said so?
The most defining moment of canon Egrimm's life was when Alric ritually fed his sister to a pit of snakes, turning him against the Light Order and giving Chaos an opportunity to corrupt him.
That never happened in DL canon because, to quote Boney:
Because that never happened, DL Egrimm has grown up to become a different person.
Is Egrimm still a little bit suspicious? Yeah, a little. He has an intense dislike of both Alric and authority, which originates back to a botched exorcism Alric conducted that killed everyone in Egrimm's choir and has been reinforced over the years by Alrics poor leadership skills.
Is he a malevolent Chaos cultist who has turned against the Empire? I strongly believe he isn't.
One could make the argument that so many will go Slayer to quickly that it will in the short term be worse that the slow decline of the guild into oblivion, but I do not think runesmiths are lemmings. Hell even if they are the decision on Dum, which Thorek is using as a wedge, was only ever the responsibility of the anti-Dum runelords not ordinary runesmiths.
I still can't believe that the "price" for Thorek's full committal to the project was "Reinvent the Runesmith Guild to better fit thread sensibilities" and "Adventure to a lost karak for ancient secrets" resulting in one of the more lopsided votes I've ever witnessed. I suppose technically he isn't even asking for Mathilde to go with him to explore Ghumzul, just get the information to open it, but I don't really see the thread passing that up if the opportunity arises and there's no crisis going on.
I think Thorek is going to be very surprised by how quickly and enthusiastically Mathilde agrees.
I think Thorek is going to be very surprised by how quickly and enthusiastically Mathilde agrees.
Get used to this for the following arc: politics are the top dogs making deals with themselves, at the benefit of everyone or no one or just them.
we wanted the Runesmiths of Azul? that means getting Thorek on board, and getting Thorek on board is Thorek getting at least some of his agenda. because we were not going to get any the runesmiths from Azul without his say so.
Whats this? no argument about him being better or that he won't send people slayer etc etc 'it's actually a good thing we aren't doing anything wrong'... etc etc.
that's because I'm not a hypocrite.
whatever the choice we make here, it has nothing to do with the long term good or bad of the runesmiths: its all about the long term good and bad of the waystone project.
its us cutting a deal with him to get what we want. the details is just how much damage to others (imperial dwarfs/other runelords) is our goal (waystones) worth to us, or how much it might make future deals more tricky.
I hope that Thorek in change will be a good thing in the long run, even hopeful it will be so.
but I'm not lying to myself: my vote is me deciding that any fallout (the runesmiths in slight civil will/ angry imperial dwarfs and Middenheim) is less of a negative than getting the best runesmith we will likely get on board will be positive.
that's the game: don't be surprised if every other group we go to doesn't ask for something that will help everyone in the group, but its just the boss cutting a deal, sometimes even at the expense of their group (e.g... leader of cult x agreeing to help if we murder their, actually very nice and good, rival.)
Again: its likely that part of this arc is about figuring out how much damage to other things is the waystones worth.
- Location
- Earth
No, he won't be, because Mathilde will be feigning reluctance
- Location
- Earth
Not really, he's noted as being a political animal. He's going to change it in a way he thinks is better. Which includes multiple Slayer Runelords. This is obviously bad. I don't understand how people can say it's not.
OK so let's take as a given that some runelords, or at least runesmiths will go slayer, if I may ask a heretical question, so what?
*pause for horror and outrage at the very notion*
Seriously though we know the art of forging runes is dying, the dwarfs now know less than their fathers who know less than their grandfathers and so on and so on until the Time of Woe. Thorek is not wrong you know, they are hoarding runes onto their own destruction and the loss of the very art they are trying to champion. If no reform is made the Runesmiths' guild will wither and die eventually to be supplanted by the engineers. If some of the current crop of wanabe Kraggs have to commit culturally sanctioned suicide for reform to happen it is still better than the status quo.
Look, these all run together and seem to say the same thing: It's Thorek or the Runelords not sharing. But those are not the only options at all. The optimal solution isn't getting more runelords to die without passing on their secrets in the hope that new ones will be better about it, it's to get the Runelords not passing their secrets to pass them on, not lose even their knowledge as well.
This should be obvious. The best thing for the Karaz Ankor and the Empire and Everyone of the Good Guyz isn't dead Runelords, it's runelords with apprentices passing on their stuff.
If your answer to "How do we preserve the secrets of our ancestors" is kill the current generation so the nex one is better, your solution is terrible. Like, the High King just changed his opinion. Consider that.
Why isn't Thorek trying to convince them to pass on their secrets /find worthy apprentices, instead of contributing to the problem by killing what little Runelore is left? We should be trying to preserve Runes, not get those that carry them killed. This should be obvious.
This is a stupid, Grudge Dwarf solution. Don't help him.
And that's being charitable and not calling it an assassination attempt on his competition.
Remember, he is the rare politically savvy dawi.
The right solution is to convince them they are wrong, if not about the lost Karag, then about passing on the Runes. Turning them Slayer just makes the Runelore forever lost. That's only a victory for Thorek as he removes competition and makes himself and his students more prominent and indispensable.
That's not good for anyone, or the Waystones. Hell, by doing this we're removing the very people that may be hoarding said Waystone knowledge instead of trying to get it to work for us.
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@Jyn Ryvia making the argument that we are selfish or hypocrites would perhaps be easier if the good of the Waystone project were not concerned with literally saving the world, just saying.
One assumes the Runesmith's Guild exists on the same planet yes?
On a more serious note, I do not think calls for reform are all about the project, we genuinely want to see reform in many areas of the Karaz Ankor. If Thorek was proposing to use our help to say curb the power of the Engineers you bet there would be more serious push-back against it.
One assumes the Runesmith's Guild exists on the same planet yes?
On a more serious note, I do not think calls for reform are all about the project, we genuinely want to see reform in many areas of the Karaz Ankor. If Thorek was proposing to use our help to say curb the power of the Engineers you bet there would be more serious push-back against it.
No, he won't be, because Mathilde will be feigning reluctance
Yep, if Mathilde acts like arranging these things will be a hardship to her (but goes through with it anyway), then not only will Thorek think his price has a high value, but he'll be reluctant to push us for more favours afterwards without giving us a little something extra in return.
Of course, Thorek is politically savvy, so he probably expects us to do that anyway, and we know he expects it of us, but we do it anyway because that's how this game called politics works.
How the hell do you propose to convince a hoary old dwarf of the most hoary and old dwarf guild, cult and clan to fundamentally change their entire approach to their craft? Stonebread cookies? Unless you assume that all of them are going to turn slayer from this, some runesmiths with lesser knowledge passing things on is better than none. All runesmiths passing on their lore is a thing of such surpassing optimism that you might as well call for an alliance with Ulthuan.
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Thorek saw our work with the Vita. The Tower, and Vlag. Call it luck, call it skill, call it fate, but we get results wherever we're sent. We're a cat that comes back with mice, only the mice are forbidden and forgotten wonders.